Question about damane

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

I’m currently in the middle of WH in my reread and one of the questions that came to mind that I can’t recall the details is in regards to the damane. More specifically how much control the suldam has through the link to override the damane. Normally they have total obedience and control, but what about aes sedai who are bound by the 3 oaths? Can they force them to use the one power as a weapon since they control the link, or do the oaths take precedence and prevent this from happening? To take this even further, what about a circle being led by a channeler who is not aes sedai, can they link with an aes sedai to use the power as a weapon?

[Sabio]

An Aes Sedai is still bound by the three oaths.  It would still come down to what the Aes Sedai believes.  Having the ground erupt under someone is clearly a weapon used to harm, but as we saw in other books once the Aes Sedai felt threatened that could use the power.  If the Seanchean are smart enough to look for loopholes is another thing.   I think the necklace prevents linking into  circle, at least from what I remember RJ saying.  Th

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

8 hours ago, Sabio said:

An Aes Sedai is still bound by the three oaths.  It would still come down to what the Aes Sedai believes.  Having the ground erupt under someone is clearly a weapon used to harm, but as we saw in other books once the Aes Sedai felt threatened that could use the power.  If the Seanchean are smart enough to look for loopholes is another thing.   I think the necklace prevents linking into  circle, at least from what I remember RJ saying.  Th

Ok thank you for clarifying! It seems like the seanchan utilize the damane largely as weapons, so I wonder how that issue is handled when they capture and collar oath bound aes sedai. They can’t be nearly as valuable and I wonder to what use they are put to. I don’t recall if we see it addressed or not.
 

In terms of linking into a circle, I was curious about that scenario in general, not necessarily specifically suldam. For example when the sea folk led the circle to use the bowl of the winds, since the circle included aes Sedai bound by the oaths but the person controlling it is not bound by any oaths, does the inclusion of aes Sedai in the circle now bind the leader as well, for as long as they are drawing on oath altered OP? 

Edited June 1, 2023 by Lightfriendsocialmistress

[Sabio]

They could still be used for finding ore, building stuff, making gateways now, manipulating weather/wind and such,

 

That's a good question.  I know the big difference between a normal circle and what the Seanchen do is the collar forces the channeler into a link but the Suldam contributes nothing and is just controlling the flows.  They are forcing the person to channel, so if it goes against the oaths that person simply can't do it.  Where a circle everyone is contributing, even the person directing it.  Seems like it's then up to the person leading the circle.  Once you're in a circle I don't think there is anyway to get out of it or block your power.  

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

3 hours ago, Sabio said:

They could still be used for finding ore, building stuff, making gateways now, manipulating weather/wind and such,

 

That's a good question.  I know the big difference between a normal circle and what the Seanchen do is the collar forces the channeler into a link but the Suldam contributes nothing and is just controlling the flows.  They are forcing the person to channel, so if it goes against the oaths that person simply can't do it.  Where a circle everyone is contributing, even the person directing it.  Seems like it's then up to the person leading the circle.  Once you're in a circle I don't think there is anyway to get out of it or block your power.  

Interesting… I appreciate you applying your knowledge of the magic system to these specific situations. I couldn’t find an answer to the second scenario within my own internal analysis, but the way you deduce the answer from what information is available makes sense. Likewise in the first scenario. It stands to reason that while the suldam are controlling the damane, they still have to work within the existing parameters in terms of the abilities and limits of each individual damane. On the other hand, the person who is leading a circle seems to be drawing on and amplifying the power through the participants, but once the participants surrender control to the leader they no longer have any influence or ability to affect how the leader uses it. Thank you for breaking it down for me, I hate it when I can’t make sense of something!

Edited June 2, 2023 by Lightfriendsocialmistress

[Nasuadax]

On 6/1/2023 at 8:11 AM, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

In terms of linking into a circle, I was curious about that scenario in general, not necessarily specifically suldam. For example when the sea folk led the circle to use the bowl of the winds, since the circle included aes Sedai bound by the oaths but the person controlling it is not bound by any oaths, does the inclusion of aes Sedai in the circle now bind the leader as well, for as long as they are drawing on oath altered OP? 

from what i understood the Oaths are all about the opinion of the oathtaker. There is no major power forcing things upon them, but a mental/physical inability to do things that you perceive as breaking the oaths.

 

This means that an Aes sedai cannot go into a circle knowing it will be used as a weapon without provocation. But if they are tricked into a circle, there is nothing blocking the master of the circle to use the full power of the circle as a weapon. Of course, as soon as the aes sedai notices the real goal, she will feel forced to try and escape it if she cannot consciously comply with the Oaths, but at this point, that is mainly impossible. 

As my opinion on the seanchan bracelets: As the book often suggests there are ways to remove the oaths. i always figured the seanchans knew of this and at one point in time forced this upon their da'mane. seeing as they were basically given their knowledge by a black aes sedai or one of the chosen dark ones, i think it is plausible this knowledge was passed with it. We never saw it in the book as the character was never far enough in the process of being mentally broken to force this.

 

the fact that the bracelets do not physically force them to do anything, but only causes pain and other things, means that the da'mane still choose to follow the orders and thus would still be bound to their Oaths as they are aware of what they are doing. This implies the oaths not applying anymore. How they are broken is for the reader to guess, but in the earlier paragraphs i suggested my opinion.

 

happy to hear your opinion on these topics and read what i missed/got wrong.

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

15 hours ago, Nasuadax said:

from what i understood the Oaths are all about the opinion of the oathtaker. There is no major power forcing things upon them, but a mental/physical inability to do things that you perceive as breaking the oaths.

 

This means that an Aes sedai cannot go into a circle knowing it will be used as a weapon without provocation. But if they are tricked into a circle, there is nothing blocking the master of the circle to use the full power of the circle as a weapon. Of course, as soon as the aes sedai notices the real goal, she will feel forced to try and escape it if she cannot consciously comply with the Oaths, but at this point, that is mainly impossible. 

As my opinion on the seanchan bracelets: As the book often suggests there are ways to remove the oaths. i always figured the seanchans knew of this and at one point in time forced this upon their da'mane. seeing as they were basically given their knowledge by a black aes sedai or one of the chosen dark ones, i think it is plausible this knowledge was passed with it. We never saw it in the book as the character was never far enough in the process of being mentally broken to force this.

 

the fact that the bracelets do not physically force them to do anything, but only causes pain and other things, means that the da'mane still choose to follow the orders and thus would still be bound to their Oaths as they are aware of what they are doing. This implies the oaths not applying anymore. How they are broken is for the reader to guess, but in the earlier paragraphs i suggested my opinion.

 

happy to hear your opinion on these topics and read what i missed/got wrong.

Thank you for sharing your insights, what you said and how you explained it makes sense!

[Kalessin]

20 hours ago, Nasuadax said:

from what i understood the Oaths are all about the opinion of the oathtaker. There is no major power forcing things upon them, but a mental/physical inability to do things that you perceive as breaking the oaths.

 

This means that an Aes sedai cannot go into a circle knowing it will be used as a weapon without provocation. But if they are tricked into a circle, there is nothing blocking the master of the circle to use the full power of the circle as a weapon. Of course, as soon as the aes sedai notices the real goal, she will feel forced to try and escape it if she cannot consciously comply with the Oaths, but at this point, that is mainly impossible. 

As my opinion on the seanchan bracelets: As the book often suggests there are ways to remove the oaths. i always figured the seanchans knew of this and at one point in time forced this upon their da'mane. seeing as they were basically given their knowledge by a black aes sedai or one of the chosen dark ones, i think it is plausible this knowledge was passed with it. We never saw it in the book as the character was never far enough in the process of being mentally broken to force this.

 

the fact that the bracelets do not physically force them to do anything, but only causes pain and other things, means that the da'mane still choose to follow the orders and thus would still be bound to their Oaths as they are aware of what they are doing. This implies the oaths not applying anymore. How they are broken is for the reader to guess, but in the earlier paragraphs i suggested my opinion.

 

happy to hear your opinion on these topics and read what i missed/got wrong.

The Aes Sedai in the part of the world that became the Seanchan Empire were out of touch with the Randland Aes Sedai after the Breaking and the loss of the Art of Traveling. And their behaviour indicates they were probably a mixture of Darkfriend Aes Sedai and original Aes Sedai trapped into a never-ending cycle of hostilities by the Darkfriend Aes Sedai for at least two thousand years. The Randland Aes Sedai instituted the Three Oaths after the Trolloc Wars, when in the chaos of the time, they lost their original oversight of the nations of the time, and had to "prove" themselves to the new nations that sprang up after the three hundred years of devastation.

 

Given that the pre-Seanchan Aes Sedai were happily murdering each other when Luthair Paendrag arrived on the scene, it's highly doubtful that there were any Three Oaths to remove.

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

19 hours ago, Kalessin said:

The Aes Sedai in the part of the world that became the Seanchan Empire were out of touch with the Randland Aes Sedai after the Breaking and the loss of the Art of Traveling. And their behaviour indicates they were probably a mixture of Darkfriend Aes Sedai and original Aes Sedai trapped into a never-ending cycle of hostilities by the Darkfriend Aes Sedai for at least two thousand years. The Randland Aes Sedai instituted the Three Oaths after the Trolloc Wars, when in the chaos of the time, they lost their original oversight of the nations of the time, and had to "prove" themselves to the new nations that sprang up after the three hundred years of devastation.

 

Given that the pre-Seanchan Aes Sedai were happily murdering each other when Luthair Paendrag arrived on the scene, it's highly doubtful that there were any Three Oaths to remove.

Thank you for providing additional historical context! Since you seem to be knowledgeable about the history, I’m wondering if you (or anyone) can answer a question for me. I seem to recall something pointing to artur hawkwing being instrumental in the formation and implementation of the 3 oaths, as a way to end the siege of tar valon. My memory is foggy though so I’m not certain if this is accurate, but I feel like I remember something about this. If this is in fact true, then that combined with another thing that I seem to recall which was that he had a deep and thorough mistrust of aes sedai, it seemed to me that since the seanchan were his descendants/armies, (right?), that is why they perceive and deal with channelers as they do. Can you confirm if any of this is correct?

[Kalessin]

As I remember reading, the Three Oaths came about after the Trolloc Wars, about a thousand years after the Breaking. When King Artur Paendrag Tanreall happened along, it was about a thousand years after the Trolloc Wars. He distrusted Aes Sedai, iirc, and after a long time distrusting them, he laid siege to Tar Valon. I don't recall any reason given for that in any of the WoT series. I don't own all the extra books, though; it may have been given there, but I don't know.

 

Ishamael aka Baalzamon lka Moridin tells Rand in one of the dreams in TEotW:

" I whispered in Artur Hawkwing's ear, and the length and breadth of the land Aes Sedai died. I whispered again, and the High King sent his armies across the Aryth Ocean, across the World Sea, and sealed two dooms. The doom of his dream of one land and one people, and a doom yet to come. At his deathbed I was there when his councilors told him only Aes Sedai could save his life. I spoke, and he ordered his councilors to the stake. I spoke, and the High King's last words were to cry that Tar Valon must be destroyed."

 

The Seanchan are descendants of his armies and his son Luthair Paendrag and the inhabitants of those lands across the Aryth Ocean. From TGH:

"Egwene knew incredulity must be painting her face, because Renna laughed openly. "When Luthair Paendrag Mondwin, son of the Hawkwing, first faced the Armies of the Night, he found many among them who called themselves Aes Sedai. They contended for power among themselves and used the One Power on the field of battle. One such, a woman named Deain, who thought she could do better serving the Emperor - he was not Emperor then, of course - since he had no Aes Sedai in his armies, came to him with a device she had made, the first a'dam, fastened to the neck of one of her sisters. Though that woman did not want to serve Luthair, the a'dam required her to serve. Deain made more a'dam, the first sul'dam were found, and women captured who called themselves Aes Sedai discovered that they were in fact only marath'damane, Those Who Must Be Leashed. It is said that - when she herself was leashed, Deain's screams shook the Towers of Midnight, but of course she, too, was a marath'damane, and marath'damane cannot be allowed to run free. Perhaps you will be one of those who has the ability to make a'dam. If so, you will be pampered, you may rest assured." "

Edited June 10, 2023 by Kalessin

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

On 6/10/2023 at 3:49 AM, Kalessin said:

As I remember reading, the Three Oaths came about after the Trolloc Wars, about a thousand years after the Breaking. When King Artur Paendrag Tanreall happened along, it was about a thousand years after the Trolloc Wars. He distrusted Aes Sedai, iirc, and after a long time distrusting them, he laid siege to Tar Valon. I don't recall any reason given for that in any of the WoT series. I don't own all the extra books, though; it may have been given there, but I don't know.

 

Ishamael aka Baalzamon lka Moridin tells Rand in one of the dreams in TEotW:

" I whispered in Artur Hawkwing's ear, and the length and breadth of the land Aes Sedai died. I whispered again, and the High King sent his armies across the Aryth Ocean, across the World Sea, and sealed two dooms. The doom of his dream of one land and one people, and a doom yet to come. At his deathbed I was there when his councilors told him only Aes Sedai could save his life. I spoke, and he ordered his councilors to the stake. I spoke, and the High King's last words were to cry that Tar Valon must be destroyed."

 

The Seanchan are descendants of his armies and his son Luthair Paendrag and the inhabitants of those lands across the Aryth Ocean. From TGH:

"Egwene knew incredulity must be painting her face, because Renna laughed openly. "When Luthair Paendrag Mondwin, son of the Hawkwing, first faced the Armies of the Night, he found many among them who called themselves Aes Sedai. They contended for power among themselves and used the One Power on the field of battle. One such, a woman named Deain, who thought she could do better serving the Emperor - he was not Emperor then, of course - since he had no Aes Sedai in his armies, came to him with a device she had made, the first a'dam, fastened to the neck of one of her sisters. Though that woman did not want to serve Luthair, the a'dam required her to serve. Deain made more a'dam, the first sul'dam were found, and women captured who called themselves Aes Sedai discovered that they were in fact only marath'damane, Those Who Must Be Leashed. It is said that - when she herself was leashed, Deain's screams shook the Towers of Midnight, but of course she, too, was a marath'damane, and marath'damane cannot be allowed to run free. Perhaps you will be one of those who has the ability to make a'dam. If so, you will be pampered, you may rest assured." "

Thank you for your response and for providing the added context from the passages from the books! I think I missed something though, maybe you can clarify. You stated that the 3 oaths were actually introduced after the trolloc wars, and the passage from TGH points out that the Aes Sedai were using the OP on the field of battle. I took that to mean that using the OP on the field of battle was just another way of saying it was used as a weapon. Did I misinterpret the meaning? Were they using the one power defensively only? Thanks again for your help!

[Kalessin]

The passage from TGH is when Renna, a Seanchan sul'dam, is explaining to her new Damane, Egwene soon to be known as Tuli, the history of the marath'damane, the a'dam, the sul'dam and the damane. Apparently the Trolloc Wars never touched Seanchan, or at least that is what I've managed to understand from hints dropped in the books. And that was because the Aes Sedai in that part of the world, have gone through the Portal Stones to bring back the grolm, the raken, and other such creatures, which made short work of the Trollocs and Myrdraal.

 

So the people calling themselves Aes Sedai in Seanchan were every Aes Sedai for herself, and the Dark One take the hindmost. And they had not developed any central authority, much less bound themselves by any oaths. In effect, they are no longer Aes Sedai as understood before the War of Power; in no way "Servants of All". And as such, not bound by the Age of Legends' traditions of service, and not bound by any oaths to limit their use of the One Power, they seem to have gleefully used it in battle.

 

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Three_Oaths

goes into it. You might find it useful.

[Scarloc99]

On 5/31/2023 at 11:02 PM, Sabio said:

An Aes Sedai is still bound by the three oaths.  It would still come down to what the Aes Sedai believes.  Having the ground erupt under someone is clearly a weapon used to harm, but as we saw in other books once the Aes Sedai felt threatened that could use the power.  If the Seanchean are smart enough to look for loopholes is another thing.   I think the necklace prevents linking into  circle, at least from what I remember RJ saying.  Th

Tuon states to herself at one point that captured Mathra Damme can’t be used as weapons no matter how hard they are punished, but do have other uses. She actually thinks as an aside that the “lies” about the 3 oaths might be true.