Red Warders, cue the irony.

[Charlz Guybon]

In my recent reread, I was struck by a the passage where the Reds are talking about Saml al'Seen and the other "children" at the Black Tower.

 

"Pevara," Tarna said coolly, "no children. I knew they had children here, but no children."

"Light!" Melare breathed. Her white mare sensed her agitation and tossed her head, "Certainly no children!'

"That would be an abomination," Jerazil said.

"No children," Pevara agreed.

 

Now the way Jordan operates, this strident denial stood out to me like a flashing neon sign. I don't think the Red's are going to get many takers, if any from within Taim's crew. They are the kind of men who want to be in control, and it would be risky for a darkfriend to be connected like that to someone who walks in the light.  I think young men like Saml are the only ones who will accept the Red's proposition.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

I find it quite interesting that the very sect of the WT whose purpose it was to gentle all male channelers is now bonding warders (if you can call them that).

 

The way I see it, the reds possibly saved themselves from extinction, by paving the way for them to be the intermediating force between the WT and the BT. They now have the duty of making sure the relationship between the two towers is healthy.

[Luckers]

I agree with your assessment. The only other possible variable is if Taim orders some of his men to allow themselves to be bonded.

 

Also, however, given the number limit on the amount of Asha'men that Egwene's crew could bond, and the indication that there are indeed Asha'men who desire to be bonded, i find it possible that there are older and more distinguished Asha'men who may seek out the Reds. But only possible.

[Charlz Guybon]

I agree with your assessment. The only other possible variable is if Taim orders some of his men to allow themselves to be bonded.

 

Also, however, given the number limit on the amount of Asha'men that Egwene's crew could bond, and the indication that there are indeed Asha'men who desire to be bonded, i find it possible that there are older and more distinguished Asha'men who may seek out the Reds. But only possible.

 

Why would he do that though? It puts some of his men under what is basically permanent surveillance; unless he knows which sisters are black why would he allow the possibility of discovery and interference?

[Orange Fescue]

I agree with your assessment. The only other possible variable is if Taim orders some of his men to allow themselves to be bonded.

 

Also, however, given the number limit on the amount of Asha'men that Egwene's crew could bond, and the indication that there are indeed Asha'men who desire to be bonded, i find it possible that there are older and more distinguished Asha'men who may seek out the Reds. But only possible.

 

Why would he do that though? It puts some of his men under what is basically permanent surveillance; unless he knows which sisters are black why would he allow the possibility of discovery and interference?

Perhaps, but how much can an AS tell from her bond? My impression was she could tell his direction, distance, health status (including physical sensations) and emotions but not thoughts. Also, I assumed they could compel their warders but that part didn't seem to work with warders who could channel. I seem to recall Alanna saying trying to compel Rand was like trying to move an oak tree.

[Charlz Guybon]

I agree with your assessment. The only other possible variable is if Taim orders some of his men to allow themselves to be bonded.

 

Also, however, given the number limit on the amount of Asha'men that Egwene's crew could bond, and the indication that there are indeed Asha'men who desire to be bonded, i find it possible that there are older and more distinguished Asha'men who may seek out the Reds. But only possible.

 

Why would he do that though? It puts some of his men under what is basically permanent surveillance; unless he knows which sisters are black why would he allow the possibility of discovery and interference?

Perhaps, but how much can an AS tell from her bond? My impression was she could tell his direction, distance, health status (including physical sensations) and emotions but not thoughts. Also, I assumed they could compel their warders but that part didn't seem to work with warders who could channel. I seem to recall Alanna saying trying to compel Rand was like trying to move an oak tree.

 

I thought that had more to do with him being ta'veren then his being able to channel.

 

Anyways, they'll be around each other all the time. In a battle, if an Ashaman turns on the good guys, I don't think that his Aes Sedai is just gonna stand there regardless of the consequences to herself. Of course if they're linked she'll only be able to interfere physically, but they can't remain linked forever.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

I agree with your assessment. The only other possible variable is if Taim orders some of his men to allow themselves to be bonded.

 

Also, however, given the number limit on the amount of Asha'men that Egwene's crew could bond, and the indication that there are indeed Asha'men who desire to be bonded, i find it possible that there are older and more distinguished Asha'men who may seek out the Reds. But only possible.

 

Why would he do that though? It puts some of his men under what is basically permanent surveillance; unless he knows which sisters are black why would he allow the possibility of discovery and interference?

Perhaps, but how much can an AS tell from her bond? My impression was she could tell his direction, distance, health status (including physical sensations) and emotions but not thoughts. Also, I assumed they could compel their warders but that part didn't seem to work with warders who could channel. I seem to recall Alanna saying trying to compel Rand was like trying to move an oak tree.

 

Well, if I remember correctly, there is an instance in the book when an Aes Sedai had to have her warder killed because he tried to kill her when he found out she was Black Ajah, and this was only recently after she became actively Black, so it appears to me that the bond enables some communication of thoughts.

[Charlz Guybon]

I agree with your assessment. The only other possible variable is if Taim orders some of his men to allow themselves to be bonded.

 

Also, however, given the number limit on the amount of Asha'men that Egwene's crew could bond, and the indication that there are indeed Asha'men who desire to be bonded, i find it possible that there are older and more distinguished Asha'men who may seek out the Reds. But only possible.

 

Why would he do that though? It puts some of his men under what is basically permanent surveillance; unless he knows which sisters are black why would he allow the possibility of discovery and interference?

Perhaps, but how much can an AS tell from her bond? My impression was she could tell his direction, distance, health status (including physical sensations) and emotions but not thoughts. Also, I assumed they could compel their warders but that part didn't seem to work with warders who could channel. I seem to recall Alanna saying trying to compel Rand was like trying to move an oak tree.

 

Well, if I remember correctly, there is an instance in the book when an Aes Sedai had to have her warder killed because he tried to kill her when he found out she was Black Ajah, and this was only recently after she became actively Black, so it appears to me that the bond enables some communication of thoughts.

 

IIRC it was the other way around. The warder was tracking down his Aes Sedai, he knew she was a murderer and believed (correctly) that she was Black Ajah. He wants to kill her, but she fled rather than killing him.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Okay, that only changes how she dealt with him. She fled.

 

But by that example, it does appear that the Warder could read some of her thoughts. Unless he found evidence outside of that...

[RobertAlexWillis]

The Black Sister you're thinking about is Eldrith Jhondar.  Her Warder, Kennit, tracked her to Samara because she let the masking of her bond slip.  He knew she was a murderer and Black Ajah because she was one of the 13 who left the Tower with Liandrin, all but openly proclaiming themselves Darkfriends in TDR, not from reading her thoughts. (WH, ch 10)

 

She fled because she didn't want to face the consequences of feeling her Warder's death.  He, on the other hand, is determined to kill her no matter the consuquence to himself.

 

Another example is Asne Zeramene.  She was Black Ajah, and had four Warders, but only one (Powl) was a Darkfriend, and knew of her alleigance.  (Again, WH, ch 10) 

 

So, we know that a Warder cannot read his Aes Sedai's thoughts.  And vice versa.  However, a Warder would be much more likely than anyone else to find evidence of his Aes Sedai's wrongdoing.  But in the case of Eldrith, it was common knowledge.

 

Which brings us back to Taim and the Red Ajah.  He should be happy to let several of his men be bonded.  That will place several of his own agents inside Tar Valon.  I doubt that the Red Ajah are aware of the complications involved with bonding a channeler (ie the lack of ability to Compel a Warder who is holding the Power).

 

Which is, of course, exactly what he said at the end of Knife of Dreams.  They're welcome to bond 51 men.  Not only does that make the balance uneven again (because of Rand's deal with the Rebels) but I imagine several of his men will "volunteer" to be bonded, giving him his own loyal cadre of male Dreadlords in Tar Valon.

 

So, I think the Tar Valon sisters will have no problem finding 51 men to bond.  But several of them are going to get more than they bargained for.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Hey, one question: Why didn't Eldrith just break the bond or something? Just like Moiraine did, except not pass it on?

 

After all, that way, she wouldn't be in as much danger...

 

 

[Charlz Guybon]

Hey, one question: Why didn't Eldrith just break the bond or something? Just like Moiraine did, except not pass it on?

 

After all, that way, she wouldn't be in as much danger...

 

 

 

IIRC she has to be pretty close to him to release him from the bond. Dangerously close under the circumstances.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Hey, one question: Why didn't Eldrith just break the bond or something? Just like Moiraine did, except not pass it on?

 

After all, that way, she wouldn't be in as much danger...

 

Charlz is correct.  Here's RJ's quote:

 

It is called releasing a Warder, and an Aes Sedai who is very old or injured so badly that she knows she is going to die will, if she has the strength, release him so he doesn't suffer from her death. This does require the two of them to be together, and a little more time that laying on the bond. If they are physically apart, or she doesn't have enough time or strength remaining, touch on him.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152

[lou]

taim had his chance to have "his" men bond AS, the same time logain did....taim opted out, probably to avoid surveilance.

[Darkness Incarnated]

I'm curious as to how this whole bonding thing is going to turn out. In my mind it should be something of an equal partnership, whether you're the [bonder] or the [bondee], but I doubt the AS (especially the Reds) will see it that way. Or the Asha'man for that matter, after all they are not your average run of Warders. Considering how Logain goes about his business with the two he bonded, it's not going to be easy indeed. Or how that AS with Rand stripped the sword and dragon off her Asha'man Warder; that really p**sed me off. She had no right.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

He should have channeled her Great Serpent ring right off her fingers and pinched her bottom with the OP.

 

Or at least, that is what I would have done.

[lou]

when the reds start discussing bonding the men, there was a suggestion of a "small refinement" to the bond...i believe it will be of the sort that logain uses, which is different than the traditional AS bond.

[Charlz Guybon]

when the reds start discussing bonding the men, there was a suggestion of a "small refinement" to the bond...i believe it will be of the sort that logain uses, which is different than the traditional AS bond.

 

I thought that was Romanda talking to Egwene, and Egwene forbade it. I don't recall a similar discussion with the Reds, though I wouldn't be surprised.

[Luckers]

The idea was raised amongst the reds as well, though softly.

 

It likely won't work in any case, or at least not whilst the men are holding saidin. The process of holding saidin makes a man immune to compulsion; both the weave, and the compulsive aspect of the bond.