Cadsuane's Sisters

[cloglord]

I came across a bit in chapter 17 of NS that I thought was pertinent to this discussion.

 

Supposedly even Amrylins had stepped warily around Cadsuane over the years. It was whispered that she had actually assaulted an Amrylin, once"

 

If she's got the clout to beat up an amrylin, then surely she could have the clout to lead (not boss around)a third of the sisters right? Her legendary status can't even be tied to her age or the status of being oldest at this point. A few pages after Moraine thinks about Cadsuane beating up an Amrylin, Cadsuane mentions that there is another sister named Meilyn that is considerably older than she is, and another retired sister that is as old.

[RobertAlexWillis]

If she's got the clout to beat up an amrylin, then surely she could have the clout to lead (not boss around)a third of the sisters right?

 

Actually ... that doesn't necessarily follow. Assaulting an Amyrlin just takes audacity. But I certainly think Cadsuane would be capable of leading the full Tower, so leadin a third of it is plausible, in the context of her ability.

 

What I don't see, in the current situation, is her need or desire to simply gather up and direct 300 or so sisters. She is very focused right now, on Rand al'Thor. I don't think her operation is much larger than what we've seen: she seems the type to value effectiveness over numbers.

 

Certainly she would use the Aes Sedai "ranking" system to basically order around any sisters she came across, but I don't think she has gathered a third of the Tower into a coherent group.

[Phiotr AlManera]

I think the dragon being reborn around that time was something most AS expected, they probably didn't say it outloud though,... (all the false dragons popping up and so)

So Cadsuane probably suspected it too and kept an eye open for saidin-related rumours.

 

So she decides at a certain point to go and try to stand by the side of the dragon, a guy who channels tainted saidin and gathers other male channelers around him. Obviously she doesn't go alone.

 

I don't think she cares much for the White Tower now the Dragon's running round. Her only goal is to enable him to win TG at a price the world can pay. To achieve this goal she will use whomever she needs, AS are quite handy for this kind of work.

So, is there a third tower? No, I don't think so.

 

As a sidenote:

I am kind of an Cadsuane fan but never the less I'm really looking forward to Cadsuane and Mat meeting. :D

[Jaric Mondoran]

If she seriously considered having Alanna transfer Rand's bond, I doubt her moral sensibilities would prevent her from using Compulsion if she deemed it necessary.

[cloglord]

I don't think that Cadsuane's focus on Rand precludes her from having the goal of reuniting the tower. She has clearly expressed how little she cares about who is in power, so long as they don't interfere with her plans for Rand. However, a divided tower is almost certainly an interference, or at the very least, has been in the form of the kidnapping of Rand in LoC.

 

Another example is the case of the black tower. Min's viewing tells us that Cadsuane will teach Rand and the ashaman a lesson that they must learn, but will not like. I don't think that she will be able to give near on 1,000 male channelers their cod liver oil without some help, no matter how persuasive/coersive she is. She'll probably need help with this. Unless, we think that cadsuane's aims for rand, and this lesson for the ashaman are the same, we have a clear example of Cadsuan aiming at at least two targets. If she can focus on two tasks, why not three? Or better yet, why doesn't she focus on Rand personally, and direct her cohorts in the administration of her other aims?

[RobertAlexWillis]

I don't think that Cadsuane's focus on Rand precludes her from having the goal of reuniting the tower.

 

While true, forming a third party that looks to her just widens the fracture. Three split groups instead of two.

 

If all she intends to do is unite the sisters that follow her with whoever wins between the rebels and the Tower, I wouldn't consider that "forming a group".

[cloglord]

While true, forming a third party that looks to her just widens the fracture. Three split groups instead of two.

 

I'm not sure that she has been gathering all of this third set of fencesitters persay, yet it is also clear that she doesn't have much confidence that the situation will resolve itself. If there were roughly a third of the sisters sitting out, I think that these sisters would appeal to Cadsuane as being the sane ones, and she try to use them to heal the tower.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I think that these sisters would appeal to Cadsuane as being the sane ones, and she try to use them to heal the tower.

 

I haven't seen any way that her actions bear that out. She basically treats any sister who took sides in the split with disdain, but I haven't seen anything that she's done to heal the breach. She tracked down Rand went on a hidden vacation with him.

 

Maybe I missed something. Is there some action shes taken, some direction shes given that indicates communicating with a large, coherent organization? I'm talking specific examples now, not "Well, she's the most respected sister".

 

Certainly, Cadsuane will give any sisters she happens across instructions, and do what she can to heal the breach that way. But thats very different from "gathering together a group" under her direction. The followers she has seem dedicated to one thing, right now: making sure Rand accomplishes whatever is in her agenda for him through Tarmon Gaidon. I don't think she expects to survive that, and I think she's right. I think that AMoL will see the end of Caduane Melaidhrin.

[cloglord]

Maybe I missed something. Is there some action shes taken, some direction shes given that indicates communicating with a large, coherent organization? I'm talking specific examples now, not "Well, she's the most respected sister".

 

Certainly, Cadsuane will give any sisters she happens across instructions, and do what she can to heal the breach that way. But thats very different from "gathering together a group" under her direction. The followers she has seem dedicated to one thing, right now: making sure Rand accomplishes whatever is in her agenda for him through Tarmon Gaidon.

 

 

WH Ch.13 Pg 311 (In my 1st edition hardback)

 

"She had begun gathering sisters she trusted, those here with her and others, the day she first heard of strange events in Shienar..."

 

Certainly those sisters with her are helping her with her with the task to hand, it is the task of these "others" that this thread is questioning. THe fact that she seems well connected enough to hear about Logain in a timely enough manner to help capture him, then to hear about Taim in a timely enough manner to help capture him, and between these events still manage to catch wind of strange events in Shienar, speaks highly of her connections within the aes sedai system of eyes and ears. Since we already know that she has enough pull with enough specific sisters to "gather them," her connectedness, despite the fact that everyone seems surprised to see her alive, is likely quite extensive, and of a somewhat secretive nature. All of this taken toghether makes for some speculicious discussion.

[lou]

cadsuane is certainly the most mysterious AS in the series, which of course makes her a point of interest. she turns up in the most unlikely of places(such as with the sisters following torasin and caroline in the woods, far madding, she even makes an appearance in new spring)i think she is working on something very complex, and being a green it will have something to do with putting things together for the last battle, that is a green sister's primary characteristic. she must be far stronger in the power than most of the sisters for them to just defer to her in almost everything.he movements also indicate that she can Travel and has been doing so for some time.who taught her this and when? in one of her povs she thinks about when she first started earning the ter'angreal she wears in her hair. what is that all about?

[Elwinn Taron]

Sorilea taught her to travel. Egwene taught the Wise Ones in the dream world.

[Phiotr AlManera]

what is that all about?

 

This has never been explained, got me very curious too.

This is about all we know of this (from http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/)

She (Cadsuane) wishes that Nynaeve had been taught more, particularly about enduring what must be endured. Cadsuane learned that lesson in the Black Hills from a toothless wilder shortly after she was raised to the shawl.

Cadsuane earned her ornaments from an old woman named Norla in the Black Hills shortly after she became Aes Sedai.

She (Norla) was also mentioned in WH,Ch34. It seems likely that this is also associated with the last task Cadsuane failed to accomplish, two hundred seventy years ago.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Since we already know that she has enough pull with enough specific sisters to "gather them," her connectedness, despite the fact that everyone seems surprised to see her alive, is likely quite extensive, and of a somewhat secretive nature.

 

The only part of that I disagree with is the phrase "is likely quite extensive". Other than that, I'm totally on-board. And there's no evidence against it being fairly extensive. I just don't see any evidence that it IS extensive, and I think we would have smelled something of them by now.

 

But if I'm wrong on this one, it won't be a complete shock. This is a casual "most likely", not a "pretty certain" in my mind.

[cloglord]

Okay, so I've been working on a re-read of LoC and Cos and found a lot of new info that might shed light on the extensiveness of Caddy's followers.

 

In Cos at the very end of Ch. 19 we have a very short Cadsuane POV where she indicates that she is behind the gathering of sisters in Carhien at Lady Arilyn's palace. Here's what she says.

 

Corele and Daigian followed in silence; they knew her well enough by now not to disturb her with chatter, which could not be said of all those who paused a few days at Arilyn's little palace before she sent them on.

 

This indicates to me that there are a lot of sisters stopping just long enough to be given instructions by Cadsuane. Clearly here, Caddy is in charge, and she is giving them directions.

 

In fact the quote I gave before from a caddy POV seems to indicate very strongly that she is very much an architect of these comings and goings.

 

WH Ch. 13

 

She had begun gathering sisters she trusted, those here with her and others, the day she first heard of strange events in Shienar...

 

Further, we know that Rand has heard about Cadsuane's sisters from the WO who meets the party near Carhien after Dumai's Wells.

 

In Ch. 3 of CoS the wise one Feraighin relates the facts about the aes sedai in carhien, I'll quote them here cutting out the back and forth between Feraighin and Sorilia.

 

It does not help that there are Aes Sedai in the city...There may be as many as ten or more, we avoid them of course...Most of them stay beneath the roof of Arilyn Dhulaine, Car'a'carn and seldom leave it.

 

So rand knows about these sisters. Also we know that Caddy's POV from CH. 19 in CoS quantifies her "all those who stop" to at least 10 at probably more, since we know that they move through pretty quickly.

 

Next we can look at Ch. 7 os ACoS, when Rand travels to Camelyn and gets his first word of sisters at the Silver Swan. Melaine starts telling him about the sisters and then Bashere finishes up, here's the quick and dirty pertinent parts of the passages.

 

'There are nine Aes Sedai at an inn called the Silver Swan, in what Davram Bashere calls the New City'...'My fault,' Bashere sighed, 'if fault there is. THough what Melaine expects to do, I can't say. Eight sisters stopped at the silve rswan almost a month ago, just after you left. Now and then a few more come or go, but ther eare never more than ten at one time. They keep to themselves, cause no trouble, and ask no questions that Bael of I can learn...'

 

in response to this Rand thinks to himself,

 

Aes Sedai gathering here, Aes Sedai gathering in Carhien. Happenstance?

 

I must ask the same question, is this happenstance? I don't think it is. Both groups have the same MO. neither the group at Arilyn's palace has more than 10, nor the group at the silver swan. Both groups keep to themselves, and both groups fluxuate both in makeup and number very regularly. No POV's from Elaida or Egwene seems to account for these groups, and are apparently operating independant of either faction in the white tower split.

 

Of course the timing and number of sisters makes me wonder if their mere presence isn't part of the point. If you believe like I do, that these groups are both under the direction of Cadsuane, it could be argued that Cadsuane put these groups in their prospective locations to drive the numbers of Aes Sedai within those cities above 13 and try to push him away from either group of emmissaries. If you see how Rand, and later Merana, reacts to the news that the number of Aes Sedai in Camelyn had reached 13, it seems likely that Cadsuane would know the result of sending an additional 8 sisters to hang out at an inn with no apparent reason. Considering that these 8 Silver Swan Sisters showed up right after Rand left, seems to indicate fortuitous timing, if this were part of the aim.

 

So, in summarry, and in conclusion, I think that Cadsuane has at least 20 sisters taking direction from her and likely far more. Lets say that Cadsuane showed up in Carhien the day that Rand was kidnapped, that's 18 day from the point were he left, tell he hears about the Aes Sedai in Arylin's palace. Cadsuane says that none of the sisters stay longer than a few days. Lets say 3. Since Cadsuane, Corele, and Daigain obviously are constants, that means that the other 7 need to turn over every three days. That means that in 18 days, Cadsuane could have met with, and sent on 42 other sisters, and that there were likely another 7 coming in to replace them. If the same formula were applied to the SilverSwanSisters, then it would have been almost a month of sisters coming and going. If we assume that Cadsuane had a 2 or 3 constant sisters there to pass on orders, it could easily encompass another 70 transient sisters passing through Camelyn. Of course, some of these SSS could be some of the same that passed through Carhien, but either way, the numbers could be 100 or more. I'm just waiting to get a clue about a group of sisters hanging out in Illian or Tear, to confirm my suspicions that the Sisters that Cadsuane has been gathering since those strange events in Shienar, are the same 3rd of the AS that have been sitting apart from the WT split.

[Luckers]

Quote:

Corele and Daigian followed in silence; they knew her well enough by now not to disturb her with chatter, which could not be said of all those who paused a few days at Arilyn's little palace before she sent them on.

 

 

This indicates to me that there are a lot of sisters stopping just long enough to be given instructions by Cadsuane. Clearly here, Caddy is in charge, and she is giving them directions.

 

The issue with this quote is that it directly links Cadsuane sending the sisters away with her irritation about their habits. 'they knew well enough not to disturb her with chatter, which could not be said of all those who paused a few days at Arilyn's palace before she sent them on.' Those sisters 'disturbed' and annoyed Cadsuane, and she sent them away. Moreover, since Arylin's palace seems to be a general hangout point for sisters in Cairhein there isn't even any need for Cadsuane to have summoned them in order that they be there.

[Guest Egwene]

I can't see that all sisters sitting on the fence are directly under Cadsuane.

 

She had begun gathering sisters she trusted

 

No way would she trust everyone just because they happen to be sitting on the fence. My interpretation is that she has gathered 30-40 sisters into her immediate close group. Those sisters in turn have been given instructions on whom to contact and what to tell. So wherever you have one of Cadsuane's group, she'll be making contact with others, both on the fence as well as tied to tower or rebellion and spread Cadsuane's message. Very similar to what Egwene is doing in the tower. Cadsuane is probably trying to direct all those sitting on the fence to her tinking, but they are not aligned with her per se.

 

What are the things that Rand needs to learn? To laugh, let himself feel emotions... I think that part is more likely managed by his women... maybe the birth of Elaynes' babies...

 

However, both he and the other Asha'men need to learn to trust that there are plenty of Aes Sedai on their side in the last battle. And that is something I could see Cadsuane being key to.

 

One group that has always fascinated me in the books is the Daughters of Silence. Only one of the two Accepted involved achieved the shawl. I wondered whether Cadsuane's Nola could be the other one. The title Daughters of Silence seems to kind of fit in with the way Cadsuane is running her lot. Given that Saerin is the other one of those two Accepted, I could see a connection there to the apparent collaboration of some Ajah Heads/sitters in the tower .

[cloglord]

I've also given some thought as to what Cadsuane is fated to teach Rand and all the Ashamen, then I re-read ACoS.

 

Ch. 18 Cadsuane says,

 

I'd have thought that even a child like Moraine could have taught you a few manners.

 

Ch. 36

 

Girl, I will hardly let the boy die when I haven't taught him manners yet.

 

Later in that same chapter in regards to Narishma

 

Another boy with no manners,"

 

I think that Rand and the Ashamen are overproud and overconfident, and that makes them haughty. Cadsuane is going to teach them humility, she's gonna teach them some manners.

 

Luckers, as for your disection of the quote, I think that you are not taking it in context of the other quotes, I provided, namely the one from WH where Cads thinks to herself that she has been gathering sisters. If she is gathering them, AND she is ordering them on, then it seems pretty clear that she is in direct control of at least these AS that are coming through Arilyn's palace.

 

The fact that Sisters of every Ajah except Red seem to congregate at these places also indicates that they aren't just some random waypoint for traveling Aes Sedai.

[Luckers]

Your right, im not, becuase i dont think they are related. I think that Cadsuane herself makes clear that these women arn't in her cadre. They irritate her, and sends them away from her.

 

Like Egwene i think the highest amount that she would have gathered is 30 to 40. Each for specific individual reasons, not the serve a political purpose in the unity of their numbers behind her, butto serve a purpose as a tool with specific skills Cadsuane may need.

[cloglord]

When Cadsuane had left a week past, leaving her in charge, her task had appeared straightforward. Make sure the Carhienin pot did not begin to boil again.

 

Regarding Samitsu, CoT Proulouge.

 

and then again a few pages later Samitsu thinks,

 

This was not the first time she had been pulled into one of the legendary Green's designs. Cadsuane could be more devious than a Blue, schemes inside plots wrapped in strategems and all hidden behind still others. Some were planned to fail in order to help others succeed, and only Cadsuane knew which were which.

 

This presents a clear example of Cadsuane directly delegating and dispensing authority over aes sedai. Further it gives us a POV that confirms that Cadsuane has a history of manipulating sisters towards her own ends. This is a hands on and direct manipulation. We don't have one single inkling from Samitsu, that her service to Cadsuane is anything other than voluntary, and being ordered by Cadsuane in the direction of one of her infamous plots doesn't seem at all unusual to her.

 

Cadsuane directly controls a number of sisters. She uses these sisters to help her carry out very complex and deep plans that are for her alone to know.

 

There are a number of unanswered questions when it comes to Aes Sedai, that a far reaching plot by Cadsuane helps to explain. For instance the presence of sisters in Camelyn at the silver swan, the objectives of the 1/3rd of sisters that is sitting things out, the means by which all of the ajah heads seem to know each other, despite the fact that they should not,....

 

I think that Cadsuane will be more intrumental than we have previously thought, in reuniting the tower, and welding them to the BT.

[cloglord]

When I went to theoryland to read Terez's theory on the Great Purge one of the quotes cited reminded me of something in support of the notion that the ajah heads are working under the direction of Cadsuane.

 

When Cadsuane first showed up, everyone seemed to think that she was dead, but Adelorna, Head of the green ajah, seems to know that Cads is alive, and wishes that she could have a crack at Egwene. It's speculative, but suggestive of a tie between at least the head of the green ajah, and the legendary green sister. At least one ajah head holds Cadsuane in high regard, and seems to know that she's not yet dead.

[balefireruinssteaks]

I think Min's viewing could be anything, but Cadsuane teaching Rand and the Asha'man manners seems far fetched. Remember that when Rand asks if Cadsuane will be his advisor, Verin relates that Cadsuane is much more interested in whether or not a person is foolish, not in charge. Cadsuane usually assumes she's going to be in charge I would imagine.

 

But Cadsuane told Sorilea that she would try to help Rand remember how to laugh and to cry...that losing his humanity might be worse than winning the Last Battle.

 

And also, when Cadsuane is critiquing Nynaeve she says that her abilities with Healing are little short of miraculous, but her abilities with anything else were dismal. And "she had not been taught the most important lesson, that what could be endured MUST be endured."

 

I think that's the lesson Min's viewing is about - because Rand has become so arrogant and the Asha'man seem to be following their leader in that.

[cloglord]

I understand, but the stated goal of the sorelia/Cadsuane exchange was to teach Rand laughter and tears, not rand and all of the Ashaman. I'm not saying that they are nessecarily unrelated, but it doesn't mean that they are either.

 

As for the manners thing, I don't mean that she will literally teach them to drink their tea with thier pinky fingers sticking up, rather she will teach them to be less arrogant and full of themselves. This will probably occur, when she teaches them that they need to rely on others, the others in this case likely being the Aes Sedai.

[cloglord]

Oh, and of course balefire ruins steaks, everyone knows that. What most people don't think about before time is that balefiring steaks ruins cows too.

[Guest Cadsuane]

LOL.

[cloglord]

I had a thought, that might not be all that earthshaking, but I think its pertinent all the same.

 

Cadsuane is the strongest Aes Sedai. Given the Aes Sedai hierarchy of sisters defering or even outright obeying other sisters based on strength, Cadsuane could give an order, that she could reasonably expect to be obeyed, to 75% of sisters. If you look into it even further, you find that the only exceptions to this hierarchy of strength is for the Amrylin, keeper, the sister's ajah head (in some ajahs,) and Sitters.

 

If we assume that the 1/3rd of the sisters that are sitting aside from the troubles in the tower, don't recognize the authority of either Amrylin, either keeper, or either hall, then by default, Cadsuane would be the uncontested boss of any of these sisters that she runs across. Most of them would naturally follow her lead, and the rest would defer to her. Cadsuane doesn't need to have sought out a position of direct leadership, she already has it. We know she's gathering sisters, and we also know that she can expect obedience from any unafiliated sisters that she encounters. She is next in the chain of command, whether she wants to be or not.