Who is Mesaana?

[Luckers]

Forgive me, i wasn't very clear on what i was trying to say... i thought my position was inferred in my comment about Moridin, but looking back it was pretty obscure. My bad. Moridin asks for a watch to be kept, indicating he doesn't think they've arrived yet, yet showing they had left. He does not ask for word of knowledge of Shadowspawn to the south, or ask them to ask people of such a thing--he tells them to bring word when it happens. Future tense.

 

Whatever the cause of Machin Shin leaving them alone, the Shadowspawn entered the ways all at once. Machin Shins actions are strange, but that being said we have seen a sequence of evolution in Machin Shin since its encounter with Fain--it's not killing Fain, it's waiting at waygates, its attemps and near successes at leaving the ways... as sequence of sudden changes over a few months after hundreds of years of no change. Then its been nearly a year and a half since then with no knowledge of what Machin Shin's been up to.

 

So yes, Machin Shin's absense is strange, but its nevertheless what occured. And suggestively explainable.

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Given that Machin Shin is a by-product of the Taint.  And, given that Fain is now ( thanks to Ordieth ) a by-product of Shadar Logoth...

 

Much as I would have loved for MS to eat Fain and his lunch, it couldn't.  Just like the Taint and Shadar Logoth, the two opposite evils would have annihilated each other.  Eating him would have been like taking poison.

 

As to the point about the Trollocs not having attacked yet.  I agree.  My point is that they'd been dispatched longer than a day or so previously.  That many troops couldn't have negotiated that great a distance in a mere two plus days.

 

As we saw when Rand etal made their run through  the Ways, the Ways are badly deteriorated.  Portions are no longer there.  There's no way of knowing how many detours are involved in going from point A to point B.  Thus no way to accurately forecast how long any such journey would take.

 

Also as I said previously, I think they were sent before the Cleansing to take Rand while he was still in Far Madding and then short-stopped after he left, and held until Rand's new location was determined.

[metria31183]

Going back the Mesaana discussion, Mesaana knew that White Tower was going to be sending an emmisary to Rand and that they were going to bring him back to the Tower.  So who in the Tower knew that the emmisary was truly going to Cairhien to get Rand to come the Tower, by force or by invatation?  Was Alviarin working for Mesaana when those plans were made?

[havoc110]

That has yet to be determined.  When you see Alv. and Mesaana meeting in CoS prologue, Alv. hints that this is not the 1st meeting.

 

Indeed, she recognizes the siver/black form immediately as Mesaana.

 

She says that when she had omitted details previously, Mesaana always knew.

(How's that managed, mind you?)

 

So Alv. and Mesaana have met before. 

 

It would make sense seeing the evidence of Alviarin's and Elaida's activities in LoC 7, that those things point directly to Mesaana.

 

Using the choronology at Seven Spokes, LoC prologue and CoS prologue are both in Winter year 999/1000.

 

I think it can be safely assumed that Mesaana is running the BA at the beginning of LoC.  The "Lord of Chaos Plan" is about to begin, so it makes sense for all the players to be in position, rather than still have to further establish themselves.

 

 

[metria31183]

Was Danelle made a Sitter?  I don't think she was, but I'm not sure.  Right now my vote is for Danelle as Mesaana's alter ego, but has anyone thought that Mesaana could be posing as a personal servant to one of the Sitters in the Tower and controlling the Sitter?  RJ said Mesaana's alter ego had "screen time" at some point.  Do any of the Tower Sitters have personal servants that were mentioned in any scenes?  Apologies if this has been brought up before.

[havoc110]

EWoT does not mention Danelle as a Sitter.

 

Although I can't dismiss Danelle as a suspect, I can't believe it to be her because of her lack of "on screen time".  One appearance in a hallway since LoC?  Now granted the whole rest of the package fits, and I'll admit to similarities between the Danelle as Mesaana case and the Graendal as Asmo's killer case, but I still don't completely buy it.

 

For example, I think that Alviarin would have recognized Mesaana as "almost Danelle" when SH unmasks her.  True she's flustered and says she's "tantalizingly familiar", but she was the Keeper and they both have been around each other since Siuan was deposed.  As many people will use this (actually both above statements) as evidence for than evidence to the contrary, I realize that.

 

Funny you mention Sitters, though.  There is a Sitter connection in Sheriam's torture scene, where Sheriam mentions Sitters (PoD ch 16, also WoTFAQ 1.5.4).  To me, the torturer is definitely Mesaana.  Her statments to Sheriam in regards to Egwene are very similar to Mesaana talking to Aran'gar in KoD ch.3.

Of course we are talking about a different group of Sitters, but somewhere, somehow, a connection might be made.

 

That to me is the open link to Mesanna's identity.  Sheriam's captor.

[metria31183]

Why would Mesaana resort to just beating Sheriam and relying on Sheriam's fear of her captor when Mesaana could just Compel her?

 

And how well does Alviarin know Danelle?  If it's just in passing as in they pass one another in the hall and Alviarin thinks "Wasn't that Danelle?" Aliviarin might not have recognized her when her disguise was lifted by SH.  If she wasn't expecting to see Danelle or anyone that looked like Danelle, the face just might have seemed familiar. but not immediately recognizable.

 

IMO, Sheriam torturer is Romanda or Lelaine.  And I'm still in the Mesaana as Danelle camp unless someone can point out a Tower Sitter that has a servant.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Mesaana for Sheriam's tormentor has a couple of plusses.  But, the following may point the finger at Aran'gar, more clearly.

 

First, at a kaffe klatsch after SH has had his way with her, and after Egwene has been captured, when she hears that the Rebel AS are still besieging TV, she says:

  "They're determined to hold on?"  Mesaana murmered, half under her breath.  She nodded.  "Good.  Good.  Then everything is proceeding according to plan.  I had been thinking I would need to stage some sort of 'rescue,' but perhaps it can wait until Elaida has broken her.  Her return should create even more confusion, then.  You need to sow more dissension, Aran'gar.  Before I'm done, I want these so-called Aes Sedai hating each other in their blood."

 

Part of the reason she may have been so willing to dispose of Alviarin after Alv got deposed as Keeper, might be that she's got her hooks into the Rebel's Keeper, Sheriam.  From her vantage point, she obviously believes that she's so poisoned the atmosphere within the Tower that the only thing left is knives in the hallways.  She might even be right.

 

Then the logical next step for her is to do the very same thing to the Rebels.  She clearly doesn't know about Egwene's abilities in T'a'R, and is probably thinking that the Rebels will choose yet another competing Amyrlin.  Then, when Egwene is finally freed, whatever else she might have managed to do in the meantime, the Rebel Tower will be divided, as well.  Those for Egwene and those for her successor.  Three or more competing "Towers" would leave the AS totally ineffectual at TG.  Especially if one of those was headed by Elaida, another by a 'broken' Egwene, and the third by her hand picked puppet.

 

We probably won't know for sure until we can gauge Sheriam's mental state now that Halima has left.

 

metria -

 

So far as we can tell, Mesaana hasn't used Compulsion on anybody yet.  Propoganda, persuasion, intimidation, etc. seem to be more her style.  So far, whatever she's been doing has worked.  Don't fix it if it aint broke.

 

 

 

[metria31183]

Do we have a POV from Mesaana where she was actually doing something and not just meeting with the rest of the Forsaken?  But you may have a point about the Compulsion because Mesaana was not particularly known for it.

 

In considering more I think Sheriam's torturer is Romanda.  Eliada has said she had moles amoung the rebels, and ones that would severly dishearten the rebels if they were discovered.

 

Still leads me to think Mesaana is Danelle.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Dunno.  Isn't Romanda Yellow?

 

Unless she's kinked like Semirhage, torture isn't something a Yellow could stomach.

 

Lelaine, now...  she and Sheriam are both Blues... could have a history that makes Sheriam vulnerable...

[metria31183]

Yeah Romanda is a Yellow, but what if she didn't see it as torture, but as punishment?  As for it being Lelaine, if Sheriam's torturer/punisher is Elaida's mole, it certainly wouldn't be a Blue.  Elaida hates the Blue Ajah and wants to see the whole Ajah disbanded and it's members groveling at her feet.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yup.  If it's Lelaine, she isn't Elaida's mole.

 

Could she be more of Mesaana's doing?  Mesaana has no particular prejudice against any Ajah.  She'll throw any and all of the Ajahs under the bus if it suits her purpose.

 

Beonin may have been Elaida's chief ( and maybe only ) mole.  She certainly acts like it once she goes back to the Tower.  Her willingness to "help" Egwene seems to stem more from a sense of outraged pride at Elaida's treatment of her than any dedication to Egwene.

 

Of course, all of this still leaves Aran'gar/Halima.  Certainly the easiest place to point the finger.  Something Semirhage learned from Cabriana, another Blue, may have given him/her a wedge to get at Sheriam.

[metria31183]

Halimagar is too obvious.  Not RJ's style.  Recall the whole Taim=Demandred thing that turned out not to be.  There were obvious clues that Taim was Demandred then RJ came back and flat out said he wasn't.  I think the best bet for Sheriam's torturer is Romanda working as Elaida's mole. 

[havoc110]

Elaida's moles you say?  Severely dishearten you say?

 

Well, using the OP to bind, gag, and strip another sister leads me to believe that we're talking about an unrevealed BA, or a Forsaken.

 

So, could it be Lelaine or Romanda, and one of the is an unbeknownst to us BA?  Sure.  Could it be Halima/Aran'gar.  Also, yes.  But it also could be Mesaana.  It neatly fits with her working in the WT thru Alv.  Why not work in Salidar the same way?

 

What I don't think it could be is Lelaine or Romanda, and still be on the side of Light.  (Which may or may not been what metria said, it is not 100% clear).

 

And the only Mesaana POV is LoC prologue.

 

If it came to splitting hairs between Romanda and Lelaine.  MAYBE (with the slimmest of maybe's) it could be Lelaine (Light side, but just barely, the WoTFAQ calls this the OP loophole) who would REALLY, REALLY be taking liberties by forcing deference from Sheriam to do her bidding as a higher ranking Sister. It really looks like stepping outside the oaths to me (hell, whenever I think of stepping outside the oaths, I immediately think VERIN, but I digress). She's shown willingness the throw Egwene under the bus for her own personal advancement.  It loosely fits, but it's still a bit of a stretch.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Verin's not the only example of that.  Remember when Moiraine is explaining to Rand about balefire?  The whole "sometimes doing what is necessary means you must break the rules" thing?

 

Lelaine could easily justify everything on the basis that, first, Sheriam was supposed to keep Egwene in-line, meek, mild, and pliant, so that Lelaine was really running things, and Sheriam failed at that.  Secondly, as arrogant as all of the AS act, she could truly believe that she is the only fit Amyrlin in this crisis.  That SHE is the one destined to successfully reunite the Tower and lead it to victory at TG.

 

First she sees herself as justified in punishing Sheriam for her failure, and second she sees herself as justified in her ( barely ) incipient rebellion against Egwene.  All for true and pure reasons, by the Light.

[metria31183]

The same could be said for Romanda, she sees herself as punishing Sheriam for rebelling against Elaida.  So she could be binding, gagging, and stripping in the name of the Light.  Or either Lelaine or Romanda could be BA which puts us right back where we started trying to decide which one of them is doing it.  I do not think it is Mesaana however.  This just doesn't have a Mesaana vibe to it.  I think she would be subtler than that.

[Bob T Dwarf]

First for Mesaana.  During the whole ugly scene with Alviarin, before SH shows up, we see that Alviarin has been punished by Mesaana before.  More than once.  Her terror of the woman is entirely justified based solely on her own experience.  From everything else we know about Mesaana, including SH's line about her always being too willing to waste resources, we know that Mesaana is a blunt hammer, not a deft scalpel.

 

Romanda doesn't fit for BA.  She's the one who finally figures out that the "man" killing Salidar AS is really Halima.  She's the one who tries to get Halima and Delana captured before they can get away.  Lelaine ( and others ) are the ones who insist on every jot and tittle of procedure before they'll permit so much as a hand to be lifted against either.  Thus they both get away.

[havoc110]

Nothing wrong with a simple disagreement on that point.

 

I just revisited this scene a few days ago, and before then it had

never been notable.  But on my last read it screamed out Mesaana to me.

 

I'm getting slightly more comfortable with Lelaine, though.  I was reminded of her "pressing" of Faolain in KoD ch1.  "Not the way to treat another sister, but then she's really just an Accepted until she can be tested and passes."  She shows no regard for Egwene's declaration of Faolain as full AS.

 

So Lelaine has delusions of grandeur.  She's also the most likely to have betrayed Egwene at Northharbor as well.  Since it isn't Mesaana, isn't Halima, and isn't Beonin.

[metria31183]

Good point Bob.  I'm only to PoD in my re-read and it's been at least a year and half since I read any of the others books.  My memory about details like that is spotty at best.

 

So we have another argument for Mesaana as torturer.  But Romanda could still being doing it even if she isn't BA and Lelaine could still be doing it because she is BA.  Square one again damn it.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Aint tryna figger out who's who fun? :P

[Cybertrolloc]

We have a Romanda point of view. Nothing obviously shadow, but not much to say she's definitely not...seems very self-centered and stereotypical old-ladyish.

 

I thought KoD chapter 1 wrapped up the Sheriam's torturer as well as it's going to be. Sheriam cowers around Lelaine, and Lelaine had wanted to question a lot of people/everybody among the Salidar crowd to root out darkfriends.

 

Lastly Danelle was the sister who was in charge of the library reconstruction. Suian notes that she's over budget right before Elaida's coup, and later at one of Elaida's meetings we find out that was part of the takeover.

 

Even if you don't look everything up in the books before posting, most of the above is easily findable on the WoT encylopaedia site http://encyclopaedia-wot.org:8008/index.html

 

Luckers, yeah I forgot to mention the Taim is crazy (whether like a fox or not...) negative again ;) I still find Taim competent enough to not expect a non-channeling force to actually accomplish much, guess I'll need to see that confirmed by Sanderson before buying it ;)

[havoc110]

Regarding Lelaine, Siuan sure can pick 'em, huh?

 

Maybe she's still carrying a grudge about not being Keeper for Siuan?

Then she's forced to deal with an Amyrlin who she thinks isn't even a full Sister, and watch as Sheriam gets the Keeper's stole.

 

 

[havoc110]

Hmmm... Danelle.

 

It's what's not there that seems to be the clue, not what is there.

 

No age.

No last name.

No reference as a novice.

No date of attaining shawl.

No warder.

No mention of former friends, or peers as Novices or Accepted.

 

Many more insignificant characters have some, most, or all

of these references, but not Danelle.  No personal history elements AT ALL.

 

Also, there is a mystery woman watching Nynaeve at the end of LoC ch12.

Anyone know who this is?  Halima doesn't appear until LoC 30.  Reading

it again and it struck me as similar to Demandred at the end of LoC ch7.

 

 

 

 

[Luckers]

Although I can't dismiss Danelle as a suspect, I can't believe it to be her because of her lack of "on screen time".  One appearance in a hallway since LoC?  Now granted the whole rest of the package fits, and I'll admit to similarities between the Danelle as Mesaana case and the Graendal as Asmo's killer case, but I still don't completely buy it.

 

Except, as i pointed out, her lack of onscreen time directly fits her MO. She served a key point, then faded into the background, exactly as Mesaana would have. Furthermore whilst she has not been seen since LoC, she's been mentioned in every book since then by character POV's... RJ's kept her alive, for all that she hasn't been seen.

 

For example, I think that Alviarin would have recognized Mesaana as "almost Danelle" when SH unmasks her.  True she's flustered and says she's "tantalizingly familiar", but she was the Keeper and they both have been around each other since Siuan was deposed.  As many people will use this (actually both above statements) as evidence for than evidence to the contrary, I realize that.

 

Like Egwene should have recognized Siuan, when she saw her? Or for that matter Sheriam, Morvrin, Beonin, Anaiya, Carlinya or Myrelle should have recognized her when they met her? Sheriam and Myrelle have known her since they were girls, Sheriam was so close that she was named Mistress of Novices--they all saw something familiar, something they felt they should recognize. Add to that that Aside from merely losing the Agelessness Mesaana was only similar looking to Danelle--she was not Danelle without Agelessness--and you have more than an explanation.

 

 

[havoc110]

Funny you should mention that:

 

I was just reading and asking myself: "Why doesn't Egwene recognize

Siuan and Leane?"