Lanfear’s actions makes no sense

[christianrapper]

I don’t get why Lanfear felt the need to fake her death. That was needless and also redundant if you think about it. Everyone on the side of light except Perin and Rand already thought that she was dead. People already thought that the saw her die in the real world. Neither Rand or Perin were going to chase after her. Her actions made absolutely no sense. 

[Scarloc99]

If something needs to be explained 10 years after the fact, especially in a series that has been picked apart as much as WOT has by the fan base, with no one coming up with that theory then I think there comes a point where BS should have just accepted he had written it badly and left it be. Especially as there will be no follow up story. 
 

There is also another part of me that wonders, if Lanfer surviving was never BS intention, then Matt read the books in Beta and came up with the Theory and BS thought, that’s cool yeah ok. 10 years later no one has seen it so he brings it up then to try and stay relevant. 
 

These 2 recent “reveals” ( Nakomi and Lanfer) just both seem like reaching. To try and offer something new, when, after 10 years and a companion, there was ample opportunity to explain them before now. This is why in my head canon it just isn’t true. It makes no sense either story wise but also in terms of the book production. Unless, like I say, an announcement is about to be made of a follow up series (hopefully never authored by BS). 

[DojoToad]

2 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

If something needs to be explained 10 years after the fact, especially in a series that has been picked apart as much as WOT has by the fan base, with no one coming up with that theory then I think there comes a point where BS should have just accepted he had written it badly and left it be. Especially as there will be no follow up story. 
 

There is also another part of me that wonders, if Lanfer surviving was never BS intention, then Matt read the books in Beta and came up with the Theory and BS thought, that’s cool yeah ok. 10 years later no one has seen it so he brings it up then to try and stay relevant. 
 

These 2 recent “reveals” ( Nakomi and Lanfer) just both seem like reaching. To try and offer something new, when, after 10 years and a companion, there was ample opportunity to explain them before now. This is why in my head canon it just isn’t true. It makes no sense either story wise but also in terms of the book production. Unless, like I say, an announcement is about to be made of a follow up series (hopefully never authored by BS). 

Absolutely.  My biggest complaint about the books had always been the appearance of the Sharan army out of 'nowhere' during the last battle.  Never felt that was set up well.

 

Nakomi was always odd, but I always figured it was one of those mysterious loose ends that would remain loose - and was fine with that.  But then someone felt the need to explain - and the explanation was unsatisfying.

 

And the Lanfear thing was even worse.  Two unforced errors.

 

Again, forever grateful to Brandon for finishing WoT and thought he did an excellent job.  But stay in your own Cosmere now.  Leave the WoT alone.  Please, no more surprise reveals...

[Stedding Tofu]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

Absolutely.  My biggest complaint about the books had always been the appearance of the Sharan army out of 'nowhere' during the last battle.  Never felt that was set up well.

 

Is this confirmed as a BS insert rather than RJ's plan?  My initial reaction to the Sharan army appearing was "what?" but I grew to like it: like the Aiel red veils or the spirit wolves we've had certain things mentioned throughout the series without thinking of the implications. 

 

So we're told again and again that any Aiel man who can channel goes to the Blight and attempts to kill The Dark One but we just assume they all die (or at least I did).  We never consider that they might be captured and turned even though we're told from early on that the connection to The Dark One gives protection against going mad, that Channelers can be turned involuntarily and we have the example of Luc / Isam to show people being captured in The Blight and serving The Shadow (or Padan Fain for that matter).  With the Asha'man and captive Aes Sedai being turned it's even more explicit.

 

We're told that Darkhounds are twisted wolves and that wolves have a connection to Tel'aran'rhiod and we see that very early on with Hopper; we see Birgitte, a hero of the horn in Tel'aran'rhiod when Nynaeve is fighting Moghedien; we see the wolves in Tel'aran'rhiod exhorting Young Bull to lead them in The Last Hunt but it's only when Olver blows the Horn a second time at Shayol Ghul and Perrin works out that they want him to do that he leads them against The Darkhounds of The Wild Hunt (or I didn't until it happened).

 

I look at the Sharans the same way: both Shara and Seanchan are name-dropped early with talk of Hawkwing's armies going to conquer them and we presume failing; we have a number of references to Shara and even an explanation of their system of government; we know Demandred has a power base but we don't know where; it's enough for us to think it's just a bit of world-building and that, unlike the Seanchan, they will play no part in the story until they are very definitely in it!

 

I quite like it though I acknowledge the initial reveal was out of the blue.  It's the surprises years after the story, not those in it, that I struggle with.

[DojoToad]

35 minutes ago, Stedding Tofu said:

 

Is this confirmed as a BS insert rather than RJ's plan?  My initial reaction to the Sharan army appearing was "what?" but I grew to like it: like the Aiel red veils or the spirit wolves we've had certain things mentioned throughout the series without thinking of the implications. 

 

So we're told again and again that any Aiel man who can channel goes to the Blight and attempts to kill The Dark One but we just assume they all die (or at least I did).  We never consider that they might be captured and turned even though we're told from early on that the connection to The Dark One gives protection against going mad, that Channelers can be turned involuntarily and we have the example of Luc / Isam to show people being captured in The Blight and serving The Shadow (or Padan Fain for that matter).  With the Asha'man and captive Aes Sedai being turned it's even more explicit.

 

We're told that Darkhounds are twisted wolves and that wolves have a connection to Tel'aran'rhiod and we see that very early on with Hopper; we see Birgitte, a hero of the horn in Tel'aran'rhiod when Nynaeve is fighting Moghedien; we see the wolves in Tel'aran'rhiod exhorting Young Bull to lead them in The Last Hunt but it's only when Olver blows the Horn a second time at Shayol Ghul and Perrin works out that they want him to do that he leads them against The Darkhounds of The Wild Hunt (or I didn't until it happened).

 

I look at the Sharans the same way: both Shara and Seanchan are name-dropped early with talk of Hawkwing's armies going to conquer them and we presume failing; we have a number of references to Shara and even an explanation of their system of government; we know Demandred has a power base but we don't know where; it's enough for us to think it's just a bit of world-building and that, unlike the Seanchan, they will play no part in the story until they are very definitely in it!

 

I quite like it though I acknowledge the initial reveal was out of the blue.  It's the surprises years after the story, not those in it, that I struggle with.

I put the Shara 'surprise' on both Jordan and Sanderson.  I assume that Jordan was going to bring the Sharan army in, but obviously can't know that for sure.  I think the White Tower Aes Sedai would have had plenty to keep them busy with Taim and his Dreadlords.  I'm fine with Shara coming in but think another hint or two would have been warranted.

 

I think the Red Veils were set up well enough.  I also assumed they died when they went to the blight, but when it was revealed what actually happened to many of them I was surprised but it didn't feel like a cheat.  I could accept it easily.

 

Shara was too out of the blue for me personally.  And Lanfear living was just WTF?

[Scarloc99]

2 hours ago, DojoToad said:

I put the Shara 'surprise' on both Jordan and Sanderson.  I assume that Jordan was going to bring the Sharan army in, but obviously can't know that for sure.  I think the White Tower Aes Sedai would have had plenty to keep them busy with Taim and his Dreadlords.  I'm fine with Shara coming in but think another hint or two would have been warranted.

 

I think the Red Veils were set up well enough.  I also assumed they died when they went to the blight, but when it was revealed what actually happened to many of them I was surprised but it didn't feel like a cheat.  I could accept it easily.

 

Shara was too out of the blue for me personally.  And Lanfear living was just WTF?

I mean the one thing for me with the red veils was always the question, why keep them a "Secret" all this time, surely they would have appeared now and again to harry the Aiel or others. I know the companions etc explain they where kept as a "secret weapon" but you imagine they would have been found. 

 

[DojoToad]

1 minute ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I mean the one thing for me with the red veils was always the question, why keep them a "Secret" all this time, surely they would have appeared now and again to harry the Aiel or others. I know the companions etc explain they where kept as a "secret weapon" but you imagine they would have been found. 

 

Red Veils worked for me but Shara didn't.  There was probably as many mentions for each so I'm not sure why I could accept one but the other seemed like a cheat.  My brain is probably short circuiting...

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

Red Veils worked for me but Shara didn't.  There was probably as many mentions for each so I'm not sure why I could accept one but the other seemed like a cheat.  My brain is probably short circuiting...

Oh I agree I kind of got a small elite dark one unit that has remained hidden and anyone that might have come across them has died vs an entire nation that you really are given no foreshadowing about that turns up to surprise the forces of light. There is I suppose an argument that in a story being told entirely from POV you never actually get the POV of anyone who would know about Shara and the threat. So it is as much a surprise for all the characters as it is for the reader. But still it just felt a bit cheap. 

[Samt]

Neither the red veils nor the Sharans really seemed like much of a stretch to me.  Yeah, there wasn't much build up for the Sharans, but we do know that Demandred has an army somewhere.  And there was the whole thing with Graendel enslaving their leaders.  Not claiming to have seen any of that coming the first time, but it didn't feel like it didn't make sense. 

 

Lanfear being alive, on the other hand, is a bridge too far. I admit the idea that Matt came up with it and BS just ran with it had crossed my mind.  We also know that the companion authors, who are part of this inner team that BS claims agreed to the Lanfear survives storyline, did not leave much wiggle room on this subject in the companion.  Seems they could have at least come up with an Aes Sedai answer if they wanted to leave it open.  

 

As has been said, it kind of works as a sequel setup if that is desired.  But all signs indicate that no sequel is coming.  And it's not like we would need forsaken to be alive for a sequel to happen.  Lots of villains are still around and the world certainly appears big enough for other villains to emerge from the wings.  

[Scarloc99]

22 minutes ago, Samt said:

Neither the red veils nor the Sharans really seemed like much of a stretch to me.  Yeah, there wasn't much build up for the Sharans, but we do know that Demandred has an army somewhere.  And there was the whole thing with Graendel enslaving their leaders.  Not claiming to have seen any of that coming the first time, but it didn't feel like it didn't make sense. 

 

Lanfear being alive, on the other hand, is a bridge too far. I admit the idea that Matt came up with it and BS just ran with it had crossed my mind.  We also know that the companion authors, who are part of this inner team that BS claims agreed to the Lanfear survives storyline, did not leave much wiggle room on this subject in the companion.  Seems they could have at least come up with an Aes Sedai answer if they wanted to leave it open.  

 

As has been said, it kind of works as a sequel setup if that is desired.  But all signs indicate that no sequel is coming.  And it's not like we would need forsaken to be alive for a sequel to happen.  Lots of villains are still around and the world certainly appears big enough for other villains to emerge from the wings.  

Unless there are plans for a sequel TV show and Amazon have said they need an enemy to survive the last battle……..

 

But I agree on a follow up read through there are hints at both the red veils and the sharan army, enough that on that second read through you can spot them and go ahhh knowingly. I just felt for the Sharon’s it was still a little too weak. 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Sir_Charrid

[DojoToad]

22 minutes ago, Samt said:

Neither the red veils nor the Sharans really seemed like much of a stretch to me.  Yeah, there wasn't much build up for the Sharans, but we do know that Demandred has an army somewhere.  And there was the whole thing with Graendel enslaving their leaders.  Not claiming to have seen any of that coming the first time, but it didn't feel like it didn't make sense. 

 

Lanfear being alive, on the other hand, is a bridge too far. I admit the idea that Matt came up with it and BS just ran with it had crossed my mind.  We also know that the companion authors, who are part of this inner team that BS claims agreed to the Lanfear survives storyline, did not leave much wiggle room on this subject in the companion.  Seems they could have at least come up with an Aes Sedai answer if they wanted to leave it open.  

 

As has been said, it kind of works as a sequel setup if that is desired.  But all signs indicate that no sequel is coming.  And it's not like we would need forsaken to be alive for a sequel to happen.  Lots of villains are still around and the world certainly appears big enough for other villains to emerge from the wings.  

True, there still is the Seanchan to deal/live with.  That would be the sequel I want.  Civil war at home while trying to assimilate Hawkwing's old empire.  Books and books and books...  Won't happen, but a guy can dream.

[DojoToad]

13 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Unless there are plans for a sequel TV show and Amazon have said they need an enemy to survive the last battle……..

 

But I agree on a follow up read through there are hints at both the red veils and the sharan army, enough that on that second read through you can spot them and go ahhh knowingly. 

I still missed the hints on the Sharan army on my second complete read through.  Maybe I can change my mind on the third.

[Samt]

38 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

I still missed the hints on the Sharan army on my second complete read through.  Maybe I can change my mind on the third.

I'm not suggesting that it is an incredible build up or that a person could be reasonably expected to see it coming.  I am just contrasting it to the Lanfear reveal.  

 

We know that:

--Shara exists.

--Graendel has captured the leaders of the Sharan civilization and left it in disarray.  This part is hard to understand the first time through and I think it's fair that most readers won't attach much meaning to it.

--Demandred is out there and he has gathered an army.  

 

That's really all of the 'hints' that I have seen.  The thing is, this was always a known unknown.  Sort of like who killed Asmodean.  There might not have been enough information to really know, but there was enough information to understand that it was a mystery that the author had not revealed yet (at a minimum, it was clear that Demandred was going to show up with an army).  

 

Contrast that to the Lanfear survives thing.  It was solidly an unknown unknown.  My first reaction to this was that it would be interesting to see what I had missed and how the clues had been laid.  But the best clue anyone has come up with is that it's weird for Lanfear to use a countdown so that she can do a coordinated attack with Perrin.  And frankly, I find that to be a stretch.  

[Stedding Tofu]

19 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I mean the one thing for me with the red veils was always the question, why keep them a "Secret" all this time, surely they would have appeared now and again to harry the Aiel or others. I know the companions etc explain they where kept as a "secret weapon" but you imagine they would have been found.

 

This is a very good point.  We can suppose the Aiel tradition is at least several thousand years old so either The Dark One / Ishamael only hit on this idea recently or generations of male channelers have been cooling their heals in The Blight.  The Trolloc Wars would have been the perfect time to unleash an army of red veils.  We're told very early in the series that Aiel men who can channel head to The Blight to try and kill The Dark One so it seems more likely that RJ had the surprise up his sleeve all along than hitting on the idea much later.  The best explanation is that it's a one-time reveal: once the Aiel realise what happens they will no longer send their men so the red veils have to be reserved for Tarmon Gai'don.

 

I honestly feel the same about Shara.  It is deliberately kept very vague with only mysterious hints so that as we get to see the distant and unfamiliar peoples offpage of Randland - the Aiel, Seafolk and Seanchan - we view the Sharans as pure worldbuilding rather than the next people to erupt into the story - until of course they do...

[Asthereal]

On 1/22/2023 at 8:16 PM, christianrapper said:

I don’t get why Lanfear felt the need to fake her death. That was needless and also redundant if you think about it. Everyone on the side of light except Perin and Rand already thought that she was dead. People already thought that the saw her die in the real world. Neither Rand or Perin were going to chase after her. Her actions made absolutely no sense. 

 

Well, Forsaken tend to come back from the dead. It's kind of what they do. So Lanfear dying right when the Dark One and his forces are defeated would mean she'd be gone for good. Some people thought she died at the docks in Cairhien, but that's a long time ago. Also, quite a few people knew she returned, or would have at least suspected so. Considering Lanfear tends to think about herself first and foremost, staging her death like this in order to allow herself free reign in the coming decades seems fitting to me.

 

Also, while Rand or Perrin would probably not be intersted in hunting her, there's still the Aes Sedai, who absolutely know she did not just die for good at the docks. They'd surely want to know what happened to her, and barring a satisfactory story they'd hunt her for sure.

 

As to the Red Veils and Demandred+Shara: as far as I can tell, these were reveals that Jordan had planned. Sanderson just had to figure out how to weave them into the narrative. At first he wanted to foreshadow the Sharans, but it didn't work and the team decided to make it a shock reveal. You can't have too many of those, so the Red veils reveal comes early on, allowing us time to chew on the ramifications.

Lanfear had an ongoing arc from books 9-11, that as far as I can tell from the interviews and panels wasn't much planned for in Jordan's notes. Sanderson got to finish her arc, and this is what he chose to do.

[Scarloc99]

3 hours ago, Stedding Tofu said:

 

This is a very good point.  We can suppose the Aiel tradition is at least several thousand years old so either The Dark One / Ishamael only hit on this idea recently or generations of male channelers have been cooling their heals in The Blight.  The Trolloc Wars would have been the perfect time to unleash an army of red veils.  We're told very early in the series that Aiel men who can channel head to The Blight to try and kill The Dark One so it seems more likely that RJ had the surprise up his sleeve all along than hitting on the idea much later.  The best explanation is that it's a one-time reveal: once the Aiel realise what happens they will no longer send their men so the red veils have to be reserved for Tarmon Gai'don.

 

I honestly feel the same about Shara.  It is deliberately kept very vague with only mysterious hints so that as we get to see the distant and unfamiliar peoples offpage of Randland - the Aiel, Seafolk and Seanchan - we view the Sharans as pure worldbuilding rather than the next people to erupt into the story - until of course they do...

Except with enough red veils you can breed more anyway. In fact a community of 100% channeler men would probably reach a point where more male channelers where born then arrived. 

[Samt]

2 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Except with enough red veils you can breed more anyway. In fact a community of 100% channeler men would probably reach a point where more male channelers where born then arrived. 

I don't think much is revealed on the specific genetic mechanisms whereby channeling ability is inherited.  Certainly, there is a genetic component.  But we know that many of the red veils could not channel.  Since all of the men who came there could channel to begin with (I don't think much is said in terms of which women are used, but it is implied that the red veils have been reproducing in the blight for a while), we have to assume that channeling ability does not completely dominate genetically.  

[DojoToad]

5 minutes ago, Samt said:

I don't think much is revealed on the specific genetic mechanisms whereby channeling ability is inherited.  Certainly, there is a genetic component.  But we know that many of the red veils could not channel.  Since all of the men who came there could channel to begin with (I don't think much is said in terms of which women are used, but it is implied that the red veils have been reproducing in the blight for a while), we have to assume that channeling ability does not completely dominate genetically.  

Right.  If the ability to channel were dominant there would be a lot more channelers.

[Sabio]

On 1/24/2023 at 4:48 AM, Stedding Tofu said:

 

This is a very good point.  We can suppose the Aiel tradition is at least several thousand years old so either The Dark One / Ishamael only hit on this idea recently or generations of male channelers have been cooling their heals in The Blight.  The Trolloc Wars would have been the perfect time to unleash an army of red veils.  We're told very early in the series that Aiel men who can channel head to The Blight to try and kill The Dark One so it seems more likely that RJ had the surprise up his sleeve all along than hitting on the idea much later.  The best explanation is that it's a one-time reveal: once the Aiel realise what happens they will no longer send their men so the red veils have to be reserved for Tarmon Gai'don.

 

I honestly feel the same about Shara.  It is deliberately kept very vague with only mysterious hints so that as we get to see the distant and unfamiliar peoples offpage of Randland - the Aiel, Seafolk and Seanchan - we view the Sharans as pure worldbuilding rather than the next people to erupt into the story - until of course they do...

That's how I look at it. Once the red viels are known then the Aiel would stop going to the blight. In the Origins book RJ had planned for there to be seven Eyes of the World, each holding a seal.  The red viels (sight blinders) original job was to find each Eye and destroy the seals.  RJ changed it to one Eye and the red viels did try in vain to find and "blind" the one Eye of the World.  But in his notes RJ did write they are being held back as a surprise for the Last Battle.

Edited March 28, 2023 by Sabio

[christianrapper]

On 1/24/2023 at 7:44 AM, Asthereal said:

 

Well, Forsaken tend to come back from the dead. It's kind of what they do. So Lanfear dying right when the Dark One and his forces are defeated would mean she'd be gone for good. Some people thought she died at the docks in Cairhien, but that's a long time ago. Also, quite a few people knew she returned, or would have at least suspected so. Considering Lanfear tends to think about herself first and foremost, staging her death like this in order to allow herself free reign in the coming decades seems fitting to me.

 

Also, while Rand or Perrin would probably not be intersted in hunting her, there's still the Aes Sedai, who absolutely know she did not just die for good at the docks. They'd surely want to know what happened to her, and barring a satisfactory story they'd hunt her for sure.

 

As to the Red Veils and Demandred+Shara: as far as I can tell, these were reveals that Jordan had planned. Sanderson just had to figure out how to weave them into the narrative. At first he wanted to foreshadow the Sharans, but it didn't work and the team decided to make it a shock reveal. You can't have too many of those, so the Red veils reveal comes early on, allowing us time to chew on the ramifications.

Lanfear had an ongoing arc from books 9-11, that as far as I can tell from the interviews and panels wasn't much planned for in Jordan's notes. Sanderson got to finish her arc, and this is what he chose to do.

For Aes sedai to hunt her they would have to know that she is alive. They already think that she is dead. Very few Aes Sedai even knew that the forsaken even returned from the dead. 

[Asthereal]

On 3/28/2023 at 2:25 AM, christianrapper said:

For Aes sedai to hunt her they would have to know that she is alive. They already think that she is dead. Very few Aes Sedai even knew that the forsaken even returned from the dead. 

 

Their new Amyrlin knows Forsaken are capable of returning. And I'm pretty sure Rand would have informed her of this one particular Forsaken. While he doesn't like Cadsuane at all, he does trust her to support the Light throughout the story.

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

On 3/27/2023 at 5:25 PM, christianrapper said:

For Aes sedai to hunt her they would have to know that she is alive. They already think that she is dead. Very few Aes Sedai even knew that the forsaken even returned from the dead. 

I wonder how aes sedai missed the major incentive of the forsaken which was immortality. You’d think they would be more prepared/aware of the likelihood that they would not be “dead”.

[Sabio]

There is a difference between never growing old and able to be brought back from death.  Remember even Moiraine told Rand death is permanent.  The little they know of the Forsaken has most of them going over for power not immortality.  Few people know of the DO's ability to stuff a soul back into a body.  To almost everyone of the time, once you're dead that's it.

[DojoToad]

5 hours ago, Sabio said:

There is a difference between never growing old and able to be brought back from death.  Remember even Moiraine told Rand death is permanent.  The little they know of the Forsaken has most of them going over for power not immortality.  Few people know of the DO's ability to stuff a soul back into a body.  To almost everyone of the time, once you're dead that's it.

Dark One's ability aside.  I thought renewal and rebirth were a theme of the whole series...?

[Sabio]

Every expects the pattern will spin people out again and again.  But no one expects someone to die and then be walking around again a month later.