Moghedien and TAR

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

Something occurred to me in my reread. I’m not as familiar as the OG fans with the intricacies of everything that has happened and has already been discussed and explained, so please forgive my ignorance. Anyway, I don’t understand how nyneave was able to get the best of moggie in FOH by using the a’dam and forkroot in TAR. We have already been privy to her apparent knowledge, skill, experience and ease in the dream world, especially but not exclusively by her handling of birgitte. I would think she would have known that she could have undone the situation nyneave put her in simply by employing her knowledge of how the world of dreams works. Anyone who can help clarify this for me?

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

I was never sure if this was a change in how TAR worked, or if this was something specific to Moghedien. I think it is later explained that Moggie panics and accepts the a'dam as real instead of fighting it. It could be also seen as her willingness to surrender as while she is matching wills with Nynaeve over the a'dam's existance, Nynaeve is free to channel and control her own weaves and exert influence through the a'dam. And therefore rather than risk death or torture, she gives up to save herself. 

 

Personally though I feel it was a change in how RJ felt the TAR worked, as Moggie was meant to be the real expert in the dream world, not Lanfear, though imho the books are a bit full of people claiming to be the experts in TAR, Ishy, Lanfear, Moggie, the Aiel, Perrin, Isam, etc.

 

Not sure what the accepted theory is, though this is all out of the top of my head.

[EirikDaude]

10 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Something occurred to me in my reread. I’m not as familiar as the OG fans with the intricacies of everything that has happened and has already been discussed and explained, so please forgive my ignorance. Anyway, I don’t understand how nyneave was able to get the best of moggie in FOH by using the a’dam and forkroot in TAR. We have already been privy to her apparent knowledge, skill, experience and ease in the dream world, especially but not exclusively by her handling of birgitte. I would think she would have known that she could have undone the situation nyneave put her in simply by employing her knowledge of how the world of dreams works. Anyone who can help clarify this for me?

I listened to this as an audiobook, and I can swear there was a bit during the capture of Moghedien, where she begins changing the WoD, but Nyneave senses it through the a'dam and stops her somehow. I'd check my books to confirm, but too lazy rn.

[wotfan4472]

23 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Something occurred to me in my reread. I’m not as familiar as the OG fans with the intricacies of everything that has happened and has already been discussed and explained, so please forgive my ignorance. Anyway, I don’t understand how nyneave was able to get the best of moggie in FOH by using the a’dam and forkroot in TAR. We have already been privy to her apparent knowledge, skill, experience and ease in the dream world, especially but not exclusively by her handling of birgitte. I would think she would have known that she could have undone the situation nyneave put her in simply by employing her knowledge of how the world of dreams works. Anyone who can help clarify this for me?

It is information that Egwene gave Nynaeve from her training with the four Wise Ones.

 

Training that collectively would mean that Moghedien's skills get a stronger contender, since much of their training was in defeating the things Moghedien does. It is just that with her knowledge of both the adam and forkroot on top of that training, Nynaeve would be able to stop her.

[Bugglesley]

I don't disagree with anything anyone's brought up, to me it always read the most as our first big example of two things:

 

1) The Forsaken are incredibly powerful but also incredibly arrogant, and Moghedien is not actually that much better at manipulating TAR than the "filthy savage primitive wilders" among the Aiel that have transitively trained Nyneave, who knows just enough to be dangerous and just enough to stop Moghedien from rewriting TAR reality with the a'dam. Part 2 of "the Forsaken don't know everything" is that a'dams are "new"--they were invented post-breaking by an Aes Sedai already in Seanchan, based on some combination of circles and also warder bonds that (by the way) are also post-breaking. She has no reference for what exactly the a'dam is doing. Had her wits truly about her she maybe still could have simply willed the a'dam off her neck and out of existence? That said, about having her wits about her...

 

2) The Forsaken are incredibly powerful but still just people, and pretty crappy people at that. They have disordered personalities--that's why they signed up with the Ancient Evil in the first place! Moghedien is an inveterate coward. A vicious, clever, malignant coward, but above all she's driven by fear. From her PoV chapters and her clash with Nyneave in Tanchico it's clear she's competent at pulling strings, but she's real bad in a pinch. She does not deal well with a well-executed plan going off the rails.

 

We see from the black ajah girl's club chapters that she's so mad that Nyneave embarrassed her at the Panarch's palace that she's getting sloppy. She's ignoring what she should be doing to chase around this wilder (and her hero of the horn pal) for revenge. It can only be described as tilting. So when her hastily but well-laid plan to torture said wilder for all infinity suddenly goes off the rails, she doesn't have her wits about her. It's happening again! Last time she was just out-Powered but this time she's been outsmarted, and that's just not processing in time. She tilts right off the face of the earth.

 

That's one of my favorite things about RJ, you can say it's one of his core themes coming out of his Vietnam experiences--the "stronger" person doesn't always win. Sometimes there's something they just didn't or couldn't consider. Sometimes they choke. As they say in sports, "that's why they play the games."

Edited December 4, 2023 by Bugglesley