Rand's "trap" in TSR??

[aburuq]

Hi all. Been re-reading the series after 15 years or so, and just finished book 4 and starting book 5. I am puzzled by how things go down at the end of TSR and Rand trapping Asmodean. 

Throughout book 4, Rand is talking to himself about springing a trap before they do, being the hunter this time, nobody knows what I'm planning, etc. As things play out, clearly he intended to trap Asmodean somehow so he could teach him, having gotten the idea from Lanfear in Tear, but is in the meantime just trying to work towards uniting the Aiel chiefs behind him. He clearly knows that Lanfear and Asmodean are among the peddlers that join them in the Waste...and then afterwards, in beginning of book 5, he clearly thinks he was successful in seeing through their plans, springing this trap, and catching Asmodean. But what exactly all their plans are is very unclear, especially what Rand's plan was. So let's try to lay out what we know:

-I think we know Lanfear wanted to somehow trap Asmodean to get him to teach Rand so he can stay alive against other Forsaken. So she manipulated Asmodean, telling him that the two of us can basically control Rand or convince him to join them or something to then gain supremacy over the other forsaken? ... but what are they trying to do by going along with Rand's party, what are they trying to achieve?

-Asmodean seems to have somewhat gone along with that plan, cautiously trusting her, but also planned all along to go to Rhuidean to get the Choden Kal or whatever. How did he know that was there?? and why did he wait so long, why didn't he just go all along to go get it?? that made very little sense to me.
-and Rand... I don't understand what kind of trap he thinks he set? All he does is move forward with trying to unite the Aiel under him, and then things get out of control because of Koolaidin and Lanfear suddenly appears to him and *she* informs him that Asmodean has run off to Rhuidean. The only thing his knowing they were there along does is that he's not surprised. And then he's like "oh shoot, can't let him get that thing" and rushes off to stop him, and just so happens to be able to defeat him. And then it's again *Lanfear* that traps him for him, he doesn't do it. So what was his plan?? seems like there wasn't much of a plan at all.

 

Any clarification would be appreciated. 

[Elgee]

A load of interesting questions, which I've been asking myself for many years too. Can't remember if this was ever discussed in the old discussion threads.

[Chivalry]

I just re-read TSR. I think Rand suspected that the peddler was Asmodean. And I'm not sure he ever had a clear plan, but he was on the alert. Once the Forsaken revealed himself, he would pounce.

[Andra]

They way I understood Rand talking about "springing a trap" and "being the hunter" was primarily a general statement, given how much of the story prior to that involved him being trapped and hunted, and not in control of events.  Though some of it was obviously about the events in tSR.

 

The part that specifically relates to Lanfear and Asmodean was about taking what they offered, which he knew they intended to control him with, and cutting the leash.  Springing their trap then keeping what had been intended as bait.

 

Lanfear's plan (for which she roped in Asmodean) was to get Rand trained, then ally with him to overthrow the rest of the Forsaken.  Possibly to overthrow the Dark One himself.  But with herself holding the reins, of course.

What they are trying to achieve in entering the Waste as a peddler's caravan is to get close enough to him to accomplish this without raising too many suspicions.  And to cause whatever other mischief they could with the Shaido.  He recognizes what's going on, but doesn't blow the whistle because he wants to use them.

It's not certain that Asmodean knew specifically that the Access Keys were in Rhuidean, just that lots of potentially valuable objects of Power were there.  But he also recognized them for what they were as soon as he saw them.  He waited as long as he did to go for them because he was always a coward, and didn't know what kind of wards were on the city beyond those he already knew of from Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

Rand's trap of Asmodean comes by severing his connection to the Dark One.  It ensures Asmodean's loyalty by making it impossible for him to survive without Rand's protection, as weak as Lanfear has left him.

[qlorin]

On 3/28/2022 at 10:00 PM, aburuq said:

but what are they trying to do by going along with Rand's party, what are they trying to achieve?

Rand never agreed with Lanfear about Asmodean teaching him... Asmodean never agreed with her eighter he said "maybe... let see what kind of man this dragon reborn and we talk about this later"... Asmodean is there to see plan of Lanfear is even viable... He talks with Rand about greatness and power to rule etc...

Lanfear is there to protect Rand from Asmodean...

 

On 3/28/2022 at 10:00 PM, aburuq said:

Asmodean seems to have somewhat gone along with that plan, cautiously trusting her, but also planned all along to go to Rhuidean to get the Choden Kal or whatever. How did he know that was there??

I think he doesnt know initally there is a acsess key to Choden Kal... He thinks there must be something important there but doesnt know what it is... He repeatedly ask questions to Mat about Rhuidean what he seen out there... I think he learns from him or some wise ones he compelled... 

 

On 3/28/2022 at 10:00 PM, aburuq said:

and why did he wait so long, why didn't he just go all along to go get it

Lanfear is there...

On 3/28/2022 at 10:00 PM, aburuq said:

and Rand... I don't understand what kind of trap he thinks he set?

He is not smart ?

[Stedding Tofu]

On 4/1/2022 at 9:20 PM, Andra said:

They way I understood Rand talking about "springing a trap" and "being the hunter" was primarily a general statement, given how much of the story prior to that involved him being trapped and hunted, and not in control of events.  Though some of it was obviously about the events in tSR.

 

The part that specifically relates to Lanfear and Asmodean was about taking what they offered, which he knew they intended to control him with, and cutting the leash.  Springing their trap then keeping what had been intended as bait.

 

Lanfear's plan (for which she roped in Asmodean) was to get Rand trained, then ally with him to overthrow the rest of the Forsaken.  Possibly to overthrow the Dark One himself.  But with herself holding the reins, of course.

What they are trying to achieve in entering the Waste as a peddler's caravan is to get close enough to him to accomplish this without raising too many suspicions.  And to cause whatever other mischief they could with the Shaido.  He recognizes what's going on, but doesn't blow the whistle because he wants to use them.

It's not certain that Asmodean knew specifically that the Access Keys were in Rhuidean, just that lots of potentially valuable objects of Power were there.  But he also recognized them for what they were as soon as he saw them.  He waited as long as he did to go for them because he was always a coward, and didn't know what kind of wards were on the city beyond those he already knew of from Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

Rand's trap of Asmodean comes by severing his connection to the Dark One.  It ensures Asmodean's loyalty by making it impossible for him to survive without Rand's protection, as weak as Lanfear has left him.

 

I read it as Lanfear intending to bring Asmodean to Rand so they could feel each other out and thrash out an agreement.  I agree on her ulterior motives and long term plans.  Quite why she thought she could steer Asmodean where she wanted I'm not sure but the story demands that Rand learn how to channel from a male channeler so the sub-plot goes ahead though there are some weak points to me.

 

Rand anticipates Lanfear and Asmodean though he incorrectly assumes Kadere rather than Natael to be Asmodean.  Because of this he is very non-committal with Natael on the assurances of pardon that Asmodean is looking for leading Asmodean to back off.  He finds from Mat that one of the access keys to the Choedan Kal is in Rhuidean and marks Couladin with the dragon tattoos as to distract Rand, going to get the key while Rand is busy at Al'cair Dal.  This is why I find Lanfear's plan doubtful as Asmodean is off plan very quickly.

 

I did wonder how Rand intended to trap Asmodean but the revelation that he understands from his duels with Ishamael that the Forsaken are connected to The Dark One and that the connection can be severed explains this.  Once the connection is severed Asmodean has no choice but to throw his lot in with Rand.

 

Of course like most of Rand's plan's it's a full of holes and needs Lanfear to step in and tell him what Asmodean is up to so he can counter it.

 

[Sabio]

Rand knew the Forsaken would have to spring their trap before he united the Aiel.  I have no idea how he was planning to stop/counter it.

 

I was never clear how Lanfear was going to get Rand to accept Asmo training.  

 

Asmo being a selfish Forsaken who is out for himself develops the plan to cause chaos for Rand with trolloc attacks and the Shaido in order to distract Rand.  I assumed Asmo learned that the statues were in Rhudean from talking to Mat and Couladin,  He needs both Rand and Lanfear to be distracted so he can jump at his plan to get the statue or he risks Lanfear finding out and stopping him.  Not to mention we see him studying the god around Rhudiean in the dream world.  He needed a time to study and figure out a safe way into the city.  Asmo jumping off the plan so quickly is believeable since like all Forsaken he thinks of himself first.  Not to mention he doesn't trust Lanfear with all of her flirting and playing with Rand in the dream world.  So when the chance came up, he did his own thing for a chance at getting something to give him power and protection from a pissed off Lanfear.