On the meaning of names

[Samt]

One of the interesting things about the POV system is that certain characters are referred to by different names based on what POV they are in.  Faile, for instance, is called Zarine early on, but after book 4 pretty much is never called Zarine again except when she meets her parents.  

 

Many characters that have multiple names or who get reincarnated or disguised are referred to by different names at different times.  Lanfear is called Cyndane for a while, but at the end of AMoL, she is still referred to as Lanfear.  Zen Rand calls Morridin Elan since presumably that was how they met.  

 

Dark Rand, in his mindset of seeing the Ashaman as tools, refers to them by their surnames.  Narishma is always referred to as Narishma by Rand through this time period.  But when he gets bonded to an Aes Sedai, the Aes Sedai always calls him Jahar.  This makes sense that Aes Sedai relationships with their Warders are very close and personal.  

 

One thing I don't really understand is why Mazrim Taim is always referred to as Taim when only one name is used (no one calls him Mazrim).  On the other hand, Logain Ablar is always Logain when only one name is used and never Ablar.  Does one of them come from a surname first culture?  

 

What interesting things did you notice about the names that get used?

Edited January 23, 2023 by Samt

[Gypsum]

I can't think of a single female character referred to by only her surname.

 

Can anyone else?

Edited January 23, 2023 by Gypsum

[Samt]

3 hours ago, Gypsum said:

I can't think of a single female character referred to by only her surname.

 

Can anyone else?

Interesting.  Certainly there are women referred to by a title+surname (Mistress Anan, for instance as well as probably several Lady+surname examples).  But a surname alone is not something I can remember.  

[Gypsum]

11 hours ago, Samt said:

Interesting.  Certainly there are women referred to by a title+surname (Mistress Anan, for instance as well as probably several Lady+surname examples).  But a surname alone is not something I can remember.  

 

I think it's primarily (maybe only) female innkeepers called Mistress+surname.

 

Perhaps unconscious gender bias on Jordan's part? This is a phenomenon that goes way beyond The Wheel of Time. https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2018/07/when-last-comes-first-gender-bias-names

 

You see it in medicine. https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/why-are-female-doctors-introduced-by-first-name-while-men-are-called-doctor/2017/06/23/b790ddf2-4572-11e7-a196-a1bb629f64cb_story.html?utm_term=.de35ece22dd7

 

The Metro is not known for its great journalism, but this article is actually rather good. https://metro.co.uk/2018/03/04/referring-to-women-by-their-first-names-and-men-by-their-surname-is-a-form-of-gender-discrimination-7325551/

 

How often do female politicians, say, get referred to by their entire name or first name compared to their male counterparts? With a few exceptions, like Margaret Thatcher who everyone calls Thatcher. But how many times have you heard or read about Kevin, the current Speaker of the House, in comparison to Nancy, the former one?

https://www.theeagleonline.com/article/2020/10/opinion-calling-women-in-power-by-their-first-names-widens-the-gender-gap

 

It's pervasive. We all kind of do it without thinking.

 

When I was writing my latest novel (not fantasy.... a police novel set in New York City), I referred to familiar characters, the male protagonist and his friends or people he knew well, by their first names. Very absentmindedly, in early drafts, more distant or more unfamiliar female characters also got called by their first names, while equally as unfamiliar male characters got called by their surnames. During a subsequent edit, I noticed this and thought, "Huh. Interesting." 

 

I could not, offhand anyway, think of many books, especially in the crime/police procedural genre but not just that, where men and women are referred to by last names and first names in a totally equal manner, commensurate with the style or POV of the book. What I mean by that is if you have a chapter written in Mazrim Taim's POV, for example, why is he thinking of himself as Taim and not Mazrim?

 

I went through my novel and changed the female characters' names to their surnames in any instance where I would have unconsciously used a male character's surname. One step forward for gender equality in fiction.

 

We can't ask Jordan what he was thinking, but I would hazard a guess that the cultural biases that lead to people talking or writing about Kamala, Hillary, and Marie Curie leeched into the novels.

Edited January 24, 2023 by Gypsum

[Samt]

3 hours ago, Gypsum said:

 

I think it's primarily (maybe only) female innkeepers called Mistress+surname.

 

Perhaps unconscious gender bias on Jordan's part? This is a phenomenon that goes way beyond The Wheel of Time. https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2018/07/when-last-comes-first-gender-bias-names

 

You see it in medicine. https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/why-are-female-doctors-introduced-by-first-name-while-men-are-called-doctor/2017/06/23/b790ddf2-4572-11e7-a196-a1bb629f64cb_story.html?utm_term=.de35ece22dd7

 

The Metro is not known for its great journalism, but this article is actually rather good. https://metro.co.uk/2018/03/04/referring-to-women-by-their-first-names-and-men-by-their-surname-is-a-form-of-gender-discrimination-7325551/

 

How often do female politicians, say, get referred to by their entire name or first name compared to their male counterparts? With a few exceptions, like Margaret Thatcher who everyone calls Thatcher. But how many times have you heard or read about Kevin, the current Speaker of the House, in comparison to Nancy, the former one?

https://www.theeagleonline.com/article/2020/10/opinion-calling-women-in-power-by-their-first-names-widens-the-gender-gap

 

It's pervasive. We all kind of do it without thinking.

 

When I was writing my latest novel (not fantasy.... a police novel set in New York City), I referred to familiar characters, the male protagonist and his friends or people he knew well, by their first names. Very absentmindedly, in early drafts, more distant or more unfamiliar female characters also got called by their first names, while equally as unfamiliar male characters got called by their surnames. During a subsequent edit, I noticed this and thought, "Huh. Interesting." 

 

I could not, offhand anyway, think of many books, especially in the crime/police procedural genre but not just that, where men and women are referred to by last names and first names in a totally equal manner, commensurate with the style or POV of the book. What I mean by that is if you have a chapter written in Mazrim Taim's POV, for example, why is he thinking of himself as Taim and not Mazrim?

 

I went through my novel and changed the female characters' names to their surnames in any instance where I would have unconsciously used a male character's surname. One step forward for gender equality in fiction.

 

We can't ask Jordan what he was thinking, but I would hazard a guess that the cultural biases that lead to people talking or writing about Kamala, Hillary, and Marie Curie leeched into the novels.

There is definitely a difference between calling someone by their surname only and calling them by a title+surname.  The lack of female characters being called by surname only is perhaps a sign of bias, but it's not as if the use of surname only is really ever a good thing in WoT, as far as I can think of examples.  I think that calling Ashaman by surname only is intended to be dehumanizing.  They are tools, weapons, perhaps soldiers.  But they are not seen as fully formed people with feelings and relationships and a past and future.  Of course, in Rand's defense, this is also how he sees himself at this time.  

 

The other example of surname only would be the way that some of the antagonists refer to the main three ta'veren.  Padan Fain raves about Al'Thor.  The whitecloaks are hunting Aybara. The forsaken talk about hunting Cauthon.  Some of this perhaps comes from the fact that this is the only name that certain antagonists have to go on at certain times.  But in general, I would say it is again a way of dehumanizing.  The antagonists don't see the ta'veren as humans, but rather as forces that that need to be hunted down and destroyed.  

 

Of course, there are lots of reasons for surname only addresses in the real world.  But if we look at the way that RJ is using it in WoT, it is mostly pejorative in some way.  The fact that he doesn't seem to ever use it for female characters is thus some type of respect shown to these characters.  Indeed, that is a different type of bias (Paternalistic sexism, perhaps) and addressing this bias is actually somewhat of a theme in the series.  All three of the main ta'veren have struggles around the risk that is posed to women and feel extra guilt when women die.  One of Rand's epiphany's at Shayol Gul is realizing that the members of the forces of light, both the men and the women, are consciously risking themselves for the greater good.  Denying women the right to die in the fight against the shadow is to deny them the agency to chose the side that they fight for.  

 

It's impossible to say exactly all of the reasoning that RJ used when writing his story, but I wouldn't jump to the conclusion of unconscious bias.  It's quite possible that he was demonstrating the bias of the characters.  Rand was quite willing to reduce the Ashaman to weapons.  Even Dark Rand would never have done that if they were women.

Edited January 24, 2023 by Samt

[Gypsum]

5 hours ago, Samt said:

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion of unconscious bias. 

 

I would. Plenty of people throughout the series have fallen out with Nynaeve, Egwene, and Siuan, for example, but do they ever call them al'Meara, al'Vere, or Sanche? No. No they do not. You might get something totally demeaning and horrifically patronizing like "the al'Vere girl," but at no point does she ever get called al'Vere.

 

In Gareth Bryne's POV chapters, he's referred to as Bryne. Same with Pedron Niall, Asunawa (what is that guy's first name? I don't know), Bayle Domon. Obviously Asha'man as well (until we meet Androl, who was Sanderson's creation so he doesn't count). I'm going to keep a list now. I'm only at Lord of Chaos in this reread. I have a lot of books to go. But this was the pattern way before the Asha'man.

 

All Aes Sedai, from antagonists like Elaida and Galina to friends like Moiraine and Verin, are referred to by their first names. Dodgy Darkfriend female? Seanchean sul'dam? Still first name. Regardless of how familiar they are to readers/other characters, whether or not they are 'bad guys,' or the authority they hold.

 

The thing with unconscious bias is that you have no idea that you're doing it. I did it with my own work, but I picked up on it. I am also female, and it was 2022. Would a male writer in 1990s and early 2000s have even had that on his radar?

[Samt]

38 minutes ago, Gypsum said:

 

I would. Plenty of people throughout the series have fallen out with Nynaeve, Egwene, and Siuan, for example, but do they ever call them al'Meara, al'Vere, or Sanche? No. No they do not. You might get something totally demeaning and horrifically patronizing like "the al'Vere girl," but at no point does she ever get called al'Vere.

 

In Gareth Bryne's POV chapters, he's referred to as Bryne. Same with Pedron Niall, Asunawa (what is that guy's first name? I don't know), Bayle Domon. Obviously Asha'man as well (until we meet Androl, who was Sanderson's creation so he doesn't count). I'm going to keep a list now. I'm only at Lord of Chaos in this reread. I have a lot of books to go. But this was the pattern way before the Asha'man.

 

All Aes Sedai, from antagonists like Elaida and Galina to friends like Moiraine and Verin, are referred to by their first names. Dodgy Darkfriend female? Seanchean sul'dam? Still first name. Regardless of how familiar they are to readers/other characters, whether or not they are 'bad guys,' or the authority they hold.

 

The thing with unconscious bias is that you have no idea that you're doing it. I did it with my own work, but I picked up on it. I am also female, and it was 2022. Would a male writer in 1990s and early 2000s have even had that on his radar?

I'm not questioning whether male and female characters are treated differently.  They clearly are.  It's a major theme of the series.  Men and women aren't the same and aren't interchangeable.  They should be treated differently, but also maybe not always.  

 

But it's a gross oversimplification to assume that any differences just reflect an unconscious determination to screw women over (either in the WoT universe or in the real world).  In many cases, it represents a willingness to treat male characters worse than female characters would be treated in similar circumstances.  The difference between given name and surname raises issues of respect, familiarity, emphasis on a role the individual is playing in a given structure, and many other questions.  It's not easy to make a generalization as to why certain naming choices are made.  

 

For instance, in your original post regarding the differences of how political figures are addressed, I think the article is jumping to conclusions when the answer is more complicated.  Hillary and Michelle, for instance, are referred to by their first names more often at least partially because there are famous people who were well known on the political scene first with the same last name (their husbands).  But this isn't unique to women.  We had a president who was frequently referred to as W. His brother is often just called Jeb for the same reasons.  

 

A second reason that first names are used in politics is for the purpose of establishing mock familiarity.  Kamala, Hillary, and Nancy are, of course, given this treatment.  You point out that Kevin doesn't really get this treatment, but that is mostly because he just became speaker and thus has a lower profile.  Donald, Sleepy Joe, Lying Ted, Little Marco, Chucky [Schumer], Mittens [Romney], and many other men have received a similar level of mockery.  It would be sexist to assume that we can't mock a politician in this way only because she is a woman.  

 

In literature, it's necessary to consider both the in universe circumstances of how people are addressed in their social structures as well as the practicalities of making a book understandable.  Aes Sedai, for instance, use the surname Sedai and use their original surnames less to symbolize the fact that they are leaving their roots and becoming something else.  Of course, it wouldn't work to call them all just "Sedai" either in the book or for characters in the universe.  

[Scarloc99]

I mean I have long felt fantasy writers should try and give some love to some of the generic names that are falling out of fashion. Barry, Gerry, Andy, Audrey, Stephanie maybe if Karen had been seen in more fantasy adaptations she wouldn’t have such a big chip on her shoulder ;). 
 

As a DM I often throw my players when the BBEG dragon is called Frank, or Heidi. 

[Samt]

1 hour ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I mean I have long felt fantasy writers should try and give some love to some of the generic names that are falling out of fashion. Barry, Gerry, Andy, Audrey, Stephanie maybe if Karen had been seen in more fantasy adaptations she wouldn’t have such a big chip on her shoulder ;). 
 

As a DM I often throw my players when the BBEG dragon is called Frank, or Heidi. 

I find it interesting when fantasy writers create fantasy-sounding names like Matrim, Eddard, Samwise, or Samwell, but then use nicknames like Matt, Ned, and Sam.  So the characters kind of have both a normal name and a fantasy sounding name.  

 

We should encourage the use of nicknames for other characters.  So Androl can be Andy, Rand is Randy.  What others?

Edited January 25, 2023 by Samt

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

Hi WOT fandom!  I’m new to this community and this is my first post. I’ve read through the series once, currently on LOC in my reread. Bear with me as I’m not experienced with forums and social media in general…please be kind and gentle…this may be the wrong thread and a bit off topic but regarding names, do the aiel have surnames? 

[DojoToad]

2 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Hi WOT fandom!  I’m new to this community and this is my first post. I’ve read through the series once, currently on LOC in my reread. Bear with me as I’m not experienced with forums and social media in general…please be kind and gentle…this may be the wrong thread and a bit off topic but regarding names, do the aiel have surnames? 

No.  And welcome.

Edited January 26, 2023 by DojoToad

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

Thank you 😊