New theory for the Horn and how Mat will get his battle skill, new memories, and war strategy abilities

[Robbin Poh]

My theory for the Horn, which also explains how show Mat will get his battle memory, strategic ability and fighting skills. It will be by blowing the Horn.

(Edit 29 Sept 2023: I recalled this prophecy "Let whosoever sounds me think not of glory, but only of salvation". It all fits perfectly！ 
https://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/03/horn-of-valere.html?m=1
"Q: "Hawkwing says they follow the banner and the Dragon. Moiraine says the Heroes will follow whoever winds the horn. Was Moiraine wrong?"

A: *Arch look* "Moiraine doesn't know everything. She was speaking the truth as she knows it." (I took this to imply that Moir was misinformed, and the conflict resolved, until he continued.) "However, she is correct in that whoever sounds the horn 'controls the Heroes.'" [exact quote] (I started to get confused at this point. Is Moir right or is she wrong? What's he trying to tell me?)

Q: "Then what happens if the Dragon and the banner are on opposite sides of the conflict from whoever sounds the horn?"

A: "Then we get a [rift] in the Pattern."")
 

Assumption 1

People are born neutral, in between Light and Shadow. They may go thru life without ever consciously choosing a side. In AMOL, Rand chooses to repair the prison instead of killing the DO because he understood that people needed to retain both negative and positive emotions to have whole personalities.

Assumption 2
The Dagger, Shadar Logoth and Mashadar are an offshoot from the DO's power. The prerequisite for their existence was that people had to be capable of negative thoughts and negative actions, even if it was done in the name of good. Since the DO must exist for this to be possible, it makes more sense if the evil of Shadar Logoth is an offshoot of the Shadow's.

 

That's why Fain got a power boost enough to kill a Fade when he had the dagger, yet Ishy didn't mention anything about the dagger or how Fain could be powerful enough to torture and kill Fades. ie it was a natural equipment upgrade. In the books, it was mentioned that even the Forsaken were uncomfortable with Fain's power. 

 

Considering how Aridhol transformed into Shadar Logoth, the dagger ability similarly weakens a person's mental resilience and gradually tilt his psychological alliance over to the Shadow. Mat resisted it once, and was healed of his influence, but the damage was done, his mental resilience against it remains very very weak, he still wants it like Gollum wants the Ring. If he chose to give in to the temptation and touch it again, he will turn irrevocably over to the Shadow.

That would match up with Ishy's confidence in turning Mat and his mission for Min to bring him to Falme, ie make Mat touch it again
_____________________
Extrapolation
If you think about it, the Heroes of the Horn are Heroes for their heroic actions by simple humans. Whereas Aridhol turned into Shadar Logoth due to the evil actions of simple humans. So the Horn can be considered the anti-thesis of the Dagger, and therefore the Horn and the Heroes are a subset/offshoot of the Light.
_____________________
Theory
The Shadow works by tempting even the unwilling into damnation, therefore it makes sense for the dagger to corrupt minds to turn them evil. But the Light can't work like that too, else it'll be just as bad. 

 

So instead, the Horn's cause and effect relation with people is reversed. Only people who have made a conscious and determined decision to walk/stay in the Light can effectively blow the Horn. It's got to be a life-changing level of resolve.

 

Darkfriends are unable to touch the Horn at all, maybe it generates a psychological barrier as strong as a physical/magical barrier. This would explain why the Horn needed to be in a special box, else they wouldn't be able to carry it to Falme. This would also explain why no Darkfriend blew it to cement the Horn's affiliation to the Dark side even though they have had it for so long. (Drawback is the Horn would also become a effective darkfriend detector, so this theory might need further tweaking)

 

As for people who have never consciously chosen Light or Shadow since birth, they might be able to touch the Horn, but blowing it does nothing. This would explain why Ishy did not just get a non-DF peasant who is not DF to blow the horn then control him using compulsion to make the Heroes fight for the Shadow.
_____________________
Consequence of Theory
Ishy needs someone like Turak or possibly a zealot like Masema or a dedicated Whitecloak to blow the horn, as (1) they have a strong resolve to walk in the Light but also (2) a fvcked up mentality about what's right and wrong. The first criteria allows people like Turak to blow the horn effectively. The second criteria allows Ishy to manipulate people like that to command the Heroes to fight for the Shadow.

 

So maybe after Min brings Mat to Falme, Ishy places him with the dagger, but Mat resists the dagger's temptation and eventually picked up the Horn instead. As for Min's vision of Mat stabbing Rand, that might be Mat's ruse to trick Ishy.

 

And when he blew the Horn of Valere, it was an indicator he has cemented his resolve to walk in the Light for evermore.

 

The perks of being Hornblower is that the experience of all Heroes of the Horn is filtered into something that best suits his natural aptitudes and personality.

He gets his luck by being a Taveren that is triggered as soon as he blows the Horn.

_____________________
PS: Of course this also means probably no more Finnland in the show

Edited September 30, 2023 by Robbin Poh

[Scarloc99]

Some issues I see with your theory. 

In the book it explicitly states that the horn could never work for the shadow at the end. We also know that the evil of Shadar Logoth is a very different almost opposite evil to the dark lord. 

Mat also ceases to be the holder of the horn halfway through the story. 

All those events I think are happening as per the books, nothing we have seen has suggested otherwise.

[Mirefox]

In the book, Mat actually had a strong foundation for his fighting skills thanks to his noble father, who taught him how to fight with a bo staff.  Because we can’t have noble male characters, Abel was a drunk philanderer, Mat is a thief and a coward, and if he suddenly starts fighting competently they better have a good explanation other than some mystical Matrix-style fight program installation.  At the same time, the show has also dropped Rand’s training and we are presumably going to see him fight a swordmaster soon, so things like logical character progression aren’t necessarily a concern of the show.

Edited September 19, 2023 by Mirefox

[SinisterDeath]

59 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

Because we can’t have noble male characters

By that logic, Explain Perrin freeing Aviendha?

 

Quote

And if he suddenly starts fighting competently they better have a good explanation other than some mystical Matrix-style fight program installation.

Did they explain Perrin's fighting ability? Or are we thinking everyone's just hand waving his fighting ability as he's big and stronk, with wolf-skills?

[Robbin Poh]

20 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

Some issues I see with your theory. 

In the book it explicitly states that the horn could never work for the shadow at the end. We also know that the evil of Shadar Logoth is a very different almost opposite evil to the dark lord. 

Mat also ceases to be the holder of the horn halfway through the story. 

All those events I think are happening as per the books, nothing we have seen has suggested otherwise.

In the show, why not hide the real horn in Thakandar, then counterfeit a Horn to give Turak, that would eliminate the risk of Mat or anyone not DF recovering the Horn and blowing it. In the books, it was a clear loophole, even if Ishy was still too mad then, Lanfear and probably a few others were already free by the time the Shienaran party were chasing after Fain's group, so they could have taken the horn from Fain easily for safekeeping. Even Slayer could have done it too. Instead everyone on the Shadow side just stood by why a wildcard like Fain did whatever he liked with an artifact of strategic importance in the battle of Falme and the Final battle.

Anyway, if we stay with book canon and keep SL's evil as independent and almost opposite to the DO and Shadow's evil, then let's ask the question, shouldn't it be also possible for there to be a  force for good that is independent and almost opposite to the Creator and Light. In which case, then that force is the Hero reincarnation system and the Horn. But I still think my theory will fit better with the rest of WOT book lore. More importantly, it provides a reasonable method for Mat to gain all his new powers in one shot, much more reasonable than suddenly being an expert staff fighter all along.
 

[Robbin Poh]

1 hour ago, Mirefox said:

In the boom, Mat actually had a strong foundation for his fighting skills thanks to his noble father, who taught him how to fight with a bo staff.  Because we can’t have noble male characters, Abel was a drunk philanderer, Mat is a thief and a coward, and if he suddenly starts fighting competently they better have a good explanation other than some mystical Matrix-style fight program installation.  At the same time, the show has also dropped Rand’s training and we are presumably going to see him fight a swordmaster soon, so things like logical character progression aren’t necessarily a concern of the show.

How is Mat's staff fighting ability a logical character progression? RJ just decided in book 3 that Mat was an expert staff fighter and had always been, yet that skill was never mentioned once in books 1 and 2. You'd think that Mat would at least have brought his staff when he left TR, but he only brought his bow.
How is Rand's sword fighting ability a logical character progression? By training on and off for a few months with Lan, then he's suddenly good enough to beat a real blademaster?
How is Perrin's axe fighting ability a logical character progression? By going berserker he is suddenly good with wielding an axe as well? If it's from his wolfbrother ability, then he should only be as good a fighter as a wolf and he should be biting people, not wielding an axe proficiently.
 

[Mirefox]

44 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

By that logic, Explain Perrin freeing Aviendha?

 

Did they explain Perrin's fighting ability? Or are we thinking everyone's just hand waving his fighting ability as he's big and stronk, with wolf-skills?

So out of roughly 13 hours of show you think Perrin freeing Avi from a cage is demonstration that we have strong, noble characters?

 

Perrin has done next to nothing in this show outside of being a wife killer.  He has stood by and watch his friends and companions suffer.  He had to be saved from the Whitecloaks by Eg, he stood by and watched three Shinearans and Loial get stabbed, he showed no backbone against the Seanchen and let Uno die, only to do what he should have done before Uno’s death immediately after.  That he managed to open a cage to free a woman is no huge heroic feat.  On top of that, Avi 100% steals the scene immediately after and we see Perrin, usually in the background, swinging a splitting axe but we are praising his battle prowess?

[Robbin Poh]

You are a really glass half empty person, aren't you.

[Elder_Haman]

50 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

Perrin has done next to nothing in this show outside of being a wife killer.  He has stood by and watch his friends and companions suffer.  He had to be saved from the Whitecloaks by Eg, he stood by and watched three Shinearans and Loial get stabbed, he showed no backbone against the Seanchen and let Uno die, only to do what he should have done before Uno’s death immediately after.  That he managed to open a cage to free a woman is no huge heroic feat.  On top of that, Avi 100% steals the scene immediately after and we see Perrin, usually in the background, swinging a splitting axe but we are praising his battle prowess?

So, what you’re saying is that Perrin is a person who spent most of the series this far frozen by indecision because of a horrible trauma he experienced and that he now shows signs of being able to rise above that trauma?

 

It’s almost as if the writers are trying to, you know, develop him as a character. Weird. 

[SinisterDeath]

39 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

So out of roughly 13 hours of show you think Perrin freeing Avi from a cage is demonstration that we have strong, noble characters?

He went there to bury his friend, and instead helped free a caged Avi.

 

We saw a Dain give Water to Avi. (noble Act?)

 

40 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

Perrin has done next to nothing in this show outside of being a wife killer.  

Killer of Darkfriends.

 

40 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

He has stood by and watch his friends and companions suffer

That's life. You can't always protect everyone.

Almost like that's exactly what happens with Perrin later on with Faile in the books. 🤔

 

41 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

He had to be saved from the Whitecloaks by Eg

Yet I seem to recall it was Perrin that intimidated Valda with his Wolf Eyes.

 

42 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

, he stood by and watched three Shinearans and Loial get stabbed,

He was just a boy that didn't know war. He panicked. He froze. 

 

44 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

he showed no backbone against the Seanchen and let Uno die, only to do what he should have done before Uno’s death immediately after

There was no stopping Uno. 
Uno was stubburn personified. 
This was the moment where Perrin learns what happens if you put pride above all else.
 

46 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

at he managed to open a cage to free a woman is no huge heroic feat.  On top of that, Avi 100% steals the scene immediately after and we see Perrin, usually in the background, swinging a splitting axe but we are praising his battle prowess?

You must have been distracted by a pretty girl to have missed all those times Perrin saved her ass from a sword coming her way.

Perrin was in the Background yes, but he was kickin' White Cloak ass. So much so, he impressed an Aiel.
 

-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-

Something you've missed behind all this talk of "masculinity" and Perrin's apparent lack of "backbone" is the type of restraint it takes to not kill. The restraint it takes to not let that beast out. 

Perrin's personality in the books has always been one where he thinks before he does anything, because he has always been afraid that he might hurt someone if he's not careful. He figures out the solution before he acts.

We can't get his internal dialogue in a TV show, so they have to show us that in other ways.

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, Robbin Poh said:

How is Mat's staff fighting ability a logical character progression? RJ just decided in book 3 that Mat was an expert staff fighter and had always been, yet that skill was never mentioned once in books 1 and 2. You'd think that Mat would at least have brought his staff when he left TR, but he only brought his bow.
How is Rand's sword fighting ability a logical character progression? By training on and off for a few months with Lan, then he's suddenly good enough to beat a real blademaster?
How is Perrin's axe fighting ability a logical character progression? By going berserker he is suddenly good with wielding an axe as well? If it's from his wolfbrother ability, then he should only be as good a fighter as a wolf and he should be biting people, not wielding an axe proficiently.
 

I do find it amusing that people retcon Rand’s fight against the blade master to make him a great fighter. He is so massively out of his depth in that fight, Turok played with him initially purposely going easy, and then when he really kicks in Rand gets schooled. It is only by embracing the one power that Rand wins, he uses the power to enhance his abilities, although he still also gets lucky, he basically wins that fight inspite of not being a very good swordsman. 

Edited September 19, 2023 by Scarloc99

[Skipp]

4 hours ago, Mirefox said:

In the book, Mat actually had a strong foundation for his fighting skills thanks to his noble father, who taught him how to fight with a bo staff. 

 

These comments always get me.  Mats noble father, Abel Cauthon.  Such a beloved character that does so much in the books........

 

Can someone please quote me two or 3 iconic lines Abel has in the books?  Does Abel have more than 3 lines?

 

Yes in the books Mat attributes a lot of his own talents to his father, his staff fighting, his horsetrading.  but these thoughts always seem to come out of the blue when Mat needs to be good at things.

 

Abel is a fine character in the books and a source for some character background for Mat.  But let us not make the mistake as if he is some gem of character that is so important to the story that changing him wrecks the entire WoT storyline.

 

The writers clearly decided to give all 3 boys different upbringings in the Two Rivers to help separate them.  They chose to give Mat a rough home life as something he'll overcome to become the hero he believe he can never be.

[Windigo]

On 9/19/2023 at 7:12 AM, Mirefox said:

Because we can’t have noble male characters,

I struggle with understanding where in the first 2-3 books there is any indication of any of them being "noble". The Two Rivers residents were less corrupt and jaded than many of the people they meet later, the EF 5 were naïve and inexperienced,  but none of that in itself makes them "noble".  

[fra85uk]

On 9/19/2023 at 5:57 PM, Scarloc99 said:

I do find it amusing that people retcon Rand’s fight against the blade master to make him a great fighter. He is so massively out of his depth in that fight, Turok played with him initially purposely going easy, and then when he really kicks in Rand gets schooled. It is only by embracing the one power that Rand wins, he uses the power to enhance his abilities, although he still also gets lucky, he basically wins that fight inspite of not being a very good swordsman. 

As far as i remember, Rand does not use OP but wins with a combination of a little-more-than-rudimental skills coupled with his personal natural talent, underestimation by opponent, the Void and of course being lucky/ta'veren as you said.

By the way, I would be extremely surprised if show-Rand battles Turok AND Ishamael in the sky in S2 finale.

My guess is that the first fight will go to someone else and I say Aviendha.

[Robbin Poh]

Wow, I need to sit down with the person who wrote these 2 articles, we think really alike. Her 2 articles mesh with mine so perfectly

https://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/03/horn-of-valere.html?m=1
https://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/03/redressing-balance-and-boundaries-wheel.html

 

[Mirefox]

He might get them from tea...

[Robbin Poh]

I think my theory that he gets it thru the horn is more plausible on screen than getting them thru drinking potions served by Forsaken, else every darkfriend would be queuing up for this tea to get special powers. Not to mention that there was an awful lot of that wood left in the tray, if it really worked, Mat can stuff them in his pockets to feed to all his friends as well as the whole TR, then the TR army would be the leading force that forces the Seanchan to submit, unites everyone, and leads them to defeat the Sharans and darkspawn in the last battle. I can already hear all the negative reviews threatening to kill me if I were the producer.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Robbin Poh

[Robbin Poh]

Still think my theory is more solid and poignant overall, but the way EP8 did it is pretty decent too!

[grayavatar]

On 9/30/2023 at 1:25 AM, Mirefox said:

He might get them from tea...

Yep he drank some tea and now he remembers everything. Such rubbish.

[Elder_Haman]

7 hours ago, grayavatar said:

Yep he drank some tea and now he remembers everything. Such rubbish.

He didn't remember anything because of the tea. 

[Robbin Poh]

Yeah, I dunno why some viewers just believe everything that Ishy says.