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Winternight vs Bel Tine


Joe B
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Question for episode 1 that's been bugging me. Did the trolloc attack occur on Winternight or Bel Tine?

Here are possible explanations.

Winternight:

1. Rand and Tam came down a day earlier than the books....Winternight's Eve?

1a. Same for Moiraine and Lan

2. The dancing, merriment, and lantern lighting are Winternight celebrations.

3. Padan Fain arrives on Winternight day, as in the books and says "Happy Bel Tine" to the kids, because Bel Tine is a multi-day time of year??

 

Bel Tine:

1. Rand and Tam come down on Winternight, as in the book.

1a. Same for Moiraine and Lan

2. The dancing, merriment, and lantern lightning are Bel Tine celebrations

3. Padan Fain doesn't arrive on Winternight, contrary to the book. He arrives the next day (Bel Tine) saying, "happy Bel Tine" to the kids.

4. Rand literally says "Maybe we should be at Bel Tine. To light a candle for her."

 

Other option:

1. It doesn't matter. The show is the show and the books are the books. Get over it.

2. I try to go with this option, but it eats at me every time someone mentions the Winternight attack when discussing the show. I will have to do another rewatch, but is Winternight even mentioned in the show?

 

Edited by Joe B
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On 1/12/2022 at 3:11 PM, Joe B said:

Question for episode 1 that's been bugging me. Did the trolloc attack occur on Winternight or Bel Tine?

Here are possible explanations.

Winternight:

1. Rand and Tam came down a day earlier than the books....Winternight's Eve?

1a. Same for Moiraine and Lan

2. The dancing, merriment, and lantern lighting are Winternight celebrations.

3. Padan Fain arrives on Winternight day, as in the books and says "Happy Bel Tine" to the kids, because Bel Tine is a multi-day time of year??

 

Bel Tine:

1. Rand and Tam come down on Winternight, as in the book.

1a. Same for Moiraine and Lan

2. The dancing, merriment, and lantern lightning are Bel Tine celebrations

3. Padan Fain doesn't arrive on Winternight, contrary to the book. He arrives the next day (Bel Tine) saying, "happy Bel Tine" to the kids.

4. Rand literally says "Maybe we should be at Bel Tine. To light a candle for her."

 

Other option:

1. It doesn't matter. The show is the show and the books are the books. Get over it.

2. I try to go with this option, but it eats at me every time someone mentions the Winternight attack when discussing the show. I will have to do another rewatch, but is Winternight even mentioned in the show?

 

Under the calendar the books use, Winternight is nothing more than Bel Tine eve.  I don't think it is its own holiday, and I don't think they consider it to start until sundown.

All the things we see happening the day Rand and Tam first came to town are preparations for the holiday the next day, except for those that are specifically related to dark - like the lanterns.

The dancing on the Green, the outdoor games, the food - those are all Bel Tine.

 

If the attack happened at night, it was Winternight.

 

Wishing kids "happy Bel Tine" the day before would be the same as wishing "Merry Christmas" the day before.  It's a recognition of the season, not the specific day of the holiday.

 

Also, regarding when outsiders arrived in EF in the book:

All of them except Fain were already there when Rand and Tam got into town on Winternight day.  We know that Thom got in late the night before and had to pound on the Inn's door to be let in.  "Alys" and "Andra" probably arrived earlier the same day as Thom.  I don't recall the book ever saying specifically.  But they had been there long enough that she had already been asking around town about the boys.

 

Given those details, Lan and Moiraine arrived the day before Winernight day.  Thom arrived the night before Winternight day.  Fain arrived on Winternight day.  And the attack happened after dark on Winternight.

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3 hours ago, Andra said:

Under the calendar the books use, Winternight is nothing more than Bel Tine eve.  I don't think it is its own holiday, and I don't think they consider it to start until sundown.

All the things we see happening the day Rand and Tam first came to town are preparations for the holiday the next day, except for those that are specifically related to dark - like the lanterns.

The dancing on the Green, the outdoor games, the food - those are all Bel Tine.

 

If the attack happened at night, it was Winternight.

 

Wishing kids "happy Bel Tine" the day before would be the same as wishing "Merry Christmas" the day before.  It's a recognition of the season, not the specific day of the holiday.

 

Also, regarding when outsiders arrived in EF in the book:

All of them except Fain were already there when Rand and Tam got into town on Winternight day.  We know that Thom got in late the night before and had to pound on the Inn's door to be let in.  "Alys" and "Andra" probably arrived earlier the same day as Thom.  I don't recall the book ever saying specifically.  But they had been there long enough that she had already been asking around town about the boys.

 

Given those details, Lan and Moiraine arrived the day before Winernight day.  Thom arrived the night before Winternight day.  Fain arrived on Winternight day.  And the attack happened after dark on Winternight.

I can see where you are coming from. Personally, I WANT the attack to have occurred on Winternight.  After another rewatch, I am even more convinced that the attack on the night of Bel Tine. Here is a timeline:

Day 1 (which appears to be Winternight, thought there is no mention)

1. Rand and Tam arrive to EF.

2. Moiraine and Lan arrive.

3. That night, during clean up, Tam says ..if there is an Aes Sedai here... Bran then cuts him off and says "then she will enjoy Bel Tine TOMORROW like the rest of us."

4. They stay the night.

 

Day 2 (Bel Tine)

1. Padan Fain arrives... "Merry Bel Tine. Merry Bel Tine"

2. A bunch of things happen

3. Rand and Tam return to the Westwood (I mean "up-mountain")

4. Around dusk, Rand says "maybe we should be at Bel Tine to light a candle for her". Then they light a candle using a match firestick striker ???

5. It gets dark in EF and people are floating their lanterns.

6. Marin strikes up the party.

7. Then the trolloc attack occurs.

 

Day 3

1. Rand brings Tam down the mountain

2. Tam is healed

3. They all leave.

 

I am okay with BTTA. However, it still chafes when people say it happened on Winternight in the show. The book lover in me cries inside each time, because I know it should have. It should have.

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13 hours ago, Joe B said:

I can see where you are coming from. Personally, I WANT the attack to have occurred on Winternight.  After another rewatch, I am even more convinced that the attack on the night of Bel Tine. Here is a timeline:

Day 1 (which appears to be Winternight, thought there is no mention)

1. Rand and Tam arrive to EF.

2. Moiraine and Lan arrive.

3. That night, during clean up, Tam says ..if there is an Aes Sedai here... Bran then cuts him off and says "then she will enjoy Bel Tine TOMORROW like the rest of us."

4. They stay the night.

 

Day 2 (Bel Tine)

1. Padan Fain arrives... "Merry Bel Tine. Merry Bel Tine"

2. A bunch of things happen

3. Rand and Tam return to the Westwood (I mean "up-mountain")

4. Around dusk, Rand says "maybe we should be at Bel Tine to light a candle for her". Then they light a candle using a match firestick striker ???

5. It gets dark in EF and people are floating their lanterns.

6. Marin strikes up the party.

7. Then the trolloc attack occurs.

 

Day 3

1. Rand brings Tam down the mountain

2. Tam is healed

3. They all leave.

 

I am okay with BTTA. However, it still chafes when people say it happened on Winternight in the show. The book lover in me cries inside each time, because I know it should have. It should have.

You may be right - I'll have to check again.

The timeline I wrote up was based on the book.  Hence, the mention of Thom.

 

Also, if that's correct, then the most ridiculous part of it wouldn't be the precise day the attack happened.  I mean, what's one day either way?

It's having Rand and Tam stay overnight, then go back home ON BEL TINE.  Preposterous.

Edited by Andra
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15 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Screenshot_20220114-053716.thumb.jpg.a61cc87ca3574b9f832256d3b7ea6283.jpg

 

I'm not sure how trustworthy that is though.

Yes. This bonus content aligns with the books. However, the episode seems to have a bit of discontinuity with the bonus content. The timing doesn't seem to add up. Maybe it was originally written to occur on Winternight, but changes to the script caused a ripple effect?

I would understand if Rand and Tam arrived 2 days before Bel Tine. That would make sense, as they stayed the night, but why would Master al'Vere say Bel Tine was tomorrow? 

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14 hours ago, Andra said:

You may be right - I'll have to check again.

The timeline I wrote up was based on the book.  Hence, the mention of Thom.

 

Also, if that's correct, then the most ridiculous part of it wouldn't be the precise day the attack happened.  I mean, what's one day either way?

It's having Rand and Tam stay overnight, then go back home ON BEL TINE.  Preposterous.

The more I think about it, I think the attack was MEANT to occur on Winternight and probably did. I think the problem was the dialogue not supporting it. Or editing and moving scenes around???

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48 minutes ago, Joe B said:

The more I think about it, I think the attack was MEANT to occur on Winternight and probably did. I think the problem was the dialogue not supporting it. Or editing and moving scenes around???

It may be that they're treating the calendar the same way the Jewish calendar works.  A day (or a holiday) actually begins at sundown what we would call the day before.  The Jewish calendar runs from sundown to sundown, not midnight to midnight.  For example, today is Friday.  The Jewish Sabbath (Saturday) begins at sundown today, and ends at sundown tomorrow.

In which case Winternight isn't its own day, it's just the evening part at the beginning of Bel Tine.

 

Of course that would mean that Bran saying "tomorrow" was wrong, because "tomorrow" would actually have ended at sundown.  When Winternight (and Bel Tine) began.

 

Or is he actually saying "if they're still here tomorrow (ending at sundown), they can celebrate Bel Tine (starting at sundown) with us."  Because nobody starts a journey at night if they can avoid it.

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13 hours ago, Joe B said:

The more I think about it, I think the attack was MEANT to occur on Winternight and probably did. I think the problem was the dialogue not supporting it. Or editing and moving scenes around???

So I just watched it again, and you were right the first time.

The attack on the town of "Two Rivers" ("Emond's Field" is never mentioned, as far as I can tell) happened on Bel Tine.  AFTER the lantern lighting invented for the show.  No one ever refers to Winternight.

 

Rand and Tam - as well as Moiraine and Lan - arrive the day before Bel Tine, with Moiraine and Lan getting in after dark, in the rain.  They stay overnight at the Inn (I don't think "Winespring" is ever said) so Rand and Egwene can have their last night of hanky panky.  The morning of Bel Tine, Fain arrives.

Then Rand and Tam go back home.  Where Rand wonders why they didn't stay in town for the holiday.

 

If the Bonus Content says Winternight, it's repeating the book, not the show.

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16 hours ago, Andra said:

It may be that they're treating the calendar the same way the Jewish calendar works.  A day (or a holiday) actually begins at sundown what we would call the day before.  The Jewish calendar runs from sundown to sundown, not midnight to midnight.  For example, today is Friday.  The Jewish Sabbath (Saturday) begins at sundown today, and ends at sundown tomorrow.

In which case Winternight isn't its own day, it's just the evening part at the beginning of Bel Tine.

 

Of course that would mean that Bran saying "tomorrow" was wrong, because "tomorrow" would actually have ended at sundown.  When Winternight (and Bel Tine) began.

 

Or is he actually saying "if they're still here tomorrow (ending at sundown), they can celebrate Bel Tine (starting at sundown) with us."  Because nobody starts a journey at night if they can avoid it.

 

Ingenious, but it's more likely to be bad writing or editing.

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6 hours ago, EmreY said:

 

Ingenious, but it's more likely to be bad writing or editing.

No, it's actually that they changed it in the show.

 

The lanterns were something the show invented for Bel Tine.  The attack happened after that.

Not on the night before.  As far as I could tell, Episode 1 never even uses the word Winternight.

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On 1/13/2022 at 7:29 PM, Humbugged2 said:

In reality Latha Bealltainn   is May 1st and Samhaine in Nov 1st he swapped them round . Lá Fhéile Bríde is Feb 1st(start of Spring)  and Lùnastal is Aug 1st (Harvest kickoff) according to the Gaels (my peeps)

It's clear in the book that Bel Tine gets its name and most of its traditions from Beltane.  Most obviously the dancing around the Spring Pole.  But it's placed earlier in the year - more like Ostara.  Or even earlier between Imbolc and Ostara.  With Winternight being the celebration that winter is truly past, but planting perhaps only just starting.  

 

In the show, the weather looks much more like Beltane would be (warm and already green), but the celebrations are much more like what would be expected for Samhain.

 

It's almost like the show took everything they ever heard of a seasonal village celebration, and mashed it all into one holiday.

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55 minutes ago, Andra said:

It's clear in the book that Bel Tine gets its name and most of its traditions from Beltane.  Most obviously the dancing around the Spring Pole.  But it's placed earlier in the year - more like Ostara.  Or even earlier between Imbolc and Ostara.  With Winternight being the celebration that winter is truly past, but planting perhaps only just starting.  

 

In the show, the weather looks much more like Beltane would be (warm and already green), but the celebrations are much more like what would be expected for Samhain.

 

It's almost like the show took everything they ever heard of a seasonal village celebration, and mashed it all into one holiday.

As I said he swapped them round so Bel Tine is All Saints Day which is like the Celtic Day of the Dead and Winternight is Halloween . The sit halfway to the equinox

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6 hours ago, Humbugged2 said:

As I said he swapped them round so Bel Tine is All Saints Day which is like the Celtic Day of the Dead and Winternight is Halloween . The sit halfway to the equinox

 

Except that I don't think they just swapped them.  Samhain doesn't normally include the whole "dancing on the village green" bit.  That's definitely still part of May Day.

 

It's more like they took everything they ever heard of and mashed it all together.

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37 minutes ago, Andra said:

 

Except that I don't think they just swapped them.  Samhain doesn't normally include the whole "dancing on the village green" bit.  That's definitely still part of May Day.

 

It's more like they took everything they ever heard of and mashed it all together.

No he swapped them round . Samhian is Nov, Bel tine is May and so Bel Tine becomes Nov,Sanhain is May 

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I didn't start this thread to bash the show. I will ding the show if they intended fo the attack to be on Winternight. If they did, it is a clusterf*&!

I will respect the show if they intended the attack to occur on Bel Tine to accommodate the adaptation.

 

Actually I wouldn't care if random strangers online didn't persist in referring to the "Winternight attack"

 

So... are we in agreement that in the show, BTTA is a thing?

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5 hours ago, Joe B said:

I didn't start this thread to bash the show. I will ding the show if they intended fo the attack to be on Winternight. If they did, it is a clusterf*&!

I will respect the show if they intended the attack to occur on Bel Tine to accommodate the adaptation.

 

Actually I wouldn't care if random strangers online didn't persist in referring to the "Winternight attack"

 

So... are we in agreement that in the show, BTTA is a thing?

Yep, that's a thing.

It's even mentioned later in the show as "the trollocs on Bel Tine."

 

Now if they would correct those bonus materials ...

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I always figured, from the books AND from the show, that Beltine included both Beltine 'eve' and Beltine day.  Beltine 'eve' (like Christmas eve) was also called Winternight, but it's just a specific part of Beltine, just like Christmas Eve and Christmas are considered the same event, and in my church, you can go to mass on either day and it 'counts'. 


Also, all of it, even the days before and after, can be used for a general greeting or in a general way for things like 'Merry Beltine' and 'Are they staying for Beltine', just like at Christmas time, we say 'Merry Christmas' all December long, and even a few days after, and 'Are you visiting home for Christmas' doesn't necessarily just mean 'Will you be in your house on Christmas day'.


 

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23 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

I always figured, from the books AND from the show, that Beltine included both Beltine 'eve' and Beltine day.  Beltine 'eve' (like Christmas eve) was also called Winternight, but it's just a specific part of Beltine, just like Christmas Eve and Christmas are considered the same event, and in my church, you can go to mass on either day and it 'counts'. 


Also, all of it, even the days before and after, can be used for a general greeting or in a general way for things like 'Merry Beltine' and 'Are they staying for Beltine', just like at Christmas time, we say 'Merry Christmas' all December long, and even a few days after, and 'Are you visiting home for Christmas' doesn't necessarily just mean 'Will you be in your house on Christmas day'.


 

While true, it doesn't address the question asked.  Does the show (like the book) place the attack on Winternight, or does it change it?

And in the show, not only does the attack not happen on Winternight, that word is never mentioned.

 

Using your example, if something is supposed to have happened on Christmas Eve, and is repeatedly referred to that way, then it didn't happen the night after Christmas.  This is the equivalent of placing it after all the presents are opened and all the dinner eaten, and Christmas is almost over.

 

Please note: Saying "Merry Christmas" for all of December doesn't change the date of the holiday.  And if you say "you can spend Christmas with us tomorrow" you aren't talking about any other day in December except the 25th.

Edited by Andra
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Winternight is not mentioned. In my understanding/opinion, the attack happens on Beltine. Beltine starts at Sunset on "December 24" and continues to probably Sunset "December 25th".  This is the same as the books.  The books just call Sunset "December 24" to morning "December 25" 'Winternight', which is part of Beltine.  The early part of Beltine.

If someone is saying they will spend Christmas at home, that could mean either Evening Dec 24 or Day Dec 25 or both. 

 

The attack on the Two Rivers in the Show happens on the 'Christmas Eve' part of Beltine.  I guess I don't understand the confusion.  

It's like Hannukah.  Hannukah lasts multiple days.  If something happens on the first day of Hannukah or the 5th day of Hannukah, it's still happening on Hannukah. Something can happen on 'First Night' and still be happening on Hannukah. First Night is also part of Hannukah. It's just instead of 8 days, Beltine only lasts a 'an evening + a day' and that evening is called 'Winternight' and is the first part of the Beltine celebration.

As I always understood it from the books, anyway.  It seems the show approach.

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I've alwasy enjoyed the term 12 Days of Christmas so I'd certainly not object to Bel Tine or any holiday in The Wheel of Time being a multiple day event.   

 

Interestingly enough according to the wiki:

 

It is not set to a specific date, and comes later in northern lands than in the south. So unlike Christmas Day/Eve in this way.

 

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Bel_Tine

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