Dune & WoT

[nikhil81]

Hello all,

I was wondering as to where exactly to post this and figured this was as good a place as any...enough preamble. I guess the only way I will be able to get your opinion on this is if you have read Dune by Frank Herbert. If you have, then does anyone else see these connections? I am in no way implying any kind of copying or borrowing of ideas...just curious if anyone else felt this way...

 

Aiel=Fremen

 

Aes Sedai=Bene Gesserit

 

Of course the various Houses from both series carry some similarities also...your thoughts boys and girls?

[DragonSpawn]

The Protagonist: The main character of Dune, the first novel, is Paul Atreides, a young man of noble birth who comes to realize (or believe) that he is the prophesied leader/saviour of a group of people (the Fremen). Apart from that, he gains political power and influence throughout the Universe as a whole. (He becomes Emporer, in fact.) Although later books in the series extend thousands of years beyond Paul's lifetime, it still

deals with his descendants, and direct influences from his time, so he can still be seen as an influential figure in the series as a whole, even though he's not, strictly speaking, the main character throughout the whole series.

 

The main character of WoT is Rand al'Thor, a young man of simple birth (aha! a difference) who comes to realize (or is led to believe) that he is the prophesied saviour of all of humanity (the Dragon Reborn), as well as the leader of a group of people (the Aiel.)

 

The Desert People: In Dune, Paul eventually comes to be accepted as leader of the Fremen, the nomadic people of the desert planet Arrakis. The Fremen are an ancient, fierce, little-known-to-outsiders culture with their own traditions and secret origins that go back thousands of years in the past. In WoT, Rand eventually comes to be accepted as the leader of the Aiel, the nomadic people of the desert-like region known as the Aiel Wastes. The Aiel are an ancient, fierce, little-known-to-outsiders culture with their own traditions and secret origins that go back thousands of years in the past.

 

The Secretive, Powerful Female Group: In Dune, a sisterhood known as the Bene Gesserit forms an influential and secretive group. They have rigorous training, a hierarchy structure, and powers that few others have or understand. (They can control their bodies down to the most minute cells and chemical structures, for example, and can influence or outright control others through vocal suggestion, a talent called "The Voice".) The Bene Gesserit are often mistrusted by others and are called "witches".

 

In WoT, a sisterhood known as the Aes Sedai forms an influential and secretive group. They have rigorous training, a hierarchical structure, and powers that few others have or understand. (The Aes Sedai are women who, for all intents and purposes, are either innately born to or can be trained in the use of "magic".) The Aes Sedai are often mistrusted by others and are called "witches".

 

The Dual Role of the Protagonist: In Dune, Paul is both the leader of the Fremen, and the "Kwisatz Haderach", essentially a male Bene Gesserit who can employ powers and training that the female Bene Gesserit can use, but can also "look into a place that no woman can look".

 

In WoT, Rand is both the leader or "Car'a'carn" ("Chief of Chiefs") of the Aiel, and the "Dragon Reborn", the reincarnation of a soul fated or prophesied to fight the last battle. He is in many ways the male equivalent of an Aes Sedai; he too was born with the innate ability to use "magic", but a male form of it that is fearful and alien to the female Aes Sedai.

 

A World Filled With Powerful Groups and Cultures: The Universe of Dune is filled with many powerful planets, groups, cultures, a noble structure (including noble families or "Houses" who rule various planets), and alliances. One such group, the Bene Tleilax, are religious extremists who are especially fearful and mistrustful of the Bene Gesserit.

 

The world in which WoT takes place is filled with many powerful nations, groups, cultures, a noble structure (including noble "Houses" who rule various nations), and alliances. One such group, the Children of the Light, are crusaders and religious extremists who are especially fearful and mistrustful of the Aes Sedai.

 

 

The rearrangement of power bases: Both Rand al'Thor and Paul Atreides change the fundamental political power in thier worlds. Paul brings the Emperor to his knees and Rand runs around collecting nations like a kid in a candy store, forging his own empire in the process. Just as Paul denies the power and integrity of the Bene Gesserit, so does Rand refuse to be yoked by the White Tower.

 

ancestral memory: Just as Muad'Dib and Leto II have all the memories of their ancestors jiggling around in thier melons after being exposed to the Water of Life, so does Mat Cauthon (Mat's metamorphosis exhibits a mirror-shattering resemblance to Odin). After hanging from the Tree of Life at Rhuidean he is imbued with memories from the Age of Legends, most of them having to do with Manetheren, the nation once occupying his homeland, and an assortment of colorful metaphors that no one understands anymore, except maybe Birgitte and some of the Forsaken.

 

The spice melange and the One Power: The spice melange is a drug which gives it's user amplified powers of perception and has geriatric properties, it's also necessary for the powers of ftl space travel, precognition, and the abilities of mentats. It's more addictive than heroin, and the users die without it.

 

The One Power is a force that can be tapped by certain people, granting them sorcerous abilities. While wielding it, it grants the user amplified powers of perception. Those who use the power often live for over a century and, in many cases, longer i.e. it's geriatric. People who wield the power become extremely addicted to the true source and long to tap it. Those who are stilled and can no longer touch the source usually die of sadness or live in misery.

 

3rd person omniscient perspective: The books of both series are written from the same viewpoint. 3rd person with a shifting point of view, sometimes looking through the eyes of the protagonists and sometimes the enemies. Though there is always a key character around which the story revolves, they are also both ensembles, with no real starring role. Whatever the viewpoint, you're privy to the thoughts and feelings of whoever you're following, including all their biases. Both series, especially WOT are fraught with dramatic irony and foreshadowing and both display complex, intertwining relationships between the main characters.

 

 

 

 

Robert Jordan clearly took the idea of an independent desert culture for Frank Herbert's Dune series. There are a few minor differences - probably the bare minimum to guarantee no possibility of copyright law infliction - but not enough.

 

The Aiel have cadin'sor, which is significantly different than the Fremen stillsuits. The Aiel have life a little easier, since open water is still somewhat of a reality where they live. And, to Jordan's credit, the Aiel have a complicated system of clan and sept that is in no way challenged by the Fremen sietch system. Perhaps the biggest difference is the fact that Fremen are fugitives in their own land; the House Harkonnen and the Space Guild were both trying to control them. The spice melange is another difference; there is no such substance in The Wheel of Time series. In the Dune series, Arrakis is a totally separate planet from the rest of the universe, while in tWoT, the Aiel Waste is merely separated from the rest of humanity by The Spine of the World.

 

Both are cultures based heavily on tradition and strength of mind and body. Both are the superior fighters of their respective worlds, having been trained in the desert. Because of their desert living conditions, both people would fight and die for absurdly small amounts of water. Both have a sort of sacred place; for the Aiel, it's Rhuidean, and for the Fremen, it's the far southern desert ("twenty thumpers south"). Both peoples have a philosophy - a higher power placed them in their situation in order to ascertain their loyalty.

 

Although there are more differences in minor things, the fundamental elements of the cultures remain suspiciously similar. I understand that it must be difficult creating an entirely unique world from scratch, but I get the feeling Jordan wasn't trying too hard.

 

 

 

 

[nikhil81]

Break it down brother man!! Seriously though, I really enjoyed Dune I read upto God Emperor of Dune and you were pretty much right on the money bout everything...what did you think bout the novels???

[Werthead]

The similarities are there and can be identified pretty readily. That said, this may be because RJ went to the same source rather than ripped Herbert off: both the Aiel and Fremen are clearly drawn from the Bedouin and other assorted desert cultures. Scott Bakker has been quite open about using some of the same archetypes as Dune in his excellent Prince of Nothing Trilogy, and it doesn't detract from the quality of the books.

 

As for the Dune series itself: Dune is brilliant, Dune Messiah is okay, Children of Dune is pretty good, God-Emperor of Dune is pretty tedious (the Crossroads of Twilight of the series), Heretics of Dune is good and Chapterhouse: Dune is enjoyable apart from the cliffhanger ending (understandable since the author died shortly after finishing it). The Prelude to Dune Trilogy by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson is readable but a bit flat. The Legends of Dune Trilogy is unreadable garbage. The two new books following on from Chapterhouse: Dune are even worse.

[Tenshin_Xo]

I started the series under the impression that I was reading a sci-fi story that was mostly plausible, and meant as a way to examine the politics of self interest vs the politics of a community.  Because I assumed that it was meant to be more or less realistic, I initially felt like I was watching the decline of the authors mind into dementia.  Once I got over that, and read it as a sci-fi/fantasy series, it wasn't bad, though the first book is by far the best.  After and including God-Emporer, though there is a noticeable decline in quality.

[Cadsuane]

I read Dune the first time when I was 10 or 12, which I have to say was far too young to really appreciate the themes of the series. Reading it again at 21 was much better! I agree that the first few are better than the last few, but I think it was originally intended to be a trilogy, and then he added the second set of three later? I don't remember where I read that, so I may be wrong. To anyone who is going to read these - buy the first one and proceed slowly. You may want to stop before you finish the series, so it's best to purchase one at a time.

[DragonSpawn]

The thing which I love about Dune, at least the original first books, is that they all have a message and deeper meaning.

 

    The first book warns about having your whole civilization dependent on one raw material. This is an obvious reference to our civilizations dependency for fossil fuels. It also touches the theme of the power of religious fervor, which is later explained deeper in Dune: Messiah.

 

    The second/third books warn against organized religion and it´s succeptibility to corruption. How the original message can be lost. How in the end the very priests who worship Paul as their savior are the one´s who kill him. It also goes about the topic of change in society. How when technology goes ahead of the user (The Fremen starting to be surrounded by a lush and green planet, but still not quite ready to leave the desert). Also it talks about how one can lose control of what one built up himself. Paul likens this to his Jihad which killed over 100 billion already throughout the universe, saying even though the armies cry his name when they kill the enemy and worship him. He himself is unable to stop it, powerless to stop the machine he created. If he would command them to stop, they would claim that the Messiah Paul was showing infinite mercy and lament him for his saint likeness/innocence not to cause harm, but would still continue the slaughtering and conquering of planets. So all people would accept Paul as their Messiah. He later compares himself to certain other world leaders of the past and wonders if they like him lost control of their own creations, i.e he mentions hitler and a few others. One other major theme in these two books is human weakness. Paul even though he was the chosen one, the Messiah. He is too weak to properly follow the path that destiny laid out for him. He sees the price as too expensive. In the end he steps down from power, and later comes back as a mad preacher. Who denounces everything he once did as wrong. Only to be later killed by his former priests who see him as a heretic. When it becomes known who the preacher really was, riots ensue that almost destabilize the Empire, priests are being massacred and the organized religion falters.

 

  The fourth book, God Emperor, is often the most missunderstood one. The God Emperor was originally supposed to be Paul (due to his uberhuman powers to see the future, etc..), but when Paul refused. His son was born with the same abilities. Originally in Paul´s visions he was only to have a daughter. It is his son which continues and does what his father was too weak to do. He goes through a painful metamorphisis to enable him to leave for thousands of years. And so he rules the Empire with an iron fist for millenia. This book concentrates on the problems of having an absolute dictator who is seen as a god. Despite being benevolent, ensuring no one ever starves again, having a golden age of peace. The problem is how does a God die without taking his people with him? If a God commits suicide, so will his fervent followers. So in the end after he has ensured his golden path to the survival of humanity as was his destiny. He decides the only way for a God to die, is to be seen as an imposter God and killed. So he himself creates a rebellion to ensure his own assassination, by someone he himself manipulated to do so, etc.. etc.. Also there are a few other smaller themes.

 

  Ran out of time to further flesh it out. Oh well maybe I will do a bit more later.