Shall we talk about that Lanfear thing? :) -heavy spoilers!!

[Blackbyrd]

On 1/11/2023 at 6:48 AM, Sir_Charrid said:

SO I have been thinking about this and Perrins journey and I maintain in isolation with no further book to come it does take away from Perrins story, it makes him a tool, a putz for Lanfer. Both Mat and Rand have outsmarted and beaten Forsaken. Mat on the battle field and Rand, well, he has killed several. Some more then once. This was Perrins moment, putting him on a level alongside Mat and Rand of being able to take on and beat a forsaken, and this takes it away, it again relegates Perrin to the weaker of the 3. I would have no issue with that if a follow up story saw Perrin discover what she did and beat her, but we will never get that so, my final view of perrin was that he was the only one not equal to a forsaken of the 3 boys

Weak critique 

 

2 hours ago, Samt said:

After thinking more about it, it seems that the reason very few people suspected Lanfear's survival is that her death makes sense.  I don't think that it was well established that Lanfear had reached the conclusion that the dark one's victory would be bad for her no matter what.  Certainly she wanted to undermine the other forsaken in order to get back on top and that explains why she was willing to help the forces of light at various points.  But that is very different from having abandoned all plans for ever serving the shadow.  

If Lanfear had completely deceived Perrin and was in control of the situation, it stands to reason that she could have killed him.  Had she killed Perrin, she could have also easily killed Moiraine and Nyneave who couldn't control their channelling at the time.  Then, it would have been easy to kill Rand and even Morridin if she wanted.  She could have then freed the dark one and he would have been victorious.  Lanfear's decision to become one of the forsaken initially is predicated on the assumption that she believes that the dark on would reward her when he wins.  If she had believed that he would reward her when he wins, surely she believes that the dark one would reward her for essentially single-handedly defeating the Dragon and his close allies in the final battle while also breaking open the dark one's prison.  The claim that she didn't think that the dark one's victory would ever be to her advantage seems weak and unsupported.  

In general, it always seems more realistic when even the master plotters and schemers are working through a network of contingencies and backup plans, seizing opportunities and overcoming setbacks, rather than executing a single, complex and interwoven plan.  If a character is able to plan ahead and control exactly what is going to happen in a complex situation, he or she is so much more powerful than everyone else involved that the story seems hollow.  Lanfear is obviously powerful, but she is by no means a peerless power at the time of the last battle.  For this reason, I assume that Lanfear was playing both sides and waiting for an opportunity to get back in the driver's seat.  

As such, if Lanfear survived, I would find it more plausible that it was more a quickly executed backup plan.  For instance, on finding Rand, Nynaeve, Moiraine, and Moridin in a vulnerable situation, she sees her opportunity to prove her worth to the dark one and again become favored over the other forsaken.  The only obstacle is Perrin, who is clearly intent on stopping her.  She decides to use compulsion to wrap him in her plan and complete the victory.  However, Perrin is unexpectedly able to resist.  She realizes that he is about to kill her.  Unwilling to risk an uncertain fight against Perrin, she chooses to deceive him into thinking that he has succeeded and thus makes her escape.

As others have said, one of the biggest complaints about Lanfear's survival is that it seems to really undermine Perrin's arc and general growth.  It makes it so he was really just a pawn the whole time.  One of the things about him overcoming the compulsion is that he uses his sense of self and where his home is.  If that was just an illusion and he really didn't overcome the compulsion, that feels pretty dirty.  I like the above explanation.  Lanfear wasn't just manipulating Perrin.  If he hadn't been there, she would have killed the other heroes at Shayol Gul.  Perrin really did need to be there to watch Rand's back (and not just because of Slayer). But being a master of deception, Lanfear is still able to adapt and escape.  

This really well thought out but it assumes that Lanfear is easy meat- and yes Sanderson does not hold down the fort so to speak in regards to the foreshadowing, and I reread the entire series with an eye on all of this a year or so ago. Really- getting her neck snapped was pretty spot on. I mean- you really wanna get hunted down by Cadsuane?

 

So yeah- Lanfear alive I can see it but it's not an obvious find unless you do the 1.2.3 bullshit- 

[Samt]

1 hour ago, Blackbyrd said:

 

This really well thought out but it assumes that Lanfear is easy meat- and yes Sanderson does not hold down the fort so to speak in regards to the foreshadowing, and I reread the entire series with an eye on all of this a year or so ago. Really- getting her neck snapped was pretty spot on. I mean- you really wanna get hunted down by Cadsuane?

 

So yeah- Lanfear alive I can see it but it's not an obvious find unless you do the 1.2.3 bullshit- 

Hubris aside, one of the elements of the forsaken that is explored quite a bit is the fact that at the end of the day they are all just humans living in mortal bodies (with all of the phyiscal, emotional, and mental limitations that this implies).  This comes up when Cadsuane is interrogating Semirhage and is fairly apparent in the Lan/Demandred confrontation.  It is also instrumental to the way that Nynaeve bests Moghedien the first time. Moreover, the point is made that the forsaken have spent so much time doing everything with the one power that they have become complacent with their ability to do things the old-fashioned way.  The mortal vulnerability of Aes Sedai to surprise is a main part of the justification for having warders.  (It's even part of Nynaeve's character that she specifically resists relying too heavily on the one power and is still interested in the use of herbs for healing, for example.  This is critical to her ability to save Alanna at Shayol Gul at least for some time in order to protect Rand even though she can't control her channelling since she is in a circle that Rand is controlling.  )

For that reason, I didn't think it all weird that Perrin bests Lanfear by snapping her neck.  He surprises her and kills her before she can react.  I think that assuming Lanfear would somehow be beyond mortal weakness is adding something that is clearly contradicted many times in the series.  Is she easy meat?  No.  But is she vulnerable to being surprised and overwhelmed the same way everyone else is?  Absolutely. 

This isn't really, of course, an argument for Lanfear not being alive.  My main point is that taking the events in AMoL at face value is quite reasonable and there really is very little evidence to the contrary.  

Edited January 13, 2023 by Samt

[Stedding Tofu]

22 hours ago, Samt said:

For that reason, I didn't think it all weird that Perrin bests Lanfear by snapping her neck.  He surprises her and kills her before she can react.  I think that assuming Lanfear would somehow be beyond mortal weakness is adding something that is clearly contradicted many times in the series.  Is she easy meat?  No.  But is she vulnerable to being surprised and overwhelmed the same way everyone else is?  Absolutely. 

 

There's also the point that Perrin's powers at the end are somewhat unclear.  Like Slayer he has the ability to step into and out of tel'aran'rhiod at will and he uses this to defeat Slayer and to lead the spirit wolves out of TAR to defeat The Last Hunt.  Perrin loses something of his humanity in doing this but he also gains something so all his practicing at defeating or ignoring weaves in TAR - "just a weave" - didn't make it surprising to me that he was able to overcome Lanfear's Compulsion and break free.  And there's precedent here anyway: although Moghedien used Compulsion on both Nynaeve and Elayne and then erased their memories of her in Tanchico in TFoH, Nynaeve, by being strong-willed was able to break free of that; so too was Morgase able to intermittently break free of Rahvin's Compulsion.

 

Perrin being able to break free is established much better for me than Lanfear faking the whole thing.

[Sabio]

Her setting it all up would explain why she used such a small amount of compulsion on Perrin instead of just going full out Grendal pet on him.  If all you need him for is to help you kill someone, then why just use a small amount?  Just make him a blathering idiot to do the job, a job which she really didn't need any help with anyway.  

Edited January 15, 2023 by Sabio

[Samt]

10 hours ago, Sabio said:

Her setting it all up would explain why she used such a small amount of compulsion on Perrin instead of just going full out and going full out Grendal pet on him.  If all you need him for is to help you kill someone, then why just use a small amount?  Just make him a blathering idiot to do the job, a job which she really didn't need any help with anyway.  

If you make the assumption that Lanfear lives and planned it ahead of time, you can of course come up with a chain of events and evidence for why it must be so.  But expecting the reader to have a constantly doubting mindset where the assumption is that the words on the page are not taken at face value quickly leads to a proliferation of weird fan theories.  That might be fun, but it also makes the story seem incoherent.  

Why might Lanfear use such a small amount of compulsion?  Perhaps she thought it gross to use so much compulsion and wanted to be more elegant.  Perhaps she wasn't sure that there wouldn't be another challenge and assumed that any amount would be sufficient (ie. she wanted Perrin to be available to her as a resource later).  Maybe she did use an absolutely mind-destroying amount and the strength of Perrin's consciousness saved him (after all, we get this scene from Perrin's view.  We don't know how much compulsion Lanfear was trying to use).  There are many easy explanations that seem more apparent than assuming that it was a ruse.  

Brandon Sanderson started his explanation of Lanfear's survival by talking about his exploration of the motives and end goals of all the characters.  His conclusion was that Lanfear believed that a victory for the shadow would be disastrous for her in all cases.  I don't remember there being much evidence that Lanfear has come to this conclusion.  It's not ridiculous that Lanfear might believe this, but it's also entirely possible for her to believe that she could still manipulate events such that she would regain favor with the dark one.  If this is the path that her character is taken, I think that should have been made somewhat more explicit.  The Lanfear scenes don't give us much of a sense that there is something else deeper going on.  There is a straightforward explanation that is quite coherent.  Saying that straightforward explanation is the wrong one is going to feel like a retcon to many readers, regardless of what Brandon Sanderson says about it.  

 

The author can intend to tell one story.  But if almost everyone who reads it understands it in a different way, it's not so clear what story was actually told.  

[Sabio]

A writer thinking they have made things too obvious when in reality they didn't is common.  RJ always said who killed Asmo should be obvious to anyone who read the first 5 books.  But clearly it wasn't.  I'm not going to say BS went about this in the best way, but it makes sense to me.  Put yourself in Lanfear's place and how far you've fallen, Mogi and Lanfear at the time were the two lowest.  Lanfear is smart, even if she saves the DO is she going to trust the DO for mercy and forgiveness?  She was still helping his enemies at the end, giving Perrin some secrets, not stopping him from removing the dreamspike etc..  If Dem won the army fight, would she be placed above him?  Would someone simply smash her mind shard and be done with her?  Can she guarantee no other Forsaken would survive? 

 

As readers I think we don't question enough or we question the wrong things.  RJ said he wasn't a fan of tying up every loose end or explaining every detail such as who sent the trollocs to attack the manor.  This is probably what Brandon tried, he thought he left enough clues but really left enough things for us to say this is a bit odd, but IMO it still would have been a big leap for most to say ohh Lanfear is alive.  But it also would have ruined alot had BS been really obvious about it.  He was hoping for people to be suspicious and maybe question some stuff but to be too open about it would have made it sort of blahh instead of ohhh could it be she lives?

Edited January 15, 2023 by Sabio

[Samt]

There are, of course, tons of unresolved loose ends ranging from prophecies and viewings that still have yet to be fulfilled, relatively significant characters that are sort of just dropped and never heard from again, and existing conflicts and challenges that are never addressed.  All of this works to the advantage of the series in the way that it creates a world that feels real.  It's not realistic to expect a complex and dynamic world to reach a moment where everything is resolved, even when there is a climactic clash between the forces of good and evil.  

 

However, Lanfear surviving is probably the most significant loose end to the major story arcs.  None of the other forsaken end up alive, mentally intact, and in control of their actions.  The capturing of Moghedien by the Seanchan even feels like a bit of an epilogue intended to make sure that none of the forsaken end up roaming free at the end of the series.  But I guess it wasn't that if Lanfear was free anyways.  

In addition to being a very significant loose end, it also is set apart by the fact that it doesn't even feel like a loose end.  It's one thing to leave a mystery under-explained or ambiguous.  Yes, it wasn't obvious who killed Asmodean.  I assume that Robert Jordan wasn't entirely serious when it claimed it was clear who had killed Asmodean from the first 5 books.  Either that or what it meant was that it was clear that one of the other forsaken killed Asmodean but that it didn't so much matter which one.  But all the same, it wasn't a misdirect built into the book.  It was just something that was never stated or explained.  What was the Tinkers' song? What happened to Dobraine? What was going on with the Ogier being able to leave to somewhere else? What was the point of the Seafolk and the viewings regarding their new leader? What really are the Aelfinn and Eelfinn? How could Rand make things grow?  There are lots of questions that aren't really explored.  That's a different thing from explaining it pretty clearly (to the extent that very few people were really doubting the explanation) and then saying that explanation was incorrect.  

 

I'd be interested to see an exploration of hints that Lanfear would live as well as confounding details that don't really make sense assuming she lived (should either of these things exist).  

[Sabio]

We do know from the companion that the Tinker Song doesn't exist.  

 

I think another issue with this is that in the Companion it clearly states Cyndane was killed by Perrin.  You would think it would put a little doubt about it.  I do think her living explains why she suddenly decided to help Perrin and do things like remove the dreamspike,  Why help him free the Asha'man then act like she wants to save the DO?  But when the Companion says, "Perrin was able to resist and instead killed Cyndane".

Edited January 17, 2023 by Sabio

[JyP]

Hey, what if Lanfear was really able to separate herself in Cyndane / Lanfear ? This would do the trick very nicely in fact.

 

Cyndane remains the one being linked to the soulshard, desperate to gain the Dark One's approval

 

Lanfear is the part helping Perrin, but being somewhat unable to leave Tel'aran'rhiod ? A soulless horror determined to get her way (so a fitting adversary for Perrin in the future)

Edited January 16, 2023 by JyP

[Asthereal]

On 1/13/2023 at 11:52 AM, Stedding Tofu said:

Ok, I'm aware RJ planned only one last volume but thought BS said immediately that there was so much material that two were needed, with the publisher deciding to eke it out into three.  Either way, it seems a BS decision to leave Lanfear alive.

 

Were there any edits after the beta feedback?  Because if what is published is too obvious then my hat off to the reviewer.  If BS made it "less obvious" in response then I think he went too far.

 

As far as Brandon revealed in the livestream, he did not change anything based on feedback from Matt. Matt said it was too obvious, but Brandon said he had more experience with reveals and plot twists like this, and that he reckoned he should keep it as it was, as he felt most people would not pick up on this as easily as Matt. Matt knows the books so well he is likely to pick up on things a lot faster than others, and Brandon said he took this into account when checking his feedback from the beta-read.

 

 

On 1/13/2023 at 11:52 AM, Stedding Tofu said:

Does Lanfear's plan to rule through Perrin have legs given his well-known love for his wife?  Can she keep her identity hidden with a weave without people wondering who she is and exposing her?  Maybe not but I took it as her plan (similar to Moghedien's) but it got nipped in the bud abruptly as BS tied up a loose end - as abruptly as he tied up Masema or Padan Fain / mashadar.

 

Lanfear didn't plan to rule through Perrin, rather she planned to stage her death though him, while making sure the Light had the best chance to prevail. This was her only chance to come out somewhat okay. She's a lot weaker than she was before due to her time with the Finn, but she's still quite strong in the one power, and in the new world post-Last Battle, with everybody thinking she's dead, she should be able to get away and establish something new for herself.

Note that she died when Moridin rescued her from the Finn, which is why she came out of that with a new look and name (Cyndane). As far as I can tell, she never revealed this new look to people from the Light, as she looked like her old self in the dreamworld. And indeed she is very much capable of disguising herself with weaves anyway, so she should be able to do basically whatever she wants now. Except going to the Seanchan, as I'm guessing she's not too fond of risking a collar around her neck.

[Asthereal]

On 1/14/2023 at 7:31 PM, Stedding Tofu said:

Perrin being able to break free is established much better for me than Lanfear faking the whole thing.

 

I fully understand this point, but we have to take into account that we are constantly in Perrin's viewpoint when we see these events play out. What Perrin doesn't know, we cannot learn in those chapters, except by certain minute details and stuff that feels "off". For me, Lanfear counting to three was far enough "off" that Brandon's reveal immediately convinced me that I had been misinterpreting the scene, and that Lanfear indeed had something completely different planned than what we were seeing through Perrin's eyes.

[Samt]

4 hours ago, Asthereal said:

 

I fully understand this point, but we have to take into account that we are constantly in Perrin's viewpoint when we see these events play out. What Perrin doesn't know, we cannot learn in those chapters, except by certain minute details and stuff that feels "off". For me, Lanfear counting to three was far enough "off" that Brandon's reveal immediately convinced me that I had been misinterpreting the scene, and that Lanfear indeed had something completely different planned than what we were seeing through Perrin's eyes.

Why do you feel that the counting is so "off?"  Compulsion isn't a remote control, and it's reasonable that they would need to attack together so that neither Moraine nor Nynaeve has a chance to resist.  The only reason that Cyndane would have for not waiting would be that she believed that Perrin might be able to to resist the compulsion.

I mostly just see this through the Occam's razor of fantasy reading.  You can always have weird fan theories.  We, of course, have Cyndane's neck broken and her dead lifeless body described to us.  It's the final book and we expect the villains to be dealt with.  But I suppose anything is possible.  

It's also possible that actually Rand died and Morridin survived and was just pretending to be Rand in order to get away.  Morridin rebound the dark one and left in order to commit suicide.  I mean maybe, maybe not.  I literally just made that theory up in the last 2 minutes and haven't put much thought into where the text might support or refute it.  But it's probably as well supported as the Lanfear survives theory if we are willing to accept that some things described on the page are actually characters just being deceived.

I just feel that the "Lanfear survives" reveal sets a precedent where the text is suspect.  It's kind of a fantasy joke that no one is really dead until you see his or her lifeless body.   But I guess that might still be jumping to conclusions.  

 

It's obvious the only reason this theory is being taken seriously at all is that Brandon Sanderson said it was true.  Of course, that is a fairly good reason.  But I'm just pointing out that if we leave Brandon Sanderson out of this beyond what he has written in the novels, this is pretty far into whacky fan theory territory.  

[Samt]

I went ahead and re-read the chapter 49 to see what stuck out to me if I assume that Lanfear lives.  The first thing is that as Perrin arrives at the tunnel to the pit of doom, Lanfear is described as "lounging inside."  This implies that she has been waiting at least for a short time for Perrin to arrive.  That does seem to support the Lanfear lives theory.  Why would she wait if she intended to kill everyone and help the DO?  On the other hand, she is waiting at the entrance no knowing what she will find, so it is also possible that she wants Perrin to be there to have options.  We also don't know but that she was waiting for only a few moments.  

On the othe hand, Lanfear states that, "[compulsion is] such an inferior tool.  I hate having to use it...If they had given me more time, I would have had you fairly." The implication is that she was planning to convince Perrin to help her willingly.  The only explanation that I can come up for this if she is just planning to escape is that she is saying this entirely for Perrin's benefit and it is part of the manipulation. 

 

She goes on to sort of negotiate with Perrin as to who kills which of the women since he supposedly hates Moiraine for taking him from his village.  But Nynaeve is from his village, so Lanfear won't make him kill her.  Again, this doesn't really make sense if Lanfear is just planning to escape other than once again just being more manipulation.  But the manipulation is getting really convoluted.  She really wants Perrin to resist, so why does she need to make it easier for him not to resist?  The only explanation I can come up with is that she needs to avoid making it easy for Perrin so that he doesn't suspect anything.  This also means that she perfectly calculates exactly how much manipulation and compulsion Perrin can resist and uses just slightly less.  

But Perrin isn't really super sophisticated.  This just seems like really convoluted overkill.  And it's not just overkill.  It's also increasing the complexity and risk of failure of her plan.  What if Perrin actually decides to kill Moiraine?  How could she be so sure?  

 

This ties into my original point about complexity as well as a point that was made earlier by another poster that Lanfear practically leaves Perrin to die in the fight against Slayer.  If her plan was to escape with Perrin as a witness to her faked death, why didn't she stick around to make sure he won?  If Slayer killed Perrin, all would be lost.  Making sure that he won would have done little to undermine the further steps of her plan while also removing a lot of risk.   This is especially true if we assume that Lanfear is so powerful she could have killed Slayer and made Perrin think that he did it on his own.  That's actually pretty reasonable if you assume that Lanfear is skilled enough in Tel to convince Perrin of her death.   

In short, Lanfear's whole plan ends up being fairly convoluted and consists of repeatedly threading the needle to make it work.  I really can't find this compelling evidence that Lanfear survived.  

Edited January 16, 2023 by Samt

[Mailman]

The problem i keep coming back to for this to work is Lanfear leaves Perrin to die or be removed from the fight when he is initially defeated by Slayer.

 

Slayer is no use as an alibi and she would have no way of knowing Perrin could possibly recover from the situation she left him in as at the time he could not step out of the dream on his own.

[Sabio]

She probably thought if she aids Perrn with Slayer then she risks making another enemy.  Just like she wouldn't openly aid Rand.  Perrin might become too suspicious if she starts saving his life.  I just assume if Perrin dies, she will have to go with plan B and do what she can so see team good wins and then vanish as best as she can.  If Perrin is dead and if she thinks Rand is dead, those are some of the few that know about her.  Seanchan would be perfect for her, a land in chaos, a disguise, some compulsion and she could start new over there. It would be less likely anyone would be looking for her in Seanchan.  She is past the age of testing so no one is going to just slap a collar on her unless she does something dumb.  Perrin alive and saying he killed her would be the best, but I would guess if he died her next plan is see the DO loses and vanish.

[Asthereal]

16 hours ago, Samt said:

Why do you feel that the counting is so "off?"  Compulsion isn't a remote control, and it's reasonable that they would need to attack together so that neither Moraine nor Nynaeve has a chance to resist.  The only reason that Cyndane would have for not waiting would be that she believed that Perrin might be able to to resist the compulsion.

I mostly just see this through the Occam's razor of fantasy reading.  You can always have weird fan theories.  We, of course, have Cyndane's neck broken and her dead lifeless body described to us.  It's the final book and we expect the villains to be dealt with.  But I suppose anything is possible.  

It's also possible that actually Rand died and Morridin survived and was just pretending to be Rand in order to get away.  Morridin rebound the dark one and left in order to commit suicide.  I mean maybe, maybe not.  I literally just made that theory up in the last 2 minutes and haven't put much thought into where the text might support or refute it.  But it's probably as well supported as the Lanfear survives theory if we are willing to accept that some things described on the page are actually characters just being deceived.

I just feel that the "Lanfear survives" reveal sets a precedent where the text is suspect.  It's kind of a fantasy joke that no one is really dead until you see his or her lifeless body.   But I guess that might still be jumping to conclusions.  

 

It's obvious the only reason this theory is being taken seriously at all is that Brandon Sanderson said it was true.  Of course, that is a fairly good reason.  But I'm just pointing out that if we leave Brandon Sanderson out of this beyond what he has written in the novels, this is pretty far into whacky fan theory territory.

 

No, it can't be Moridin, as the chapter is written from Rand's perspective. This is clearly stated, and it's clear that Rand is the one who survived, otherwise the chapter can't be from his perspective. Unless you argue that the narrator here is unreliable, but you'll need strong arguments, and I see none in the text.

 

Why Lanfear's counting feels "off" for me I already explained. She just stated there isn't much time. Perrin is under compulsion and should do what she asks. There is no reason to delay. The counting allows for things to go wrong and should not be done. It makes Lanfear look like an idiot. The only sensible explanation that allows for Lanfear to remain one of the smartest characters, is that she planned this all and wants Perrin to break through the compulsion, and that the count to three gives him time to do so. Just like Sanderson revealed.

 

Lastly, if you choose leave Sanderson out of it, you support the idea of Death of the Author. That's cool and definitely something you can choose to do, but you can't debate this reveal without acknowlegding this. I can't stress enough how important this point is. If you support the idea of Death of the Author, you can't discuss this reveal with people who don't, as the reveal isn't canon for you, and never will be, but you'll never be able to convince them of why, as they don't see the story the way you do.

Though I have to say that DotA, as a principal philosophical discussion, is an interesting one to have. We'd need a different thread though, probably also in a different section of the forum.

[Asthereal]

On 1/17/2023 at 2:11 AM, Mailman said:

The problem i keep coming back to for this to work is Lanfear leaves Perrin to die or be removed from the fight when he is initially defeated by Slayer.

 

Slayer is no use as an alibi and she would have no way of knowing Perrin could possibly recover from the situation she left him in as at the time he could not step out of the dream on his own.

 

I would like to point out that this idea assumes Lanfear has only one plan. If Perrin dies, Slayer will live, and she will miss out on plan A, but there will still be the plan of saving the Dark One and hoping against better judgment that Shai'tan will accept her explanation that this was the best way to mave him win, as Moridin's plan was destined to fail.

 

Even Lanfear can't control everything, but she can make the most of what really happens. Plan A is to have the Light win and stage her death. Plan B is to be the one who saves the Dark One and causes the Shadow to win. Or potentially plan B was to have the Light win and not stage her own death, risking a terrible fate, and perhaps causing the Shadow to win was plan C. Those two are very much up for debate still.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Asthereal

[Stedding Tofu]

On 1/15/2023 at 3:54 PM, Sabio said:

As readers I think we don't question enough or we question the wrong things.  RJ said he wasn't a fan of tying up every loose end or explaining every detail

 

Misdirection and loose ends / unresolved details are different things though.  Moghedien is a loose end until she's not.  Unresolved details are the truce with the Seanchan and the status of the Asha'man though we can make reasonable (and very different) assumptions about these.  Lanfear is as dead as Padan Fain or Demandred and not a loose end at all until ten yeas later we're told she is alive.

 

That's my main dislike of this.  I'm absolutely delighted by something being hidden in the text skilfully and then later in the series we realise we overlooked it and we can appreciate both the author's skill and forward planning and the consequences of the unexpected / unseen development.  But if it's something  that has to be explained ten years after the story's done and (some) readers find both the reveal and the set-up for it to be thin then I'm not sold on it.  This is subjective and people will differ in how they see it.

 

It also makes the scene where Moghedien is collared part of the misdirection as we are lulled into a false sense of security in seeing the last remining Forsaken captured - when in reality one has made her escape unnoticed.  That's clever but I don't think enough is in the books to undermine the surface reading of Lanfear dead and Moghedien captured as the final end to The Forsaken.  Without being too critical of BS, he writes a great deal in a short timeframe (see Stormlight) so things can seem a little rushed or clumsy at times and he was also trying to finish someone else's work so for me Lanfear's death was in keeping with tying up those loose ends like Masema or Padan Fain rather abruptly once their story role was done.

 

On 1/16/2023 at 11:10 AM, Asthereal said:

 

As far as Brandon revealed in the livestream, he did not change anything based on feedback from Matt. Matt said it was too obvious, but Brandon said he had more experience with reveals and plot twists like this, and that he reckoned he should keep it as it was, as he felt most people would not pick up on this as easily as Matt. Matt knows the books so well he is likely to pick up on things a lot faster than others, and Brandon said he took this into account when checking his feedback from the beta-read.

 

 

 

Lanfear didn't plan to rule through Perrin, rather she planned to stage her death though him, while making sure the Light had the best chance to prevail. This was her only chance to come out somewhat okay. She's a lot weaker than she was before due to her time with the Finn, but she's still quite strong in the one power, and in the new world post-Last Battle, with everybody thinking she's dead, she should be able to get away and establish something new for herself.

Note that she died when Moridin rescued her from the Finn, which is why she came out of that with a new look and name (Cyndane). As far as I can tell, she never revealed this new look to people from the Light, as she looked like her old self in the dreamworld. And indeed she is very much capable of disguising herself with weaves anyway, so she should be able to do basically whatever she wants now. Except going to the Seanchan, as I'm guessing she's not too fond of risking a collar around her neck.

 

Thanks for clarifying.  I take my hat off to Matt then.

 

And, yes I understand what you are saying: this is BS's explanation for what Lanfear was doing.  What I was saying was her motivations and conduct were quite plausible if she intended to help defeat The Dark One but use Perrin as a surrogate consort to rule through as she intended to use Rand throughout the early part of the series.  It's entirely in keeping with her character and intentions.

 

The main reason for her survival seems to be to give the reader room to speculate about what harm might be caused by her being loose.  Honestly, I feel the better way of achieving this aim would be to have Moghedien remain free.  It serves entirely the same purpose and is set up in the text.  I don't really see the point of tricking the reader and revealing what you did (or intended) ten years later.  Surprises in story not afterwards, please 🙂

 

 

2 hours ago, Asthereal said:

Lastly, if you choose leave Sanderson out of it, you support the idea of Death of the Author.

 

I think @Samt was really just saying "Show, don't Tell".  BS quite deliberately decided not to show us Lanfear was alive (quite the opposite, he showed us her neck being snapped) so had to tell us ten years later.  We can debate the breadcrumbs he left us but very, very few people came to the conclusion that Lanfear survived from the text, hence the ten-year anniversary reveal.

 

Why was this kept back until now, I wonder?  The Companion (published 2015) states that Bela survived "miraculously" but is unambiguous that Cyndane was killed by Perrin.  I suspect this is because 1) The Companion is a collection of RJ's authorial notes and he did not plan this, 2) The Companion authors did not know and 3) Harriet and BS had not decided to run with this version of events at the time of publication.  It would be interesting to know if subsequent editions will amend / have amended this.

[Scarloc99]

3 hours ago, Asthereal said:

Lastly, if you choose leave Sanderson out of it, you support the idea of Death of the Author. That's cool and definitely something you can choose to do, but you can't debate this reveal without acknowlegding this. I can't stress enough how important this point is. If you support the idea of Death of the Author, you can't discuss this reveal with people who don't, as the reveal isn't canon for you, and never will be, but you'll never be able to convince them of why, as they don't see the story the way you do.

Though I have to say that DotA, as a principal philosophical discussion, is an interesting one to have. We'd need a different thread though, probably also in a different section of the forum.

Thank you :), the first time I have seen anyone else reference Death of the Author on a forum like this :). I tip my hat to you :). 

But yes to get into a full discussion would probably mean an entire new Forum, allowing peoples different threads, but, my experience is that the positive is that you gather a group of people who discuss the ideas and accept that they are all right regardless of how different those ideas are. 

[Samt]

11 hours ago, Asthereal said:

 

No, it can't be Moridin, as the chapter is written from Rand's perspective. This is clearly stated, and it's clear that Rand is the one who survived, otherwise the chapter can't be from his perspective. Unless you argue that the narrator here is unreliable, but you'll need strong arguments, and I see none in the text.

 

Why Lanfear's counting feels "off" for me I already explained. She just stated there isn't much time. Perrin is under compulsion and should do what she asks. There is no reason to delay. The counting allows for things to go wrong and should not be done. It makes Lanfear look like an idiot. The only sensible explanation that allows for Lanfear to remain one of the smartest characters, is that she planned this all and wants Perrin to break through the compulsion, and that the count to three gives him time to do so. Just like Sanderson revealed.

 

Lastly, if you choose leave Sanderson out of it, you support the idea of Death of the Author. That's cool and definitely something you can choose to do, but you can't debate this reveal without acknowlegding this. I can't stress enough how important this point is. If you support the idea of Death of the Author, you can't discuss this reveal with people who don't, as the reveal isn't canon for you, and never will be, but you'll never be able to convince them of why, as they don't see the story the way you do.

Though I have to say that DotA, as a principal philosophical discussion, is an interesting one to have. We'd need a different thread though, probably also in a different section of the forum.

Thanks for the well written response.  The Moridin survives theory is obviously not serious.  I'm just trying to make the point that there can be lots of whacky fan theories.  If Brandon Sanderson hadn't said it, Lanfear survives would be firmly counted among them. 

I think @Stedding Tofuhas pretty succinctly summarized the reasons for this.  It requires us to assume that lots of what is shown on the page is an illusion, that the companion authors didn't understand the book, that Lanfear's plan is convoluted and specific, and that the book is generally subverting fantasy expectations by making the heroes into fools with meaningless pseudo-achievements and allowing the villains to survive (for essentially no reason given that no sequel is likely or was ever likely after RJ's death).  

In regards to DotA, I would say I assume a middle position.  The author does not retain absolute control once the book is published, but anything the author says in regards to the story or message should be regarded with extreme deference.  I think that is what has brought us here.  If basically anyone else had said that Lanfear survives, hardly anyone would have given it a second thought.  Brandon Sanderson said it and my initial reaction was to consider that it would be interesting to explore that and understand what I had missed.  But I think it's becoming clear that the answer is really not much.  

 

It seems that BS himself acknowledges to some extent the fact that he does not retain absolute control.  If he didn't, he wouldn't feel the need to specify that this isn't a retcon and bring witnesses to the fact that this was always the intention (and that Harriet and the team had agreed to this).  In the end, I'm coming to the conclusion that the reveal should be interpreted more as a statement of the intention that was not really delivered.  Writing a story like WoT is a complicated process that will always have lots of "might have beens."  For instance, Lanfear surviving might have been an interesting story.

[JyP]

On 1/17/2023 at 1:21 PM, Stedding Tofu said:

The Companion (published 2015) states that Bela survived "miraculously" but is unambiguous that Cyndane was killed by Perrin.  I suspect this is because 1) The Companion is a collection of RJ's authorial notes and he did not plan this, 2) The Companion authors did not know and 3) Harriet and BS had not decided to run with this version of events at the time of publication.  It would be interesting to know if subsequent editions will amend / have amended this.

4) Cyndane and Lanfear somehow separated in Tel'aran'rhiod (Voldemort style)

 

What we have to support this theory : 

 

1) Hopper,Noam/Boundless : a man in Randland, which is a wolf in Tel'aran'rhiod

2) Perrin who can shift as a wolf or a man in Tel'aran'rhiod

3) Slayer / Luc dichotomy

4) to check again : from all battles in Tel'aran'rhiod, all the times the protagonist was fooled to think he killed someone, but it was a lure.

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by JyP

[Samt]

10 hours ago, JyP said:

4) Cyndane and Lanfear somehow separated in Tel'aran'rhiod (Voldemort style)

 

What we have to support this theory : 

 

1) Hopper, a man in Randland, which is a wolf in Tel'aran'rhiod

2) Perrin who can shift as a wolf or a man in Tel'aran'rhiod

3) Slayer / Luc dichotomy

4) to check again : from all battles in Tel'aran'rhiod, all the times the protagonist was fooled to think he killed someone, but it was a lure.

 

When does the separation happen?  
Is Lanfear even present at Shayol Gul?  
Does Cyndane have a consciousness separate from that of Lanfear?  

If so, is Cyndane on board with the whole dying thing, or is Lanfear playing her, too?  
Or is it more a case of one consciousness controlling two bodies and choosing to sacrifice one of them (Sort of lizard losing a tail style)?

 

Also, when does it say that Hopper is a man in Randland?  I thought that Hopper was a wolf everywhere who dies first in Randland and then in Tel.  

Edited January 18, 2023 by Samt

[Samt]

Oh, I assume you are talking about Noam/Boundless.  Hopper was always a wolf (at least in all the ages and parts of the story that we see).  

[Sabio]

Moridin killed Lanfear to rescue her, she was stuffed in a new body.  She simply chooses to use her old form in the dream world.  Like Grendal, Aginor etc her soul just was placed in a new body.

[JyP]

13 hours ago, Samt said:

Oh, I assume you are talking about Noam/Boundless.  Hopper was always a wolf (at least in all the ages and parts of the story that we see).  

yes my bad, I talked about Hopper, where I had Noam/Boundless in mind. I corrected my post.

 

Quote

 

When does the separation happen?  
Is Lanfear even present at Shayol Gul?  
Does Cyndane have a consciousness separate from that of Lanfear?  

If so, is Cyndane on board with the whole dying thing, or is Lanfear playing her, too?  
Or is it more a case of one consciousness controlling two bodies and choosing to sacrifice one of them (Sort of lizard losing a tail style)?

 

 

I guess one hint would be how most Forsaken can enter Tel'aran'rhiod at will - but that Aiel Dreamers say doing so is evil/taboo (I don't recall if they say exactly the reason why ?).