Seanchan animals are overrated.

[Charlz Guybon]

Seanchan animals are overrated, and won't perform against shadowspawn as well as advertised. The big white book implies that the absense of Trollocs in Seanchan is due mainly to the introduction of these creatures from the portal stone worlds, but I find this doubtful. From what we know of these animals it doesn't seem like they'd provide that much of a trump card.

 

The only ones to live up to their billing would be the raken, and to'raken. Their ability to scout enemy forces is certainly unparalleled among any preindustrial army.

 

The Torm, which would seem to be most useful in actual battle (and the most numerous of any exotics we've seen) have a huge handicap. They are used primarily as cavalry scouts because prolonged exposure to battle will send them into a killing frenzy, and they will be uncontrollable for hours. So for actual battle against Trollocs, war horses are far more useful. Torm send horses, untrained for their presence into a frenzy, but I doubt that a Myrddraal's horse will be bothered by them.

 

Grolm, although we've mostly seen them used as guard animals, can be used in battle against light armored opponents, however their low numbers makes it unlikely that enough of them could be assembled in any one place to make a significant impact.

 

Lopar, though extremely formidible, have been seen this side of the ocean in far fewer numbers than even the Grolm.

 

The Crolm while useful as trackers, are not so useful in battle.

 

The Seanchan seem to use Elephants more for moving heavy loads than for battle, and the size difference between them and Trollocs is smaller than between Elephants and men.

 

Over all, Seanchan exotics seem to have far more utility in fighting human armies that lack them than in fighting armies of Shadowspawn.  The lack of Shadowspawn in Seanchan is more likely attributable to the distance and seperation via ocean from the Great Blight and the Dark One's center of power at Shayol Ghul.

[RobertAlexWillis]

While I'm sure that the Seanchan generals can alleviate some of those problems with good tactical use, I pretty much agree with that assessment in general.  Of course, some of those animals are in very low relative concentration in Randland.  In larger numbers, the Grolm in particular could be quite formidable.

[Gentled Ben]

Torm send horses, untrained for their presence into a frenzy, but I doubt that a Myrddraal's horse will be bothered by them.

 

But we don't know that, nor do we know how trollocs react to them. They don't like bodies of water, after all; maybe they don't like grolm, either. We've also never seen a lopar pair off against a trolloc. The fight may be quite lopsided. After all, a wolverine will beat the tar out of a bear. Who's to say that a lopar isn't far more than a match for a trolloc, and if the trollocs become frightened of something, then the myrddraal will have to flog them to get them to go near it, and the whole force becomes less effective. Also, if the breeding pens are destroyed, that goes a long way toward exterminating them, and as it was pointed out, raken can fly. That would help in finding and reaching the pens where the females are kept.

 

In Randland, the trollocs were eventually driven back to the Blight at the end of the Trolloc Wars by human armies and Aes Sedai, despite the destruction of most of the great cities and many of the nations of that time. Still, the human armies and their Aes Sedai counterparts to the Dreadlords won. How much better might human armies, Aes Sedai, and Seanchan exotics fare across the ocean, where there's no evidence that Ishamael was lending the trollocs a hand, like he was in Randland, and where it's clear that they (the Aes Sedai in Seanchan) were bent on a process of extermination, as evidenced by their gathering of the exotic, other-worldly creatures?

 

All that being said, I think you make a good point, Charlz. They likely are overrated, as they couldn't have done the job by themselves, as they seem to be given credit for. Obviously, channelers brought them here, so one would have to assume that those channelers helped in the extermination process.

 

[Lee Ward]

Picture damane with sul'dam, of course, riding around on raken way up in the air where they could see for miles. Demolishing everything they see. That sounds pretty formiddable to me but with out damane they are basically only good for scouts and transport.

[Digbe]

Elephants are also scared of blood-- courtesy of discovery channel

 

I think they are overrated in the BWB, but underrated in the real books.  I ask this question:  What is the approximate kill count of seanchan beasts during this sequence of the current age? Now compare that with how much actual description time RJ lends his pencil to.  Anthing else has a relatively dismal stat.  The more kills, the more description of character.

 

Personally, I would like to see an army of Shadar Haran's running around and throwing civilians into the ways. I don't really know ho that fits anywhere but it was a thought and there you have it.

[drovja]

The Torm, which would seem to be most useful in actual battle (and the most numerous of any exotics we've seen) have a huge handicap. They are used primarily as cavalry scouts because prolonged exposure to battle will send them into a killing frenzy, and they will be uncontrollable for hours. So for actual battle against Trollocs, war horses are far more useful. Torm send horses, untrained for their presence into a frenzy, but I doubt that a Myrddraal's horse will be bothered by them.

 

It seems like in the initial push against the Shadowspawn after the Breaking, when there were relatively few humans in Seanchan and Shadowspawn were numerous, the Torm would have been ripping through the Trollocs and such. The killing frenzy would be an aid in this type of fight, as they would likely be outnumbered, but would have no humans (in my mind they fought initially without human control) to be endangered.

 

Over all, Seanchan exotics seem to have far more utility in fighting human armies that lack them than in fighting armies of Shadowspawn.  The lack of Shadowspawn in Seanchan is more likely attributable to the distance and seperation via ocean from the Great Blight and the Dark One's center of power at Shayol Ghul.

 

The Great Blight is no further from Seanchan than it is Randland, but I would probably agree that the directive forces from Shayol Ghul were farther removed and so less focused on that area. I do definitely agree, however, that they are very effective against the general armies in Randland without them.

[TheRedSon]

To me it seems the most effective thing about their animals is that Randlanders are afraid of them.  I wouldn't be surprised if Trollocs also feared them, but I can't picture a Fade running away in fear from an elephant.  In fact, they'd best not use elephants fighting a Fade...

[Kura]

The torm's killing frenzy could be utilized quite nicely though. With the addition of gateways, just send a rather large amount into the middle of a trolloc army, or to the front lines while the humans stay back. They tear everything up, and the humans come in and assist them, particularly with channeling.

 

I haven't read the BWB (though am looking for a copy), and don't know the actual concentration of them in randland, but again with the addition of gateways seanchan's store could be accessed, and I feel quite confident when I say tat I beleive that a few dozen Torm lost isn't much compared to the damage they would do, and the actual human/channeler lives saved by sacrificing them.

 

But on the whole, yeah, most of the exotics don't seem to useful with their concentration or some other drawback.

[Luckers]

Concidering an attack is about to be launched entirely by use of those animals against the Tower, i'd say they are somewhat effective. Of course, by themselves they would not be enough to sustain a war--the core of the Ever Victorious Army is still its human components. Even the damane would ultimately fail without the backing of the large armed forces backing them.

[Charlz Guybon]

 

 

The Great Blight is no further from Seanchan than it is Randland, but I would probably agree that the directive forces from Shayol Ghul were farther removed and so less focused on that area. I do definitely agree, however, that they are very effective against the general armies in Randland without them.

??? The Great Blight is directly north of Randland proper. There's an ocean separating it from Seanchan. Unless your suggesting that Trolloc armies could march across the Ice-cap to reinforce Seanchan?

[Charlz Guybon]

The torm's killing frenzy could be utilized quite nicely though. With the addition of gateways, just send a rather large amount into the middle of a trolloc army, or to the front lines while the humans stay back. They tear everything up, and the humans come in and assist them, particularly with channeling.

 

I haven't read the BWB (though am looking for a copy), and don't know the actual concentration of them in randland, but again with the addition of gateways seanchan's store could be accessed, and I feel quite confident when I say tat I beleive that a few dozen Torm lost isn't much compared to the damage they would do, and the actual human/channeler lives saved by sacrificing them.

 

But on the whole, yeah, most of the exotics don't seem to useful with their concentration or some other drawback.

 

Not the soundest of military doctrine. That's pretty suicidal and not how one should be using superior cavalry.

[fireblade]

Trollocs in my opinion are great big sissys. thier scared of almost anything, like water. If they cant swim have Ba'alzamon give them swimming lessons.

[drovja]

Not the soundest of military doctrine. That's pretty suicidal and not how one should be using superior cavalry.

They're not cavalry unless there are soldiers mounted. Without that, they're simply dangerous animals who could kill until they are killed.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The Great Blight is directly north of Randland proper. There's an ocean separating it from Seanchan. Unless your suggesting that Trolloc armies could march across the Ice-cap to reinforce Seanchan?

 

Actually, the Blight extends across the northern end of the Seanchan continent as well.  Think of the Blight as more of an ecology type than a geographical feature.  There is no direct land connection to Shayol Ghul, but the northernmost parts of Seanchan are covered by the Blight.

 

It is a much quieter Blight, though.  Whatever Trollocs and Myrddraal are there don't stir up much trouble (I know that Turak said the Trollocs in Seanchan had been eliminated, but people in Illian think they are fairy tales.  Just because Turak believes it, doesn't mean it is so.)

 

They're not cavalry unless there are soldiers mounted. Without that, they're simply dangerous animals who could kill until they are killed.

 

They don't exist in Randland in large enough numbers to make that sort of strategy statistically signifigant, or useful.  And if they did, getting a frenzied herd that size back under control would be more costly than it was worth, unless you were going to write off the whole herd.  Either way. it would indeed be a poor military decision.

 

[Luckers]

Actually, the Blight extends across the northern end of the Seanchan continent as well.  Think of the Blight as more of an ecology type than a geographical feature.  There is no direct land connection to Shayol Ghul, but the northernmost parts of Seanchan are covered by the Blight.

 

There is, actually. The polar icecap connects to both landmasses. Nevertheless, you are correct about everything else.

 

It is a much quieter Blight, though.  Whatever Trollocs and Myrddraal are there don't stir up much trouble (I know that Turak said the Trollocs in Seanchan had been eliminated, but people in Illian think they are fairy tales.  Just because Turak believes it, doesn't mean it is so.)

 

To be fair, in the BWB it also states that Trollocs and Myrdraal have been wiped out in Seanchan, though it mentions that there are still some draghkar.

 

 

 

[drovja]

They don't exist in Randland in large enough numbers to make that sort of strategy statistically signifigant, or useful.  And if they did, getting a frenzied herd that size back under control would be more costly than it was worth, unless you were going to write off the whole herd.  Either way. it would indeed be a poor military decision.

 

As far as it goes, I was only thinking about them wiping out the initial shadowspawn in Seanchan, not in the aspect of invading army. I'm probably not thinking about this in the same way as everyone else though, based on the other responses.

[RobertAlexWillis]

To be fair, in the BWB it also states that Trollocs and Myrdraal have been wiped out in Seanchan, though it mentions that there are still some draghkar.

 

I know.  But, to be fair, the BWB is occasionally full of crap too.

 

I'm not saying I have proof that there are still Trollocs and Myrddraal there.  I'm just saying it wouldn't shock me if a few still turned out to be there.

[Luckers]

Fair enough, i just feel that given that the Seanchan don't hold Shadowspawn to be myths--the acknoeldge that such creatures DID exist at one stage--that were a Trolloc or Myrdraal encountered, it would be brought to the Court of the Nine Moons as a curioso.

[Gentled Ben]

I wonder if the Crystal Throne ter'angreal would inspire awe in a myrddraal. If it did, would it swear fealty to the Empress? Could it? If so, how would they determine its honor? It has no eyes to raise or lower, after all.  :-\

 

Yes, I'm joking, but only about the last part...