Birgitte Silverbow

[LightShaSha]

Ok.  I haven't seen this discussed yet. Doesn't mean it hasn't been, just that I've not seen it. Please. If it has... I am sorry

 

But the reincarnation of Brigitte..  in the end of A Memory of Light it says she feels herself being reincarnated that someone is giving birth.

Does anyone know how far along Amys was at this time?  Could it be one of her twins?

[DojoToad]

I don't recall such a discussion.  I'd say not one of Amys' babies.  How many threads do we need between our heroes?

Edited October 29, 2022 by DojoToad

[Scarloc99]

On 10/29/2022 at 12:51 PM, DojoToad said:

I don't recall such a discussion.  I'd say not one of Amys' babies.  How many threads do we need between our heroes?

I mean if the story of an entire galaxy (star wars) must be based around just a single family then taking a cast of hundreds of characters and weaving them into the main story seems paltry :). 

But it raises an interesting question, is the Hero pulled out of the wheel at the point of Conception, Birth or somewhere in between. Have lives been lost before birth, during or even in the formative first year or so. Did a version of Artur die age 2 from an accident? Or is the hero always destined to live a long life? 

[DojoToad]

11 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I mean if the story of an entire galaxy (star wars) must be based around just a single family then taking a cast of hundreds of characters and weaving them into the main story seems paltry :). 

But it raises an interesting question, is the Hero pulled out of the wheel at the point of Conception, Birth or somewhere in between. Have lives been lost before birth, during or even in the formative first year or so. Did a version of Artur die age 2 from an accident? Or is the hero always destined to live a long life? 

Does it matter when you're tied to the Wheel?

[Scarloc99]

22 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Does it matter when you're tied to the Wheel?

What I mean is does the Hero only get pulled as the baby is being born, meaning that the wheel hedges it's bets a bit, if it needs a hero for an age it at least makes sure the baby is coming to full term. Or does the wheel then ensure the baby lives to maturity. It raises interesting questions about true free will in the WOT universe. Yes the Heroes live varied lives (Birgitte remembers mundane ordinary lives where she lives in peace), but, is this because it is the life the wheel picked out for her in that moment?

It is worth a forum topic on it's own, I am just not sure how to word the question in the right way :). 

[DojoToad]

2 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

What I mean is does the Hero only get pulled as the baby is being born, meaning that the wheel hedges it's bets a bit, if it needs a hero for an age it at least makes sure the baby is coming to full term. Or does the wheel then ensure the baby lives to maturity. It raises interesting questions about true free will in the WOT universe. Yes the Heroes live varied lives (Birgitte remembers mundane ordinary lives where she lives in peace), but, is this because it is the life the wheel picked out for her in that moment?

It is worth a forum topic on it's own, I am just not sure how to word the question in the right way :). 

Guess that depends on the definition of life in Randland.  I would think it happens at conception, otherwise could be quite jarring to have an 'ordinary' soul displaced by the 'hero' soul after the Wheel/Pattern determines the life is viable.

[Kalessin]

Well, we do know of one life when Birgitte Silverbow died young - when she went into the Tower of Genji to find a cure for Gaidal Cain's then-current incarnation. Reading that incident, which she tells Mat in Caemlyn, I get the feeling that she then was not much older than Mat was, when she died in that story.

 

As far as being incarnated at conception or at birth, a fetus at conception is not much more than an outline, and simply doesn't have the equipment to "possess" a soul, however you imagine it. Doris Lessing uses an image in one of her books, Briefing for a Descent into Hell, iirc, (and probably in Shikasta too, iirc) of sinking into the fetus, getting in time with the heartbeat ... FWLIW 🙂

[Asthereal]

On 10/31/2022 at 10:10 AM, Sir_Charrid said:

Did a version of Artur die age 2 from an accident? Or is the hero always destined to live a long life? 

 

I'd say especially ta'veren are destined to live the life they're supposed to, as they are bound to the pattern and the pattern is woven in such a way as to allow for the ta'veren person to live their life as planned.

 

So no, Artur Hawkwing age 2 would never die from accident. The accident would conveniently happen in such a way as not to allow harm to come to our 2 year old future hero. All through the books we see stuff like this happen, but it's most clear in The Dragon Reborn when the party is chasing Rand to Tear, and they see all sorts of weird effects from his being so strongly ta'veren.

[Scarloc99]

2 hours ago, Asthereal said:

 

I'd say especially ta'veren are destined to live the life they're supposed to, as they are bound to the pattern and the pattern is woven in such a way as to allow for the ta'veren person to live their life as planned.

 

So no, Artur Hawkwing age 2 would never die from accident. The accident would conveniently happen in such a way as not to allow harm to come to our 2 year old future hero. All through the books we see stuff like this happen, but it's most clear in The Dragon Reborn when the party is chasing Rand to Tear, and they see all sorts of weird effects from his being so strongly ta'veren.

Disagree with one point here, the Finn told Mat he would die if he moved away from the path, but, that suggests he had free will to do that. 

[Asthereal]

On 11/3/2022 at 5:30 PM, Sir_Charrid said:

Disagree with one point here, the Finn told Mat he would die if he moved away from the path, but, that suggests he had free will to do that. 

 

Ah yes, the free will aspect versus a deterministic/fixed fate world view. This is a paradox whichever way you put it. If you believe in free will but also believe that we are destined to achieve whatever we are destined to achieve, then one of your beliefs must be wrong, as they exclude one another.

 

In the world of the Wheel of Time all major events are predetermined. Therefore there is no free will for the people involved (the pattern will just weave their actions such that the predetermined events will take place).

Actually, it is my personal opinion that this mechanism invalidates Moridin's philosophy that the Dark One will inevitably win. He won't, because the pattern doesn't allow him to win. He will lose over and over until all eternity. The world, the pattern and the Wheel of Time are designed to be a perfect prison for the Dark One. IF there would be a chance that the Dark One would win, he would eventually inevitably do so. But there isn't a chance, so the point is moot.

Of course if you start to believe that it doesn't matter what you do, the Light will win anyway, you might get complacent and then maybe the Shadow gets a chance. But nobody gets complacent. The Pattern won't allow them. These souls will panic, they will get scared and they will fight for their lives, because that's what there were designed to do.

Or am I taking this too far? 😉 

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, Asthereal said:

 

Ah yes, the free will aspect versus a deterministic/fixed fate world view. This is a paradox whichever way you put it. If you believe in free will but also believe that we are destined to achieve whatever we are destined to achieve, then one of your beliefs must be wrong, as they exclude one another.

 

In the world of the Wheel of Time all major events are predetermined. Therefore there is no free will for the people involved (the pattern will just weave their actions such that the predetermined events will take place).

Actually, it is my personal opinion that this mechanism invalidates Moridin's philosophy that the Dark One will inevitably win. He won't, because the pattern doesn't allow him to win. He will lose over and over until all eternity. The world, the pattern and the Wheel of Time are designed to be a perfect prison for the Dark One. IF there would be a chance that the Dark One would win, he would eventually inevitably do so. But there isn't a chance, so the point is moot.

Of course if you start to believe that it doesn't matter what you do, the Light will win anyway, you might get complacent and then maybe the Shadow gets a chance. But nobody gets complacent. The Pattern won't allow them. These souls will panic, they will get scared and they will fight for their lives, because that's what there were designed to do.

Or am I taking this too far? 😉 

This is where I kind of sit. 

Which leads to a further thought, RJ's universe is a multiverse, and, there are other planets throughout that universe potentially with life on them so, is the WOT planet, in this universe of the multiverse, the single one where that battle is fought and the dark one imprisoned. One planet and billions of souls trapped in an endless cycle as the rest of the universes move on forward through time. 

[Asthereal]

1 hour ago, Sir_Charrid said:

This is where I kind of sit. 

Which leads to a further thought, RJ's universe is a multiverse, and, there are other planets throughout that universe potentially with life on them so, is the WOT planet, in this universe of the multiverse, the single one where that battle is fought and the dark one imprisoned. One planet and billions of souls trapped in an endless cycle as the rest of the universes move on forward through time. 

 

I don't know how much else there is in this universe or multiverse, and how people living there would relate to the Pattern and the Wheel of Time. A multiverse idea doesn't really gel with the main idea of the series, so I kind of pretend there isn't much else than just this world with our heroes.  😉 

[Scarloc99]

8 hours ago, Asthereal said:

 

I don't know how much else there is in this universe or multiverse, and how people living there would relate to the Pattern and the Wheel of Time. A multiverse idea doesn't really gel with the main idea of the series, so I kind of pretend there isn't much else than just this world with our heroes.  😉 

A multiverse is theorized throughout the books, I mean there are the portal stones that actually transport you to other versions of our universe. Lanfer explains that they are what happens when someone turns left instead of right. I also like to imagine that the different versions of the world Rand saw at the final battle, the different lives aes sedai see in the accepted test and the lives lived in the Wisdom tests as well, are not visions but actually looking or experiencing these other universes. The idea of a multiverse threads through the series 

The Finn as well indicate that either there is intelligent life throughout the universe, or there is life in the multiverse. 

 

I have always wondered how much RJ was, if at all, influenced by the works of Stephen Hawking, a brief history of time came out in 88 and I imagine RJ may well have read that, and then gone on the read other multiverse theories which where gaining traction in the wider populace at the time. 

[DojoToad]

8 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I have always wondered how much RJ was, if at all, influenced by the works of Stephen Hawking, a brief history of time came out in 88 and I imagine RJ may well have read that, and then gone on the read other multiverse theories which where gaining traction in the wider populace at the time. 

Nothing about that in the 'Origins' book.  Though the author was careful to state that he didn't know everything.

[Asthereal]

8 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I have always wondered how much RJ was, if at all, influenced by the works of Stephen Hawking, a brief history of time came out in 88 and I imagine RJ may well have read that, and then gone on the read other multiverse theories which where gaining traction in the wider populace at the time. 

 

It's hard to say. The portalstones more or less fade out of sight after book 4, and Jordan never really went in deep on this aspect. Perhaps his editor and wife reigned him in on this, as the world was complex enough already, and adding a full multiverse with all its implications would have ground the entire thing to a halt even more so than already happened in books 7-10.

[KakitaOCU]

I'd say there's probably more mild Ta'veren effects around a reborn her that protects the mother until birth and then protects the kiddo.