The Great Hunt, Did Lanfear use compulsion?

[MostOfTsushima]

Re- reading The Great Hunt (doesn't matter how many times).  

It's very clear after re-reading the series, that Lanfear (as Selene) used Compulsion on Rand.  Or at least tried to.

The sexy scene where she convinced Rand to inspect the fire that was Fain and his darkfriends/trollocs with Loial. 

Rand internally describes the chill down his spine which he attributed to Selenes laugh, and throughout that scene credits Selene's looks and legs in the moonlight as what makes his mind so cloudy and heavily influenced. 

We later learn that this "chill" around women who can channel is not mere coincidence. 

Rand's behavior while in the void (when he re-captures the Horn of Valere and Matt's dagger) and the way that Saidin seems to call to him more than ever makes me think that part of the sensation was the Compulsion of Lanfear, who probably wanted Rand to go down there and incinerate everyone with the Power.  

So Rand, who internally battled the call of Saidin while he flawlessly slaughtered trollocs in the darkness, was really battling the Compulsion of Lanfear (Selene) to destroy everyone with the Power. 

 

Edited February 14 by MostOfTsushima
typo

[Bugglesley]

I feel like my niche on here is poo pooing theories. That said, poo poo!

 

A few considerations:

- I find it unlikely that Lanfear ever use Compulsion on LTT. She is among the most insanely prideful people alive and is utterly convinced she can manipulate, seduce, and rule alongside LTT ("Rand" is just a husk that he will have to overcome). I don't think it fits into her character to "cheat" by using compulsion, when she's doing so well playing the helpless but also all-knowing damsel. 

- Saidar channelling is almost always described as goosebumps or a prickling sensation, not a "chill down the spine." I know they're not that dissimilar but RJ is famously almost slavishly consistent in his descriptions of things.

- Compulsion (I'm going to stick to the RJ works for this, BS made a bunch of rules about it to make it one of his magic system logic games that he loves but idk how much of that is in the original) seems to be fairly binary. It works or it doesn't. Some have conditions--Liandrin's requires the person to like her, Verin's requires a logical reason that the person wants to do it, Grandael's is so overpowering it just obliterates the person altogether--but in all these cases, once the condition is fulfilled the person will do what they're told. It's not a matter of there being a suggestion in their head, it's a, well, compulsion. The victim's brains rationalize why they're doing it but they do.

 

To me, I think the simple explanation is the right one. An all-time legendary beauty (not as hot as Ileana tho don't @ me lanfear) is doing her best to seduce a simple farm boy and succeeding, and he's coming to grips with the process of mastering the overwhelming power of Saidin. I think those two are the simpler and more effective explanations for everything that happens in that chapter.

 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

22 minutes ago, Bugglesley said:

It works or it doesn't.

Except in Morgase's case, it works or it doesn't and when it works, it works, except when it doesn't. Which is necessary for the plot, and makes Compulsion a little bit less like a "I win" button, but still slightly unsatisfying. 

 

Though aside from that quibble, I definitely agree that while there is nothing that proves there was no Compulsion, and it does fit to an extent, it does not seem consistent with Lanfear's personality. She goes to great lengths to try to bring Rand to her voluntarily. Now it could be argued this would just be tiniest of tiniest nudges, but it still to me feels like a step over a line, that if Lanfear was going to cross, she would do so a lot more emphatically.

[Bugglesley]

5 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Except in Morgase's case, it works or it doesn't and when it works, it works, except when it doesn't. Which is necessary for the plot, and makes Compulsion a little bit less like a "I win" button, but still slightly unsatisfying. 

 

Though aside from that quibble, I definitely agree that while there is nothing that proves there was no Compulsion, and it does fit to an extent, it does not seem consistent with Lanfear's personality. She goes to great lengths to try to bring Rand to her voluntarily. Now it could be argued this would just be tiniest of tiniest nudges, but it still to me feels like a step over a line, that if Lanfear was going to cross, she would do so a lot more emphatically.

 

To start, my basic understanding is that Rahvin was using powerful but specific and temporary Compulsions on Morgase to some extent; he didn't obliterate her self-concept the way that Grandael does, and in FoH when she comes in hot about the Two Rivers business, it seems like he has to put on a new net just to say basically "go back to your room and leave us be." [Edited to add: I forgot it but looked up an exact quote from his PoV:  "A scowl twisted his face. It did with some. A few-a very few-had a strength of self so firm that their minds searched, even if unaware for crevices through which to slide away. It was his bad luck that he still had some small need for one such. She could be handled, but she kept trying to find escape without knowing she was trapped." So basically, if he didn't want to fry her mind, he was left having to use temporary solutions.] So it's not a permanent thing that somehow got switched off, it's more like a subscription that doesn't auto-renew that he changes up every time.  With that, three theories:

 

- He let her go on purpose as part of a gambit; this seems less likely to me. Why not just kill her? A possibility is that the plan was for her to go to a former ally that he's poisoned against her (or that he forced her to poison against herself), and they off her publicly, which gives him a chance to strengthen his position further and puts any blame for her death squarely off of his shoulders. If that's the case.. why not just Compel her to do that instead of letting her completely loose? I think it's less likely.

 

- He got sloppy and overconfident (which is, to some extent, what gets him killed like 10 chapters later anyway (though how are you going to plan for Nyneave with one of your co-workers on a leash? Idk but still)). He was busy and distracted setting things up for Rand, so he thinks he's in the endgame and/or he's too busy with his other 6 trollops. He forgets to top up the Compulsion, she manages to have a moment of clarity. It really doesn't matter, though, because oh whoops, he's burned every single bridge she could cross and centralized all power to him. Literally who cares if she goes, he's king now and there's nothing she can do... which leads us to

 

- He let her go on purpose because he didn't need her any more, and letting her come back up to her senses to see how hopeless her situation is is the greatest way to dunk on her. This is the one I think is closest. He is, like many of the Forsaken, an insane, narcissistic sociopath. He is, though, the one that's real good at politics. So of course he completely plays one of the most powerful women on the planet for a fool, toys with her, and when he's done Compelling her into systemically and utterly shredding any shred of power, legitimacy or legacy she might ever possess and establishing him as unquestioned King with her own mouth and body, he leaves her to do whatever the hell she wants. He has conquered her in the most complete, disgusting, and total way, rendering her utterly powerless. In the final move of many such men, he has shown the greatest disrespect of all and completely forgotten about her. To kill her would be to imply that she was still worth killing. To keep using her would be to imply that she is still worth using. To him, she is now useless, and it is the greatest and most satisfying cruelty to just cut her loose.

Edited February 15 by Bugglesley

[MostOfTsushima]

Bugglesley,  Wow... I love it. 

A response like that is exactly why I made the  post.   Thank you for the thorough reply, honestly.

I'm really quite swayed.  I know I said "It's very clear" that Compulsion was used on Rand here but i've got my doubts now.  

I disagree with the idea that Lanfear is too proud to use the Power as one of her many tools to manipulate LTT, but that might be the only thing I disagree with. 

The rest of what you said was pure fact, most relevant being RJ's consistent description of the goosebumps around the channeling of saidar.  

If I may adjust my theory a bit. 

I think it's possible that, as Selene, she attempted to influnence Rand with the Power, even if it wasn't all out Compulsion, and failed because he was stronger than she anticipated. 

Selene has various reactions during those chapters where she seems continually surprised and frustrated by what she calls Rand's "stubborness" and is at times shocked that he doesn't just fall in line with her suggestions. I think she tries certain "tricks" that she thinks will work, and is surprised when they don't.

That being said, I think you're right and Rand consciously went to retrieve the Horn and dagger for Matt- and as an added bonus it wouldn't hurt to impress the beautiful damsel in the process. 

With saidin beckoning within the void, Rand trying to ignore his fear and Loial's, the tension of the sleeping trollocs/darkriends, it's an intense scene.  It's also a very dreamy and disassociated.

I feel like there's a missing element which might make sense of Rand's odd perspective other than the facts that RJ makes obvious to the reader.  
I recently listened to that chapter for the first time audiobook style, which might've sparked the new thoughts.

 

 

[Elgee]

@Bugglesley I'm just going to follow you around and read what you say. That was an amazingly well thought out and written piece. Much respect and appreciation!

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

16 hours ago, Bugglesley said:

 

To start, my basic understanding is that Rahvin was using powerful but specific and temporary Compulsions on Morgase to some extent; he didn't obliterate her self-concept the way that Grandael does, and in FoH when she comes in hot about the Two Rivers business, it seems like he has to put on a new net just to say basically "go back to your room and leave us be." [Edited to add: I forgot it but looked up an exact quote from his PoV:  "A scowl twisted his face. It did with some. A few-a very few-had a strength of self so firm that their minds searched, even if unaware for crevices through which to slide away. It was his bad luck that he still had some small need for one such. She could be handled, but she kept trying to find escape without knowing she was trapped." So basically, if he didn't want to fry her mind, he was left having to use temporary solutions.] So it's not a permanent thing that somehow got switched off, it's more like a subscription that doesn't auto-renew that he changes up every time.  With that, three theories:

 

- He let her go on purpose as part of a gambit; this seems less likely to me. Why not just kill her? A possibility is that the plan was for her to go to a former ally that he's poisoned against her (or that he forced her to poison against herself), and they off her publicly, which gives him a chance to strengthen his position further and puts any blame for her death squarely off of his shoulders. If that's the case.. why not just Compel her to do that instead of letting her completely loose? I think it's less likely.

 

- He got sloppy and overconfident (which is, to some extent, what gets him killed like 10 chapters later anyway (though how are you going to plan for Nyneave with one of your co-workers on a leash? Idk but still)). He was busy and distracted setting things up for Rand, so he thinks he's in the endgame and/or he's too busy with his other 6 trollops. He forgets to top up the Compulsion, she manages to have a moment of clarity. It really doesn't matter, though, because oh whoops, he's burned every single bridge she could cross and centralized all power to him. Literally who cares if she goes, he's king now and there's nothing she can do... which leads us to

 

- He let her go on purpose because he didn't need her any more, and letting her come back up to her senses to see how hopeless her situation is is the greatest way to dunk on her. This is the one I think is closest. He is, like many of the Forsaken, an insane, narcissistic sociopath. He is, though, the one that's real good at politics. So of course he completely plays one of the most powerful women on the planet for a fool, toys with her, and when he's done Compelling her into systemically and utterly shredding any shred of power, legitimacy or legacy she might ever possess and establishing him as unquestioned King with her own mouth and body, he leaves her to do whatever the hell she wants. He has conquered her in the most complete, disgusting, and total way, rendering her utterly powerless. In the final move of many such men, he has shown the greatest disrespect of all and completely forgotten about her. To kill her would be to imply that she was still worth killing. To keep using her would be to imply that she is still worth using. To him, she is now useless, and it is the greatest and most satisfying cruelty to just cut her loose.

Very insightful, though I would generally favour following the book's given motivation until there is a compelling reason (sorry) not to. Definitely, he was lax, a toady on her door would have been sufficient to stop her escape, obviously she was not a high priority. But iirc we see Rahvins's point of view where he expressly refers to Morgase as someone he still had use for. He was aware that she was struggling but took insufficient measures. There is no reason I can see to contradict his inner thoughts, unreliable narrator cannot be said to be at play here. 

 

Also not wanting to let RL intrude, but narcissists never let you go. Never. 100% they would destroy you rather than letting you go your own way. Rahvin might let her feel how useless she was but then he would reel her back in and feed on her hopelessness. If he was a narcissist anyway. Someone suffering out of sight gives them no supply, and risks them not being the centre of attention. 

[Elgee]

10 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Also not wanting to let RL intrude, but narcissists never let you go. Never. 100% they would destroy you rather than letting you go your own way. Rahvin might let her feel how useless she was but then he would reel her back in and feed on her hopelessness. If he was a narcissist anyway. Someone suffering out of sight gives them no supply, and risks them not being the centre of attention. 

 

Very true.

 

Also, he would most likely never believe that someone COULD escape him, therefore not take enough precautions.

[Bugglesley]

On 2/15/2024 at 12:25 PM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Very insightful, though I would generally favour following the book's given motivation until there is a compelling reason (sorry) not to. Definitely, he was lax, a toady on her door would have been sufficient to stop her escape, obviously she was not a high priority. But iirc we see Rahvins's point of view where he expressly refers to Morgase as someone he still had use for. He was aware that she was struggling but took insufficient measures. There is no reason I can see to contradict his inner thoughts, unreliable narrator cannot be said to be at play here. 

 

Also not wanting to let RL intrude, but narcissists never let you go. Never. 100% they would destroy you rather than letting you go your own way. Rahvin might let her feel how useless she was but then he would reel her back in and feed on her hopelessness. If he was a narcissist anyway. Someone suffering out of sight gives them no supply, and risks them not being the centre of attention. 

On the one hand, that PoV is from earlier than when she's cut loose, and he declares himself King right when she leaves; I don't think it's out of the question that we're both right here. He still had use for her until he didn't.

 

As to the second, I too don't want to get too much into RL stuff so I'll agree but add--how satisfying would it be for her to come crawling back, having been turned away by every single place she thought she would find allies or succor? How rich would it be to tell her lmao, there's no place for you here, beg? How hilarious (to him) would it be if she wound up at his beck and call without even needing the Compulsion because she'd been played so badly? It's hard to say what the long term plan there was because he got turned to brightly floating motes soon thereafter.

[Sabio]

The tingle could also have been her channeling to keep her disguise up etc.  She seems reluctant to use compulsion on Rand, with her whole she wants him to come to her freely.