That pipe mystery…possible explanation?

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

Hi fellow WoT fans! I’m new to the community so I please forgive me if I may have missed this potential discussion in a thread posted previously. Is it just me, or did anyone else interpret the lighting of Rands pipe as almost a nod to the Aiel and one other culture (tremalking perhaps? I am only on first reread so my memory of initial read isn’t the best) who viewed life as a dream, combined with what we know about tel’aran’rhod. If you become a master of the world of dreams, whatever you think becomes so. Could it be that Rand conquered the next level of “the dream”? Seeing the world as the aiel so much so that thought becomes reality?

[wotfan4472]

If Rand truly believed in seeing the world as the Aiel do, then it is entirely possible that the pipe is an extension of that culture view of life according to Rand himself.

I think, however, that he will be the only one to do this in this way if it is that answer. 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this. I tend to agree with you that if his lighting the pipe in that way is because he has mastered the ability to shape or even control reality by thought (much the way tel’aran’rhiod works), potentially pointing to the possibility that the way to awakening or enlightenment or mastery or whatever is to realize the world is much like a dream, and it’s his dream, so he would be the only one to exhibit that ability. It’s a pretty common theme/belief in metaphysics and spirituality in our world as well, “reality” being illusion/dream/simulation etc

[Scarloc99]

I see it slightly differently, I see it as him mastering his abilities as Ta'veren. Those have not gone away, but now, instead of it being random he has complete mastery and can just control the wheel as he wishes. He wants the pipe to be lit, so it is. He can make almost anything happen, and won’t have to worry about random weddings, or deaths. 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

AHHHH I like that a lot. It makes me consider the nature of taveren and the apparent strength differences, kind of like how channelers are all able to touch the source but there is a vast and broad variation in terms of their strength. We have 3 known taveren, but only Rand seems to have fully embraced it at the highest level. Thanks for your perspective. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

On 1/29/2023 at 12:17 PM, Scarloc99 said:

I see it slightly differently, I see it as him mastering his abilities as Ta'veren. Those have not gone away, but now, instead of it being random he has complete mastery and can just control the wheel as he wishes. He wants the pipe to be lit, so it is. He can make almost anything happen, and won’t have to worry about random weddings, or deaths. 

But, but, but, the pattern is balance. If Rand was doing this, it could be messing about with powers that he has no concept of (does that sound ominous enough?). How would the pattern balance the lighting of his pipe out? 

 

Wait, you mean, all those time that my lighter did not work when I smoked, getting cramp from trying to cup my hand in some way that could shield the cigarette from 360 degrees in the Edinburgh wind... Rand, I hate you.

[DojoToad]

2 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

But, but, but, the pattern is balance. If Rand was doing this, it could be messing about with powers that he has no concept of (does that sound ominous enough?). How would the pattern balance the lighting of his pipe out? 

 

Wait, you mean, all those time that my lighter did not work when I smoked, getting cramp from trying to cup my hand in some way that could shield the cigarette from 360 degrees in the Edinburgh wind... Rand, I hate you.

Uh-oh.  Fiction reaching into the real world again.  Damn!

[Jsbrads2]

The simplest read, is that Rand got a gift from the Creator.

More complex, at the Bore, he was able to manipulate the threads of the pattern and that ability stuck with him.

Even more complex, the ability to manipulate the world was always present but he never believed he could so he created an intermediate way of doing things, like a block, preventing from seeing the limitless power he always had access to, and after he sidestepped that at the Bore the illusion disappeared and he didn’t take the time to reform the illusion/Block. 

[TravellingIsAGatewayDrug]

On 1/28/2023 at 1:45 AM, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Hi fellow WoT fans! I’m new to the community so I please forgive me if I may have missed this potential discussion in a thread posted previously. Is it just me, or did anyone else interpret the lighting of Rands pipe as almost a nod to the Aiel and one other culture (tremalking perhaps? I am only on first reread so my memory of initial read isn’t the best) who viewed life as a dream, combined with what we know about tel’aran’rhod. If you become a master of the world of dreams, whatever you think becomes so. Could it be that Rand conquered the next level of “the dream”? Seeing the world as the aiel so much so that thought becomes reality?

I think that is a fair point. I believe they were attempting to forshadow that viewpoint as they were rather heavy handed with Perrin's Wolf Dream experiences impacting how he tried to interact in the real world and then remembering he wasn't in the Dream I.E. Trying to shift, trying to teleport things into his hands, etc.

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

10 hours ago, TravellingIsAGatewayDrug said:

I think that is a fair point. I believe they were attempting to forshadow that viewpoint as they were rather heavy handed with Perrin's Wolf Dream experiences impacting how he tried to interact in the real world and then remembering he wasn't in the Dream I.E. Trying to shift, trying to teleport things into his hands, etc.

Yes, exactly! Thanks for your response and input. As we read about Perrin and also Egwene building their skills in TAR and eventually achieving a complete and total understanding of how to master it and bend it to their will, it was accomplished by knowing without any doubt that what they believed/thought/desired to manifest in the dream would indeed happen and be real. If more than one person is involved in orchestrating the events of a situation, it’s the one with the strongest will who will decide the outcome. We see many examples of how the experience had by anyone in TAR is dependent on their internal belief of its reality or unreality, and how strongly and confidently they believe in and enforce their mental projection. That’s why I like the idea (believed by the aiel among others) of the world being just another level of the dream from which everyone will wake, and that’s why Rand was able to manipulate the pattern purely by the power of thought. Channeling isn’t all that different, it’s just an extra step that becomes obsolete if the mind controls the pattern directly rather than first accessing the OP to do so. Who knows what the reason is meant to be, I just like to believe it’s this!!

[Ioulaum]

The concept was overall dodgy since channeling is supposed to be linked to the soul, and that's a hard addiction to get rid of.

 

The ending seemed to be breaking the established rules of the world... Which was kinda fine, but also unnecessary.

 

I personally assumed that it was Creator power.

[Aan-Alone]

On 1/29/2023 at 6:17 AM, Scarloc99 said:

I see it as him mastering his abilities as Ta'veren. Those have not gone away

Last Battle is over. Bore is perfectly resealed, so as to appear never breached. Why does the Pattern need Rand to still be Ta'veren?

As I understand things [feel free to grab an industrial-sized salt lick] being Ta'veren is up to the needs of the Pattern and functions as a correction mechanism for the Pattern. What threat to the Pattern remains?

Or are you suggesting he over-wrote/over-rode the Pattern in this instance to give himself powers? As that seems completely out of character for the Rand we know.

 

I'm curious how you justify your position, not that you need to justify anything. To anyone. Ever.I've read some of your other posts and you don't strike me as the kind of person who would say something like this and leave the statement to stand all on its own. So I guess I'm asking you to share a little more with us. Pretty please. With some cherries and sprinkles on top. 😀

[Aan-Alone]

I subscribe to the theory that TA'R is the 'real' world and the reality of "Randland" is just a shard split off from T'A'R. Rand realizes this during his Pattern-weaving lessons with the Dark One. I found a link to the theory in another thread on Dragonmount. You can also view the knowledge of the true nature of reality, and Rand's newfound ability, as a gift from the Pattern.

[Scarloc99]

On 12/8/2023 at 3:45 PM, Aan-Alone said:

Last Battle is over. Bore is perfectly resealed, so as to appear never breached. Why does the Pattern need Rand to still be Ta'veren?

As I understand things [feel free to grab an industrial-sized salt lick] being Ta'veren is up to the needs of the Pattern and functions as a correction mechanism for the Pattern. What threat to the Pattern remains?

Or are you suggesting he over-wrote/over-rode the Pattern in this instance to give himself powers? As that seems completely out of character for the Rand we know.

 

I'm curious how you justify your position, not that you need to justify anything. To anyone. Ever.I've read some of your other posts and you don't strike me as the kind of person who would say something like this and leave the statement to stand all on its own. So I guess I'm asking you to share a little more with us. Pretty please. With some cherries and sprinkles on top. 😀

At the end of the day it is all conjecture but when I say controlling his powers of Taveran I mean something new and different, maybe the next step of evolution of the power. Although I will be honest this thought does change year to year and with no answer we can never really know so I am more then happy to read your reasons why this can’t be the case. 
 

The one thing I will say we don’t know that the pattern is fully done, RJ had follow up stories on planned who knows what part the 3 boys would play in them. What part Rand has on leading humanity into the next age, we know he will live a long long long life (assuming he isn’t killed). 

[Aan-Alone]

Thanks for responding. I agree we can never know the full extend of what RJ had planned, but it is fun and entertaining to speculate. I also agree that we don't know if the pattern is finished with any of the remaining super-boys/girls or what role Rand might have played in the 4th Age.

 

And as much as it galls me to admit, I thought of a reason to keep Rand Ta'veren, or at least a reason for Rand to have some kind of newfound power...Lanfear. I found her supposed death very satisfying for some reason. Perhaps because of what she was trying to do, or get Perrin to do, in the cave at the end of AMoL.

 

Upon further musing I can't think of a really good reason for RJ to have killed her off, besides spite for her actions throughout the series. As an agent of Shadow, Lanfear was THE most ineffective of the Forsaken (please someone correct me if I'm mistaken on this). And I suspect this is part of the reason why she was mind-trapped. From what I can recall, everything she did was to serve her own wants/desires above everything, and everyone else...Dark One included.

 

Team Jordan's reveal that Lanfear still lives, and the explanation of how and why, left me with the impression that Lanfear wants to fade into the background. But I see this as very out-of-character for her. And as I read above, the Pattern is about maintaining balance. In this respect I could see Rand, and his newfound powers of shaping reality, as a counter-point to the threat of Lanfear, the knowledge she carries from the AoL, and the fact the she is still remains an agent of Shadow.

 

I wonder if she considers herself Nae'blis by default? I also wonder what ever happened to her Cou'sova(sp?)?