Doubt as a newcomer reguarding Tar valon and Aes sedai.

[FreshMedlar]

Hi everyone, I'm new to the forum and the series, currently reading the third book, when Egwene is back to Tar Valon after the Thomas Head battle.
I'm liking the book so far, but there is something bugging me regarding Tar Valon, Aes sedai, the Amyrlin Seat and the black ajah. I wanted to ask you if those are plot hole or I'm too early in the books, just what you think about it.

• The Amyrlin Seat is described to be the most respected and powerful woman, but she act as if on the verge of being overthrown, her servants will be surprised if she doesn't do exactly as expected and no Aes Sedai respect her. On the other side, she herself doesn't seem authoritative and does not react to any wrongdoing in Tar Valon, making me wonder how is she on the throne.
• regarding the Black Ajah, I don't see how it's possible for any Aes Sedai living in Tar Valon to be part of it. Because the Aes Sedai must say the truth, 3 yes or no question to every Aes Sedai would resolve the entire thing. If the Amyrlin Seat is half as powerful as described to be, she should be able to do as much.

Unrelated and just funny, but I find stupid how the worst punishment in Tar Valon is "scrubbing pot" and "working in the stable"... either they only described a small part of punishment or these incredibly strong woman are crying themselves to sleep over some dishwashing???

I've seen woman do way tougher thing and not breaking a sweat.

Let me know if there is something wrong with the post, being my first one.

Thanks, FreshMedlar

 

[Asthereal]

I'd love to answer your questions, but literally every relevant reply is a spoiler for later books.

Your first question will be answered in book 4.

Your second question is one of the throughlines for the entire series, and the definitive answer comes in the finale of book 14, so you'll have to persevere if you want a satisfying answer to that one.

 

If you ever get stuck and give up, let us know, and we'll answer them here, but I'm pretty sure you'll have more fun getting the answers from Jordan himself. ? 

 

Also, if you can use magic to do almost anything, having to do dishes is quite the punishment. But it speaks in your favor that this bit confuses you. It shows you're less priviledged and willing to work hard for things. ?

Edited April 1, 2022 by Asthereal

[FreshMedlar]

Thanks a lot, for the kindness and for not spoiling. I can't wait to discover everything.

Regarding the last part, you are right. I forgot they could use magic, and so it's not only tiring but also frustrating/humiliating, also knowing how much they love using the One Power. Now the crying make sense.

Thanks?

[Asthereal]

19 minutes ago, FreshMedlar said:

Thanks a lot, for the kindness and for not spoiling. I can't wait to discover everything.

Regarding the last part, you are right. I forgot they could use magic, and so it's not only tiring but also frustrating/humiliating, also knowing how much they love using the One Power. Now the crying make sense.

Thanks?

 

No problem!

 

And yeah, the Aes Sedai need to learn humility during their time as novices and accepted, and considering the Aes Sedai we meet throughout the story, I'd say they could have used a little more on that front. ? 

 

Anyway, be careful what topics you click on here on the forum. Many of them contain spoilers all the way to the end of the series, and since the series ended so long ago, we often forget to hide the spoilery comments.

 

 

[Andra]

I think I can offer a little help on this without spoiling anything.

1: The Amyrlin is the most respected and powerful woman, but her power is not absolute.  The Hall of the Tower can and does do things on its own.  Amyrlins have been deposed (or assassinated) in the past, and any woman who holds the office would be aware of the risks associated with being found out doing something like what she and Moiraine are doing.  Tower politics hasn't been covered so much yet, but you will see much more of it later.

As far as why she holds the Seat?  She was elected to it by the Hall.  A Hall that was tired of old women dying after a short time in office, so they elected someone young.

 

2: It's true that a Black sister can lie, but nothing would require her to.  If faced with a yes/no question that might expose her, she can simply answer as anyone else would who had to tell the truth.  You might be able to catch someone lying, but you can't force them to lie.

 

 

And as far as punishment is concerned - it's the shame that matters, not the physical work.  Though as you suspected, there are worse punishments.  Even more shaming than scrubbing pots or mucking stables.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Andra

[FreshMedlar]

On 4/1/2022 at 9:00 PM, Andra said:

I think I can offer a little help on this without spoiling anything.

1: The Amyrlin is the most respected and powerful woman, but her power is not absolute.  The Hall of the Tower can and does do things on its own.  Amyrlins have been deposed (or assassinated) in the past, and any woman who holds the office would be aware of the risks associated with being found out doing something like what she and Moiraine are doing.  Tower politics hasn't been covered so much yet, but you will see much more of it later.

As far as why she holds the Seat?  She was elected to it by the Hall.  A Hall that was tired of old women dying after a short time in office, so they elected someone young.

 

2: It's true that a Black sister can lie, but nothing would require her to.  If faced with a yes/no question that might expose her, she can simply answer as anyone else would who had to tell the truth.  You might be able to catch someone lying, but you can't force them to lie.

 

 

And as far as punishment is concerned - it's the shame that matters, not the physical work.  Though as you suspected, there are worse punishments.  Even more shaming than scrubbing pots or mucking stables.

Thanks for the answer.

About the spoiler, be careful, at this point in the series it's not known that the Black Ajah's Aes Sedai can lie. It's a relatively small spoiler so I don't mind.

[Andra]

36 minutes ago, FreshMedlar said:

Thanks for the answer.

About the spoiler, be careful, at this point in the series it's not known that the Black Ajah's Aes Sedai can lie. It's a relatively small spoiler so I don't mind.

Actually it is known.  Or at least it should be readily apparent.  Based only on what was seen in The Great Hunt from Liandrin.  Or from discussions of the Black Ajah by other characters.

 

Of course that depends on the reader having figured out that Liandrin was Black without being told so explicitly.  Because she clearly lied to the three girls to get them to Toman Head and turn them over to Suroth.

 

If it wasn't apparent, it's only a spoiler for a very brief time from where you are.  And I apologize for the brief spoiler.

 

[Elgee]

On 4/1/2022 at 9:00 PM, Andra said:

And as far as punishment is concerned - it's the shame that matters, not the physical work. 

 

Have you ever scrubbed rock hard floors on your knees with a handbrush, caustic soap & water, for hours on end? It's ... unpleasant. ?

[FreshMedlar]

11 hours ago, Andra said:

Actually it is known.  Or at least it should be readily apparent.  Based only on what was seen in The Great Hunt from Liandrin.  Or from discussions of the Black Ajah by other characters.

 

Of course that depends on the reader having figured out that Liandrin was Black without being told so explicitly.  Because she clearly lied to the three girls to get them to Toman Head and turn them over to Suroth.

 

If it wasn't apparent, it's only a spoiler for a very brief time from where you are.  And I apologize for the brief spoiler.

 

It was so obvious that Liandrin was a Black Sister it was frustrating reading that part.

But she never lied. She said they would go to Toman Head ( and they did) and, I quote: "If you will come with me, some dangers, at least, may be eliminated. Do not ask how, for I cannot tell you, but I tell you flatly it is so." which is true, because the seachan are dangerous to Rand and Liandrin knew that after taking Egwene and Nynaeve some would go back to seachan, which means less dangers. (Yes, I went back and re-read the chapter).

Same during the journey in the Ways.

[FreshMedlar]

1 hour ago, Elgee said:

 

Have you ever scrubbed rock hard floors on your knees with a handbrush, caustic soap & water, for hours on end? It's ... unpleasant. ?

Indeed it is.

[Andra]

17 hours ago, FreshMedlar said:

It was so obvious that Liandrin was a Black Sister it was frustrating reading that part.

But she never lied. She said they would go to Toman Head ( and they did) and, I quote: "If you will come with me, some dangers, at least, may be eliminated. Do not ask how, for I cannot tell you, but I tell you flatly it is so." which is true, because the seachan are dangerous to Rand and Liandrin knew that after taking Egwene and Nynaeve some would go back to seachan, which means less dangers. (Yes, I went back and re-read the chapter).

Same during the journey in the Ways.

She did make the same kind of statements dancing around the truth that Aes Sedai are known for.  Demonstrating that being able to lie doesn't mean being required to lie.  If the truth suits their purposes, they can tell the truth.  But sending Egwene and Nynaeve off to Seanchan wouldn't remotely eliminate dangers to Rand.  Quite the reverse, in fact.  Nor would the members of the Seanchan forces that were a danger to him go back with them.

The sul'dam that would have held their leashes were not in themselves dangerous to him, since they can't channel (as far as they know).

 

But even without any specific lie from Liandrin, it still logically follows that Black sisters can lie.

Because your reasoning about them is absolutely sound.

 

If Black Ajah sisters remain bound by the First Oath, it would be trivially easy to expose them in the Tower by asking a direct question, just as you said.  The fact that we know they exist there, and have for thousands of years, leads to one of two logical conclusions:

1: Aes Sedai in general are too stupid to have figured that out, and so have never asked direct questions.

2: The Black Ajah have found some way to remove the Oaths.

 

And if you think about the rest of the oaths, it's even more likely that this has happened.  A channeler who can't use the Power as a weapon except for the reasons stated in the Third Oath wouldn't be much use to the Shadow.

[Andra]

19 hours ago, Elgee said:

 

Have you ever scrubbed rock hard floors on your knees with a handbrush, caustic soap & water, for hours on end? It's ... unpleasant. ?

True, but then I don't have the ability to use the Power to do it for me, while being forbidden to do so.

Enduring the unpleasantness while knowing you could avoid it produces even more shame than it would if there was no way to avoid it.

[Juan Farstrider]

On 4/1/2022 at 5:05 AM, FreshMedlar said:

The Amyrlin Seat is described to be the most respected and powerful woman, but she act as if on the verge of being overthrown, her servants will be surprised if she doesn't do exactly as expected and no Aes Sedai respect her.

Is this not like the real world? Does not every person with visible power owe a debt to some one or some group that put them there? Roman emperors ended up often only serving at the pleasure of the legions and their top generals. 

I know you will love the rest of the books, but I dare not say more. 

[FreshMedlar]

16 hours ago, Andra said:

She did make the same kind of statements dancing around the truth that Aes Sedai are known for.  Demonstrating that being able to lie doesn't mean being required to lie.  If the truth suits their purposes, they can tell the truth.  But sending Egwene and Nynaeve off to Seanchan wouldn't remotely eliminate dangers to Rand.  Quite the reverse, in fact.  Nor would the members of the Seanchan forces that were a danger to him go back with them.

The sul'dam that would have held their leashes were not in themselves dangerous to him, since they can't channel (as far as they know).

 

But even without any specific lie from Liandrin, it still logically follows that Black sisters can lie.

Because your reasoning about them is absolutely sound.

 

If Black Ajah sisters remain bound by the First Oath, it would be trivially easy to expose them in the Tower by asking a direct question, just as you said.  The fact that we know they exist there, and have for thousands of years, leads to one of two logical conclusions:

1: Aes Sedai in general are too stupid to have figured that out, and so have never asked direct questions.

2: The Black Ajah have found some way to remove the Oaths.

 

And if you think about the rest of the oaths, it's even more likely that this has happened.  A channeler who can't use the Power as a weapon except for the reasons stated in the Third Oath wouldn't be much use to the Shadow.

You are right, the whole thing would have been unrealistic if the black Sisters had not been able to remove the oath.

It was the only major flaw I found until now, I didn't think for a second the oath could be broken, I was too hasty.

Thanks for the thorough explanation.

[FreshMedlar]

32 minutes ago, Juan Farstrider said:

Is this not like the real world? Does not every person with visible power owe a debt to some one or some group that put them there? Roman emperors ended up often only serving at the pleasure of the legions and their top generals. 

I know you will love the rest of the books, but I dare not say more. 

Now I'm curious and excited?.

 

Regarding the Amyrlin, it's true, it was and it will be. I tend to be idealistic, but your point of view is much more realistic.

 

[Juan Farstrider]

35 minutes ago, FreshMedlar said:

Now I'm curious and excited?.

 

Regarding the Amyrlin, it's true, it was and it will be. I tend to be idealistic, but your point of view is much more realistic.

 

There's an interesting thing about idealism. As a personal trait we often take it to mean wanting the best or expecting a level of perfection that the older see as unrealistic as they become realists. But idealism also deals with the idea that some abstraction is real or more real than reality and the abstraction is both recognizable but unknowable. It is tied to subjectivism. So, idealism and subjectivism are like one thing or on one side, and objectivism and realism (which I don't necessarily associate together, directly) are together on another side.

But these seats of power might not even exist in some platonic realm of forms where the ideal version of things exist (if such a realm exists or even if such a realm is worth entertaining the way imaginary numbers are worth thinking about and using). I mean what's "idealistic" in any sense about someone's power over others? Parents power over their children is fully functional and necessary and purely realistic maybe. I'm thinking aloud (clack clack clack as I type: aloud.) Sorry. 

[Andra]

4 hours ago, FreshMedlar said:

You are right, the whole thing would have been unrealistic if the black Sisters had not been able to remove the oath.

It was the only major flaw I found until now, I didn't think for a second the oath could be broken, I was too hasty.

Thanks for the thorough explanation.

My pleasure.

 

It's actually one of the things that I like about this series.  So much of it ends up matching what a little logic would tell you.  Even if the things you apply the logic to don't exist in the real world.

[FreshMedlar]

12 hours ago, Juan Farstrider said:

There's an interesting thing about idealism. As a personal trait we often take it to mean wanting the best or expecting a level of perfection that the older see as unrealistic as they become realists. But idealism also deals with the idea that some abstraction is real or more real than reality and the abstraction is both recognizable but unknowable. It is tied to subjectivism. So, idealism and subjectivism are like one thing or on one side, and objectivism and realism (which I don't necessarily associate together, directly) are together on another side.

But these seats of power might not even exist in some platonic realm of forms where the ideal version of things exist (if such a realm exists or even if such a realm is worth entertaining the way imaginary numbers are worth thinking about and using). I mean what's "idealistic" in any sense about someone's power over others? Parents power over their children is fully functional and necessary and purely realistic maybe. I'm thinking aloud (clack clack clack as I type: aloud.) Sorry. 

It's true☺️, ironically when I said "idealistic" I though about my ideal version of things.

But I also meant that I usually hope for the good to prevail, which at this point I don't know if it can be called "being idealistic", because it means getting the "ideal" outcome (

Spoiler

I say ideal outcome because I believe the line between good and evil is objective

) in a situation which is not ideal to begin with. And this accepting reality as it is sounds realist to me now?

I'll stop here before I get more confused, I was one of the worst in my philosophy class, although I didn't like the professor more than the subject.

What I wrote it's just my though, backed up by no knowledge on the ideal/real idea.

 

 

 

[Juan Farstrider]

10 hours ago, FreshMedlar said:

the line between good and evil is objective

 

Yep, and that's true even when it's blurry and we can't really figure it out. I think when people are in situations where is no good choice but bad choices, the person in that situation either got there or was pushed their by crossing that line long before. Not always. There are characters in the books, one in particular, who I wrestle with how the character got in such a situation. 

[Dagon Thyne]

The OP has clearly never done dishes for hundreds of people every single day.  

[Dagon Thyne]

No ruler is ever completely respected.  There is always politics, and there are always people wanting to take power.  She and Moiraine are also doing something that the Tower would see as treason, since they are letting a man who can channel go free.  This is mentioned several times in the first couple books.  You saw their reaction when Verin figured out who Rand was, and what they were doing in The Great Hunt, I'm sure.  They beleived they were either going to have to murder her to keep it secret or were both going to be stilled and executed as traitors. 

    

[FreshMedlar]

On 4/6/2022 at 5:01 PM, Dagon Thyne said:

The OP has clearly never done dishes for hundreds of people every single day.  

I can understand your doubt because this is internet, but this time you guessed it wrong... I did and they didn't even teach me magic in return. Try to remember to treat other people as you would in person, hopefully not as rude.

About the other answer you are right, this thread made me understand the situation better.

 

[qlorin]

On 4/1/2022 at 12:05 PM, FreshMedlar said:

The Amyrlin Seat is described to be the most respected and powerful woman, but she act as if on the verge of being overthrown

Powerful yes... Respected depends... Most of the world hates her curses her actually ?

When you at the top of the world only way is down... There are real life events in our history... People at the top always fear about this stuff...

 

On 4/1/2022 at 12:05 PM, FreshMedlar said:

her servants will be surprised if she doesn't do exactly as expected and no Aes Sedai respect her.

This is true for all nobles... In second book in Cairhen... Rand doesnt act like a lord while everybody thinks he is and he gets in to a lot of trouble... He saved by Ingtar getting there if you think about what happens if Ingtar doesnt come he will be killed by King or most powerful Lord in the land depends on which letter he choses...

Aes Sedai respects her somewhat... But these are not farmers or soldiers they ARE Aes Sedai... They ARE most powerfull women in the world... There is not a huge gap between them...

 

On 4/1/2022 at 12:05 PM, FreshMedlar said:

the Aes Sedai must say the truth, 3 yes or no question to every Aes Sedai would resolve the entire thing

how indeed... They think this as well... They always say "there is no black ajah" until these event... Because its imposiblle to lie... This is the reason they are shocked about it... How can it be?... They dont know...