Can the Third Oath by Twisted by Threats?

[Walker012]

I'm sure people have thought about this before, but I just read a part of Gathering Storm where Tuon is musing on whether an Aes Sedai could be forced to use the One Power as a weapon.

 

The third oath is: "Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends or Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme defense of her life, the life of her Warder, or another Aes Sedai"

 

Obviously they can be forced-- one way is by forcing them, their warder, or another Aes Sedai forward into danger from an enemy and then coercing them like any other enslaved channeler.

 

But is there an easier way?

 

Is a knife to the throat and a threat to kill them if they don't attack with the one power "the last extreme defense of her life?" Obviously the slavers would be reluctant to do this because they don't want to kill their slaves, but would it be effective?

 

At one point in the early books (unless this is a show-only scene and I got confused) Egwene is unable to pick up a pitcher because she thought of it as a weapon. Could a similar trick be used, such that an Aes Sedai who has been enslaved is tortured or brainwashed until she believes anyone who doesn't serve the Seanchan Empire is a darkfriend, thereby enabling her to use the power as a weapon almost indiscriminately?

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Interesting question. 

 

My take would no, and yes. While of course the Oaths are open to interpretation and are flawed (in the sense that "speak no word that is not true" can only mean what the individual thinks is true), I cannot see how any Aes Sedai would not understand the Third Oath to mean to defend herself, not to save herself. She could of course channel if she was in extreme peril, but that would be a bit counter-productive as a damane. So I would say that no, she could not rationalize that she was saving her life. At least not without a caveat. 

 

Also, a pedantic point, the Third Oath makes no mention of Darkfriends. Which is a confusing point as we are told repeatedly that it does through the story, but the only time we directly see the Oaths (to the best of my knowledge) rather than a summary of what they are or a paraphrasing is in New Spring when Moraine and Suian are raised and they do not mention Darkfriends. Which has always been a very confusing point for me, as for example, Sheriam does specifically tell Egwene (I think) in The Great Hunt that Darkfriends are included in the Oath. This seems to point to the fact that to an Aes Sedai, this is assumed in the name Shadowspawn, which hardly seems satisfactory. But I digress.

 

The caveat is that what would happen to an Aes Sedai that was insane? Who was suffering from psychosis? That was so traumatically damaged by the sul'dam that she no longer knew what was real? Who had been convinced that only the word of the sul'dam was true? I suppose we can only speculate, but in that case, just like the Matrix defense used in the New York sniper case (if I recall correctly) individuals can reject reality and believe a persuasive individual as due to mental disorders everything feels unreal and false, so when someone tells them it is the only Matrix and they alone know the truth, that rings true to their experience as they are the only ones that confirm the sick person's daily reality.

 

It would seem a wasteful and dangerous experiment to conduct on a damane, but I guess the Seanchan probably wouldn't be too bothered about that. 

[Sabio]

There is also a difference between the 3rd oath and the collar.  We have seen how the Aes Sedai defines things.  It varied when an Aes Sedai felt threatened.  Holding a knife to her throat would make her feel in danger but could she blast away at innocent people becuase of it or is she forced to try and kill the person who is actually putting her life in danger?  I think a lot comes down to how an Aes Sedai views and interprets things.  

 

Egwene couldn't pick up the pitcher because it was viewed as a weapon to be used against the Suldam,  I would think any insane channeler would be quickly killed by the Seanchan.  They don't needlessly toss away Damane. So, I don't think they are common enough to waste a 100 on experiments.  If I remember correctly they were in shock how many women there were that could channel in Randland.  Someone once speculated the Seanchan chaining women at such early ages if it was actually breeding out the ability to channel in Seanchan.

[Mailman]

On 8/2/2025 at 6:09 AM, Sabio said:

There is also a difference between the 3rd oath and the collar.  We have seen how the Aes Sedai defines things.  It varied when an Aes Sedai felt threatened.  Holding a knife to her throat would make her feel in danger but could she blast away at innocent people becuase of it or is she forced to try and kill the person who is actually putting her life in danger?  I think a lot comes down to how an Aes Sedai views and interprets things.  

 

Egwene couldn't pick up the pitcher because it was viewed as a weapon to be used against the Suldam,  I would think any insane channeler would be quickly killed by the Seanchan.  They don't needlessly toss away Damane. So, I don't think they are common enough to waste a 100 on experiments.  If I remember correctly they were in shock how many women there were that could channel in Randland.  Someone once speculated the Seanchan chaining women at such early ages if it was actually breeding out the ability to channel in Seanchan.

I think the thought that they were breeding out the ability is in relation to channelers not having children which would be a problem in both lands. Although possibly less in Seachan as I imagine Sul'Damane would have relationships.

 

The reason why they found so many in Randland was that there was no continent-wide testing like in Seachan so many channelers were just living in the population meaning they found channelers from 13to14 up rather than just at the defined testing age.

Edited August 3 by Mailman

[Mailman]

Double.

Edited August 3 by Mailman

[Samt]

The three oaths are generally grounded by the oathgiver’s grasp on reality.  It is at least implied that the oaths can effectively be broken by someone able to manipulate her own view of reality to the point that she doesn’t believe she is violating the oaths.  
 

Verin is able to somewhat defeat the BA oaths by literally interpreting “hour of her death” when it might have been intended figuratively.  Of course, the BA oaths is worded somewhat unnecessarily poetically.  Or maybe it was a backdoor that some early reluctant BA member built in.

 

That said, RJ treads very lightly in this area and I think that is for the best as a story needs to feel like it has rules and that breaking rules at least has serious consequences.

[Sabio]

On 8/3/2025 at 3:48 AM, Mailman said:

I think the thought that they were breeding out the ability is in relation to channelers not having children which would be a problem in both lands. Although possibly less in Seachan as I imagine Sul'Damane would have relationships.

 

The reason why they found so many in Randland was that there was no continent-wide testing like in Seachan so many channelers were just living in the population meaning they found channelers from 13to14 up rather than just at the defined testing age.

Seanchan capture any woman who will channel, the women controlling them are ones who could channel if ever taught.  If they are never taught and the women who can channel die out, then you will only have women who might channel if taught but they would never know it.  Randland would have wise ones, kin, wind finders etc women who can channel and still have relationships.  If the Seanchan ever took Randland then these women would also be forced to stop having children. The ability to channel would never die it would just become women who are clueless they could channel.

 

The interesting thing is Shara uses their male channelers as breeding stock, and channelers were only allow to sexual relationships with other channelers.

Edited August 8 by Sabio

[Mailman]

6 hours ago, Sabio said:

Seanchan capture any woman who will channel, the women controlling them are ones who could channel if ever taught.  If they are never taught and the women who can channel die out, then you will only have women who might channel if taught but they would never know it.  Randland would have wise ones, kin, wind finders etc women who can channel and still have relationships.  If the Seanchan ever took Randland then these women would also be forced to stop having children. The ability to channel would never die it would just become women who are clueless they could channel.

 

The interesting thing is Shara uses their male channelers as breeding stock, and channelers were only allow to sexual relationships with other channelers.

I am aware that the whole thing is conjecture, but I am not sure that the 2 different ways the power emerges are ever linked directly to bloodlines in that way.

 

 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Or it could be something inbetween that the wilders are a different lineage and that it is random. 

 

In the Two Rivers, "the old blood ran strong" and there were many wilders (or women dying as they could not control the Power) and many that be taught. 

 

So wilders could just be end of the bell curve. So depending on if the sul'dam reproduce the situation maybe similarish. (you would assume they must, otherwise they would have bred the lineage out nearly immediately, only male non-wilders would pass their lineage on). The Seanchan collar all their wilders. No offspring. In the Westlands, most wilders die (75%) and a portion go to the White Tower (no offspring). Most channelers continue reproduce in both cases. 

 

So if there are more channelers in the Westlands, this may have more to do with the old blood running strong (a more pleasant way of saying inbred? Or just a different gene pool perhaps) than any systemic difference. 

[Sabio]

I also remember Verin talking about the whites were discussing if gentling the men was the reason the Aes Sedai were finding fewer and fewer women. Something about someone recommended if the Whites were so concerned maybe they should breed with the men.

 

It was mentioned how the Aiel find almost all the women who can channel, I'm guessing the Sea FOlk do also.  So there are still channeling women out there that are having babies.  The Aes sedai also don't allow those too weak or too old.

Edited August 11 by Sabio