Can Moraine unweave a web?

[Guest cwestervelt]

Robert, since you were not the only person suggesting she used a weave to eliminate the residue, I was not directly the comments specifically to you.  I am however being serious.  Arguments that a weave can be used to eliminate the residue left by another weave are laughable.  Suddenly we have a Weave that can not only eliminate the residue left by another weave, but its own as well.  Not only that but it is known only be one person, and never seen again.  I wouldn't go around telling others to be serious while making a claim like that one.

[Luckers]

Honestly i fall more toward Robert's interpretation... that Moiraine used some method to specifically destroy the residue, and that this method is different to unweaving. That being said i do not see any specific evidence that they could not be the same thing, considering we have no real knowledge as to what Moiraine was up to, or whether ther weave was still held.

 

So yes, i concider Robert's more likely, but both are possible.

 

Either way my guess is that it was one of Moiraine's tricks... or at least a blue secret. The arguments about what the Aes Sedi in PoD knew seems largely counterproductive in light of such Aes Sedai secrecy.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Not only that but it is known only be one person, and never seen again.  I wouldn't go around telling others to be serious while making a claim like that one.

 

Yes ... because we've never seen an Aes Sedai do something like that before.  You know, come up with a method, and then hide it from everyone else.  That would be like, oh, I don't know, Verin Mathwin devising a cobbled together form of Complusion and keeping it secret.  I mean, she would never do that!  ::)

 

Yes, Aes Sedai in general, and Moiraine specifically, are noted as being forthcoming, and very generous with potentially useful information, especially the kind that could be potentially used against them.

 

Explanatory note: In the interest of clarity let me state that the entire response you've just read is in a distinctly sardonic vein.  Verin did, actually, discover and keep secret a method of Compulsion; Aes Sedai generally, and Moiraine specifically, keep secrets from each other all the time.  A method of covering your tracks from other Sisters, even the rare ones who can read residues, would certainly be information likely to fall under the category of "valuable secret".  Especially since those Sisters are likely to be Red Ajah, Moiraine's enemies in the Tower, who routinely use the ability to detect residues in order to track men who can channel.  Incidentally, they use a weave specifically designed to detect residues of saidin ... so we know for a fact that weaves can be designed specifically to interact with residues.  It is not unreasonable to presume, given Moiraine's recorded actions, and her stated explanation of them, that she is aware of and used a weave that interacts in such as way as to eliminate the residues, including its own.

[Guest cwestervelt]

For the most part, the secret/private weaves we have seen have been simple tricks.  Things that get a wow that's neat reaction but are mostly curiosities.

 

Verin pieced together a form of Compulsion based on information she gathered from Wilders who came to the Tower.  She then kept it secret because the Tower would more than likely have Stilled her for simploy for figuring out how to do it.  That is basic self-preservation on her part.  There is a big difference between that and Moiraine coming up with a highly beneficial weave and then keeping it secret without reason.  On the contrary, as this supposed Weave could potentially save the lives of her Sisters, she would have shared it.

[Luckers]

That's an assumption, and a contradictory one, since irrespective of Tower Law there are obviously situations that compulsion would save sisters lives.

 

To date the secret weaves we've encountered have hardly been simply. A method of evesdropping, a method of compulsion, a method of turning oneself invisible....

 

Frankly, Aes Sedai seem to hide anything they learn that was not taught in training. All of those weaves would prove useful to other sister, and none are passed on.

 

Nope, Robert seems exactly on the tee with this.

[Guest cwestervelt]

There is just the little fact that Compulsion is, if not outright banned, the next thing to it.  Neither is Compulsion a new concept.  Arguing that it could also be used to save lives but is still banned just indicates that the end does not justify the means.

 

Looks like this has reached an impasse.

 

You aren't going to convince me that Moiraine knew another secret weave that no one else did.  Too worn out of a catch all explanation.  Too valuable of a weave to hide.  Too likely that, over the course of 10 more books, someone else would have at least known about Moiraine being able to do it.

 

I won't be able to convince anyone who hasn't already come to the conclusion themselves that she must have unraveled the weave.  You can't get past the differences between how Moiraine and Aviendha choose to describe what they did.  To me, slight differences in perspective are outweighed by the fact that 10 books later, we have only seen one way of dealing with residue.

[Jonn]

The way I've always thought of residues is that they are like fog caused by pressure and moisture, or smoke left after a fire, or vapor left over from a chemical reaction or process.

 

There are means to hide or sweep away evidence of an action without leaving more traces of what was there before you cleaned up. If anything you may leave clues that you cleaned up, but if you are careful you could leave so little clue that by the time snyone figures it out, you'd be long gone, or too far away to do anything about it.

 

If these residues can be compared to things of a physical nature like smoke, you can move particles and residues from one place to another if you have the tools to do so. There will be traces for those with a keen talent for detection to read, but it's much better than to leave the body of evidence alone and intact to be read in the open undisturbed.

 

If there were something like a cloud or film that hangs in the air, and I wanted to get rid of it, I could get sort of a vaccuum and try to suck up the residue and hide it in a compact space out of sight or in some way where it can decay in a less detectable manner.

 

Likewise, if I sweep the floor up to take away dirt and debris, it wouldn't make sense that I would just sweep up a pile of rubbish, and leave the broom lying in the middle of the floor to be seen by anyone. That's the whole point of concealment.

 

So despite the fact that we don't know exactly what it was that moiraine did, we can conclude that whatever it was, it was designed to hide EVERYTHING she did at the site.

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

You aren't going to convince me that Moiraine knew another secret weave that no one else did.  Too worn out of a catch all explanation.  Too valuable of a weave to hide.

 

While I'm sure I won't convince you, I am a little stupefied that you would say it is "Too valuable a weave to hide."  The very reason it is likely to be hidden is that it is so valuable, as tool of deception.  The eavesdropping weave Luckers mentioned is a perfect example.  Its value lies in its potential for use against others.  The same applies to this weave.  Its very value is the reason it would be kept secret.

 

Additionally, there are reasons why Moiraine would know "another secret weave": she's been in the field against the Shadow longer than almost any Aes Sedai, she is extremely intelligent and dextrous with the Power, and she is among the strongest the Tower had, at the time of this incident (meaning that lack of strength would not be a serious limiting factor).  Necessity is the mother of invention, and Moiraine has been putting herself into the jaws of necessity since the events of New Spring.

 

As to the objections based in the idea that any residue removing weave would have to leave its own residue:

 

"Residues" are residual information left over by weaves created in the area.  They can be detected and interpreted by someone with that Talent or by someone using a weave designed for that purpose. 

 

In much the same way, computer programs leave "residues" of deleted information that can be read and interpreted by someone with the right knowledge or tools.  However, there are computer programs designed in such as way that they not only eliminate such "residues" of leftover program bits, but also remove any vestige of themselves from the record.  It is not inconcievable ... not even unlikely ... that a weave could be designed to do the same type of thing. 

[Luckers]

You aren't going to convince me that Moiraine knew another secret weave that no one else did.  Too worn out of a catch all explanation.

 

Just to be clear cwestervelt, is your argument that Moiraine can't have known a secret weave because she has hidden too many weaves in the past?

 

That seems to me like saying a suspect in a murder couldn't have done the deed because he is a vicious murderer.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Additionally, there are reasons why Moiraine would know "another secret weave": she's been in the field against the Shadow longer than almost any Aes Sedai, she is extremely intelligent and dextrous with the Power, and she is among the strongest the Tower had, at the time of this incident (meaning that lack of strength would not be a serious limiting factor).  Necessity is the mother of invention, and Moiraine has been putting herself into the jaws of necessity since the events of New Spring.

 

Which by the way, happens to be why I would suspect Moiraine taught herself to unravel a Weave.

 

You aren't going to convince me that Moiraine knew another secret weave that no one else did.  Too worn out of a catch all explanation.

 

Just to be clear cwestervelt, is your argument that Moiraine can't have known a secret weave because she has hidden too many weaves in the past?

 

That seems to me like saying a suspect in a murder couldn't have done the deed because he is a vicious murderer.

 

No Luckers, I'm saying that the secret weave is becoming too much of a favorite explanation among posters on Dragonmount for everything out of ordinary that happens in the books.

[Charlz Guybon]

Not only that but it is known only be one person, and never seen again.  I wouldn't go around telling others to be serious while making a claim like that one.

 

Yes ... because we've never seen an Aes Sedai do something like that before.  You know, come up with a method, and then hide it from everyone else.  That would be like, oh, I don't know, Verin Mathwin devising a cobbled together form of Complusion and keeping it secret.  I mean, she would never do that!  ::)

 

Yes, Aes Sedai in general, and Moiraine specifically, are noted as being forthcoming, and very generous with potentially useful information, especially the kind that could be potentially used against them.

 

Explanatory note: In the interest of clarity let me state that the entire response you've just read is in a distinctly sardonic vein.  Verin did, actually, discover and keep secret a method of Compulsion; Aes Sedai generally, and Moiraine specifically, keep secrets from each other all the time.  A method of covering your tracks from other Sisters, even the rare ones who can read residues, would certainly be information likely to fall under the category of "valuable secret".  Especially since those Sisters are likely to be Red Ajah, Moiraine's enemies in the Tower, who routinely use the ability to detect residues in order to track men who can channel.  Incidentally, they use a weave specifically designed to detect residues of saidin ... so we know for a fact that weaves can be designed specifically to interact with residues.  It is not unreasonable to presume, given Moiraine's recorded actions, and her stated explanation of them, that she is aware of and used a weave that interacts in such as way as to eliminate the residues, including its own.

 

Occam's Razor suggests that Moraine's trick is something we've seen again in the story rather than a one time demonstration of an amazing ability that's never been referenced again.

[bcxanth]

The big problem, in my opinion, with the whole "weave to get rid of residues" theory, is that it's counter-productive to Moir's goal. She says she wants to erase all trace of what had been done there. I assume this means that she wants to make sure no residues are left behind for any Fades to find and know an AS is in the area. They are in the Blight after all, and trying to sneak through without drawing attention. So if she used weave #2 to get rid of weave #1, then what would she use to get rid of the residue of weave #2?  She'd end up in a never ending process of using one residue-erasing weave to get rid of the residue from the last one.

 

However if she unravels it, she leaves no residue behind at all.

[Guest cwestervelt]

The big problem, in my opinion, with the whole "weave to get rid of residues" theory, is that it's counter-productive to Moir's goal. She says she wants to erase all trace of what had been done there. I assume this means that she wants to make sure no residues are left behind for any Fades to find and know an AS is in the area. They are in the Blight after all, and trying to sneak through without drawing attention. So if she used weave #2 to get rid of weave #1, then what would she use to get rid of the residue of weave #2?  She'd end up in a never ending process of using one residue-erasing weave to get rid of the residue from the last one.

 

However if she unravels it, she leaves no residue behind at all.

 

Tried pointing that out.  They didn't buy into it.  Rather, they accused my of not taking the discussion seriously.

[bcxanth]

The big problem, in my opinion, with the whole "weave to get rid of residues" theory, is that it's counter-productive to Moir's goal. She says she wants to erase all trace of what had been done there. I assume this means that she wants to make sure no residues are left behind for any Fades to find and know an AS is in the area. They are in the Blight after all, and trying to sneak through without drawing attention. So if she used weave #2 to get rid of weave #1, then what would she use to get rid of the residue of weave #2?  She'd end up in a never ending process of using one residue-erasing weave to get rid of the residue from the last one.

 

However if she unravels it, she leaves no residue behind at all.

 

Tried pointing that out.  They didn't buy into it.  Rather, they accused my of not taking the discussion seriously.

Sorry, I must have missed that while trying to get caught up.  Not sure how that means you're not taking the discussion seriously. I think it's a perfectly valid point.

[keith_rogers_irl]

Well, the reason she is "sweeping away" the residue left by her Light Bending weave is because no other Aes Sedai (that we know of) know it. The residue of the clensing left behind wouldn't exactly matter because the initial weave would be gone. I'm not sure if this actually makes sense to anyone but myself o_O

[bcxanth]

Well, the reason she is "sweeping away" the residue left by her Light Bending weave is because no other Aes Sedai (that we know of) know it. The residue of the clensing left behind wouldn't exactly matter because the initial weave would be gone. I'm not sure if this actually makes sense to anyone but myself o_O

Why would she be sweeping it away so that other AS can't get the weave?  She's in the middle of the Blight after all.  It's not like many AS would be taking an evening stroll through there and happen to stumble upon a residue.  It makes far more sense that she's getting rid of the residue in order to keep any Fades from finding the traces of an AS in the area.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Yes, she is concerned about the Fades.  She isn't hiding what she did.  She is hiding the very fact that she used the One Power.  Leaving any form of residue defeats that.

[lou]

For the most part, the secret/private weaves we have seen have been simple tricks.  Things that get a wow that's neat reaction but are mostly curiosities.

 

Verin pieced together a form of Compulsion based on information she gathered from Wilders who came to the Tower.  She then kept it secret because the Tower would more than likely have Stilled her for simploy for figuring out how to do it.  That is basic self-preservation on her part.  There is a big difference between that and Moiraine coming up with a highly beneficial weave and then keeping it secret without reason.  On the contrary, as this supposed Weave could potentially save the lives of her Sisters, she would have shared it.

 

verin would not likely be stilled for figuring out a forbidden weave, but she would be strongly disiplined for using such a weave, not neccesarily stilled though.

[Gentled Ben]

bcxanth wrote:

However if she unravels it, she leaves no residue behind at all.

 

That is correct, however, she clearly stated that she's "removing the last vestige" of the weave, therefore, she cannot be unraveling it, as there is a residue there to be removed. It has already been left behind, hence the problem as she sees it. There is a residue there, so she is removing it. The problem we're having is that the book clearly states what she's doing, but a handful of people want to pretend that the words mean something else. They don't think that RJ could have said "preventing" if that is what he meant to show her doing, so instead, he had her say "removing," and it's up to clever people to decipher what he really meant and share it with those of us who foolishly took it at face value, what with it making perfect sense that way and all.

[bcxanth]

bcxanth wrote:

However if she unravels it, she leaves no residue behind at all.

 

That is correct, however, she clearly stated that she's "removing the last vestige" of the weave, therefore, she cannot be unraveling it, as there is a residue there to be removed. It has already been left behind, hence the problem as she sees it. There is a residue there, so she is removing it. The problem we're having is that the book clearly states what she's doing, but a handful of people want to pretend that the words mean something else. They don't think that RJ could have said "preventing" if that is what he meant to show her doing, so instead, he had her say "removing," and it's up to clever people to decipher what he really meant and share it with those of us who foolishly took it at face value, what with it making perfect sense that way and all.

So your answer then is that, given she was concerned about Fades finding the residues and knows an AD was in the area, she used a weave to remove the residue of the first one, thereby leaving a new residue behind for the second weave?

[Gentled Ben]

She doesn't say that she's using a weave; she may just be scrubbing at the residue of the old weave with Spirit or some such, like I said earlier, and Robert has already addressed the point your raising, twice now in fact, I believe.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Moiraine wasn't big on giving explanations.  In fact, several times throughout the big she tells says she has no intention of explaining what or why she does something.  As such, Mat was lucky to get what she told him.

 

Now, just assume for a moment that she did unravel her Weave, what was she going to tell them.  "We're waiting for me to finish unraveling my weave.  By the way Egwene and Nynaeve, this is a very dangerous thing to do, and you should never attempt to do it.  In fact, if you shouldn't even suggest the idea to one of my Sisters, or even mention you saw it done.  If you do mention it, you will be read the Aes Sedai riot act.  However, since I can't afford to allow any residue from what I did last night, I'm doing this extremely dangerous thing anyway."  Much quicker to simply say she is "removing the vestiges of what I did here last night."

 

And no, we are not simply trying to be clever with no regard for what she said.  We are trying to find a better explanation than the worn out secret weave routine.  Hopefully, if nothing else, you can understand how such an answer gets rather stale after awhile.  We are then saying that, based on the remainder of the books, it would be more likely that she actually used the only demonstrated technique for preventing residue.  Look at it as us thinking more along the lines of her downplaying what she truly did.  Or better yet, try seeing the "vestiges or what I did here" as referring to whatever part of the weave still remained to be undone rather than the residue.  If she did unravel the weave, she was close to done.  So what ever portion that still needed to be unravelled was a vestige.  If you can't do that, fine.  Some of us can.

 

She doesn't say that she's using a weave; she may just be scrubbing at the residue of the old weave with Spirit or some such, like I said earlier, and Robert has already addressed the point your raising, twice now in fact, I believe.

 

Ah, scrubbing at it using Spirit would require using another weave.  You can't just wave Saidar around and expect something to happen.  They need to work it into something (weave with it) to actually do anything.

 

Edit:  Oops.  I just gave Moiraine a sex change. :-[

[Digbe]

 

The Eye of the World, chapter 49, page 658

Mat: "What are we waiting for?"

 

Moraine: "For me to remove the last vestige of what I did here last night. The residues would have dissipated on their own in a day, but I will not take any risk I can avoid.

 

Simple:  Moir did not unravel a weave!!!  Geesh.  Existing residues that can be read are not A) inverted B) Reversed...(but do they leave residues?) Hmmm. Wait, thats an interesting question. Anyone want to rewrite RJ's story real quick and lemme know the answer?

 

Anyways, "removing the last vestiges" would be conducive of displacing the 'vestige' and replacing it in a new location.  Simple scattering it all around to clear the air, so to speak, would be enough.

 

As far as Moir and her inventions of such: I doubt it.  It seems as if this concept has been way overblown and a simple answer should suite our needs.

 

Perhaps her residue broom was a simple tower trick?!?  If you take several AS and Novice/Accepted all sitting around in a pow-wow training each other on new weaves; it is likely to become difficult to continue training in the classroom if someone doesn't stop to 'wipe the chalkboard'. I think that all of the residue left behind during simple tower training would warrant the need for invention.  And dispelling 'REMOVING' weave residue would do just the trick.  This theory negates the need for Moir to unravel(which isn't logical anyways but thats my opinion).  It also negates the need for this thread.  But more importantly, it exemplifies the idea that it is too easy to find yourself lost in translation while the explanation needn't trouble our thoughts.  Either way, smoke 'em if ya got 'em!

[RobertAlexWillis]

Moiraine wasn't big on giving explanations.  In fact, several times throughout the big she tells says she has no intention of explaining what or why she does something.  As such, Mat was lucky to get what she told him.

 

That is true, however, she chose to give an explanation this time, and we know that she is bound by the Oaths, so we should pay attention to the explanation she did give.  "Remove" is not the same as "undo", and someone as careful of her words as Moiraine is would know that.  The Oaths would prevent her from saying a word whose meaning did not match what she was doing.  Thats all there is to it.

 

If she did not want them to know what she was doing, she was perfectly capable of avoiding the question altogethr.  So there is no reason for her to twist words in an attempt to answer "truthfully" without conveying the truth.  She said "remove" and that is what she meant.

[Ben-Oh]

I am inclined to think Moiraine was removing the residue, but based on her words either explanation could be true. She says she is removing the "vestiges" and in the next sentence talks about residues. We assume the vestiges ARE the residues, but this is only implied.

 

However, the question is, can you unravel a weave with your eyes closed?

 

The Eye of the World, chapter 49:

... the Aes Sedai stood in the middle of the hilltop with her eyes closed, not even seeming to breathe.

 

I seem to remember you can only channel with your eyes open?