How different is too different?

ArrylT · January 30, 2022

On 1/25/2022 at 4:50 AM, notpropaganda73 said:

Why is this such a common attitude amongst those critical of the show? It's exasperating.

I don't really want to go on and on about this as I've covered a lot of what I think with posts to ilovezam already. I just don't think trying to give Agelmar a more interesting slant is the crime against the novels that it is used as. It was poorly done, like practically everything in episode 8, but I don't think it fundamentally alters the Borderlands. There is plenty of scope for a nation on the front line having a leader make mistakes.

Which it could be argued Agelmar does in the books.

Not directed at @notpropaganda73 just responding off of their post.

I think it is pretty clear that a lot of people on the forums put the blame on Rafe Judkins for their dislike of the Wheel of Time show - that is their choice. However, therefore following this I think anyone who has read the beginning of the Great Hunt then has to put the failings of what happened at Fal Dara in The Great Hunt on Agelmar. Regardless of whether it was due to DarkFriends or betrayal by subordinates or so forth - using this logic - if Rafe should be turfed as Showrunner - Agelmar needed to have been turfed as a Great Captain.

Allowing a trolloc attack to reach the keep (not just the town), the loss of the Horn of Valere, a jailbreak & death of inmates, plus an apparent assassination on the Amyrlin Seat are all pretty grievous offences. On top of that - did any of the party that went out to recover the horn actually return? Yes it is a small party of 20+ Shienarans but did any of them actually ever return to Shienar?

No.

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Agelmar_Jagad

"Once the Horn is retrieved, Rand proclaims himself the Dragon Reborn and most of the Shienarans pledge themselves to him, claiming that the Dragon Reborn has freed them from their old oaths."

Only Hurin returns to Shienar, and he is not a soldier. As such basically the entire party, including the command, of a mission ordered by Agelmar never returns. So if the buck stops at the top - then this is all on Agelmar. I mean you can make an argument that a Great Captain should be able to count on his men not breaking their oaths.

All that would have spread throughout Randland over the years, and yet no one seems inclined to think that maybe just maybe Agelmar has lost his edge. And we certainly cannot blame him for being compelled during the Last Battle.

Now just to be clear, I am well aware that the events in the book are controlled by the narrator rather than Agelmar himself. I am simply treating Agelmar the way some are treating Rafe Judkins - that regardless of things outside of his control he is still at fault.

Personally I found myself liking Agelmar more in the show and feel he is better portrayed than many feel, but that is their opinion vs. mine. Btw this is NOT me saying I disliked Agelmar in the books - just that I feel his character is more one-note and mostly used for exposition (EOTW) and a foil (TGH) than a real character in of themselves. I will say though, of the 5 Great Captains, the one that seemed the most to be riding on their reputation (and this is actually mentioned in TGH that Agelmar was worried about the effect on his honour) going into TLB was Agelmar, and imho was the least deserving to have been considered a Great Captain. IE if I am a captain of a sports team Agelmar is the guy I pick last. Heck give me Pedron Niall raised from the dead over Agelmar. Pedron Niall at least is shown that he can recover from having all of his plans destroyed by outside influences (see prologue of TDR).

Anyways regardless, I completely agree - whether or not there is a real change (in my eyes there isnt) to Agelmar as a character has absolutely no impact on the culture of the Borderlands themselves. In fact I felt that the show did a great job portraying the culture & look of Fal Dara. And Ep 8 pretty much matched what was expected to happen in EOTW - remember as Rand & Moiraine and everyone were leaving to go to the Eye portions of the civilian population was evacuating the city (exactly like they did in Ep8).

Basically the only real difference (imo) of who saved the day at Tarwins Gap was a group of women with ability to access Saidar vs. a man with ability to access Saidin. All this talk about how they were untrained yet Rand was untrained ... in neither instance was Agelmar going to win the day. I rather watch him fight and kill Trollocs than die off-page (like he would have if Rand was not magically portalled to the Gap).

Btw the army at Tarwins gap had hundreds of fades (not to mention draghkar). It says so directly in EOTW. That means at a very bare minimum 200 fades. The BARE minimum. Each fade typically controls 1 fist. So that is a bare minimum of 20 000 trollocs. Do the math 200 x 100 Trollocs. But hundreds suggest multiple hundreds. So lets say 5. That is 500 x 100 which is 50 000. I guess it all depends on how many hundreds you feel are needed for the term "hundreds".

Either way the army in the book is larger than the one in the show (which depending on reliable sources was 5-10k or unreliable 10-20k). Yet I am supposed to believe that this defence of Fal Dara / Tarwins Gap by Egewene & Nynaeve in the show, is stealing thunder from Rand in the books - when he did it basically unknowingly and with zero training, while they did it linked, and with a woman who had Aceepted level training. Yawn not buying it.

MasterAblar · January 31, 2022

I don't know about stealing anyone's thunder or anything. I think the battle sucked but didn't have anything to do with the women being there instead of Rand.

That said I think comparing what Rand does to what other people do is problematic. As the Dragon Reborn and the strongest taveren, and the wall between him and LTT starting to fall in tSR at the latest, he pulls off stuff aboslutely no channeller as a right to untrained. He really shouldn't be used as a baseline for what an untrained channeller is capable of.

expat · January 31, 2022

Quote

After everything they did in season 1 to our characters, world, story and magic system why would I want to watch season 2?

Isn't this the real problem? They are Robert Jordon's characters, world, story and magic system. They are not the fans. While I enjoyed reading the books, I had nothing to do with their writing, so I have no personal stake in them. I can enjoy (or not) the TV series, but again, I had nothing to do with the series, so I have no personal stake in it. In my opinion (you can certainly disagree), when individuals start personalizing the books in such a fashion to say unapologetically "our characters ...", then they are too close to the material which could affect their judgement.

Andra · January 31, 2022

1 hour ago, expat said:

Isn't this the real problem? They are Robert Jordon's characters, world, story and magic system. They are not the fans. While I enjoyed reading the books, I had nothing to do with their writing, so I have no personal stake in them. I can enjoy (or not) the TV series, but again, I had nothing to do with the series, so I have no personal stake in it. In my opinion (you can certainly disagree), when individuals start personalizing the books in such a fashion to say unapologetically "our characters ...", then they are too close to the material which could affect their judgement.

Except it's not all that unusual.

In fact, it's not too far out of line to say that considering them "our characters, etc." is the entire point of this very website. It's a kind of community, which the members continue in some way to be "theirs."

It doesn't necessarily imply a feeling of ownership, just of fellowship.

Do we imply ownership when we talk about "our friends?"

Edited January 31, 2022 by Andra

expat · January 31, 2022

Quote

In fact, it's not too far out of line to say that considering them "our characters, etc." is the entire point of this very website. It's a kind of community, which the members continue in some way to be "theirs."

There is a very fine line between community and ownership. Reading through many of these threads, I got the distinct feeling that some of the criticism slid over the edge into ownership.

A good example is sports. We all know people that take it far too seriously and identify far too much with their teams. In my case, I root for the Browns and would love them to win the SB. For the typical fan, there is one of two reactions: (1) Yea, my team won the SB and (2) We won the SB. The first is community, the second is ownership.

A better example might be religion. Arguing religion is a losing proposition because people take it as a personal attack questioning their deepest beliefs and refuse to engage.

Deviations · January 31, 2022

20 minutes ago, expat said:

There is a very fine line between community and ownership. Reading through many of these threads, I got the distinct feeling that some of the criticism slid over the edge into ownership.

A good example is sports. We all know people that take it far too seriously and identify far too much with their teams. In my case, I root for the Browns and would love them to win the SB. For the typical fan, there is one of two reactions: (1) Yea, my team won the SB and (2) We won the SB. The first is community, the second is ownership.

Don't we all drift back and forth here? I've been a Vikings fan since I was four. There were seasons when a loss felt like someone close to me died. Others where I never did more than watch a few taped games.

I think that's beside the point here however. Literature allows us to experience something through the experience of reading another person's story (or by expressing our own). We are meant to have an emotional reaction to it. We are meant to become friends with the characters, become enemies with the antagonists. Each of us 'owns' those feelings and the relationships we form with those people (imaginary as they are).

In the case of this series, 'my friends' were unrecognizable, and the people they put in my friends places were not likable to me.

Cauthonfan4 · January 31, 2022

11 hours ago, expat said:

? They are Robert Jordon's characters, world, story and magic system

And the TV show looks nothing like his story so maybe they should change the name.

Entire characters are changed, the world cultures are non existent, and the magic system is gone as well.

You want to talk about ownership still?

Or maybe stop trying to change something into what it's not. Advice rafe could take as well.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

Andra · January 31, 2022

2 hours ago, expat said:

There is a very fine line between community and ownership. Reading through many of these threads, I got the distinct feeling that some of the criticism slid over the edge into ownership.

A good example is sports. We all know people that take it far too seriously and identify far too much with their teams. In my case, I root for the Browns and would love them to win the SB. For the typical fan, there is one of two reactions: (1) Yea, my team won the SB and (2) We won the SB. The first is community, the second is ownership.

A better example might be religion. Arguing religion is a losing proposition because people take it as a personal attack questioning their deepest beliefs and refuse to engage.

I think you underestimate the number of people that feel that way about their sports teams. I believe it's more the norm among actual fans, rather than some kind of outlier. Nor is it in any way a recent development. In fact, the feeling is so prevalent that one NFL team took it literally, and made the fans the actual owners of the team.

I have no reason to expect something like this to be any different than for most teams (besides the Packers).

Any endeavor that depends on fans for its financial survival (sports teams, religions, book and TV series, etc.) builds that kind of emotional attachment by design. It's unrealistic to expect those who have developed the intended attachment to ignore drastic changes to what they're attached to.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Andra

Cauthonfan4 · January 31, 2022

3 minutes ago, Andra said:

It's unrealistic to expect those who have developed the intended attachment to ignore drastic changes to what they're attached to.

Rafe at least understands this, because he even said he expects book fans to be upset.

VooDooNut · January 31, 2022

Ah, sportsball: The cesspool of society's subconscious.(sorry, not sorry)

To continue @expat's point...

We are observers of the WOT TV series, just like we are observers (readers) of Robert Jordan's Wheel Of Time book series, or fans of sportsball. It would be outside of our responsibilities as readers to tell Robert Jordan how to write his books, other than through public reaction (not dictation) as post-release feedback.

It would be wrong for any of us to storm the field and (attempt to) replace one of the professional sportsball players or try and replace the coach's strategy. Robert Jordan, or Rafe Jenkins, or Coach Sportsball still has the responsibility/choice to consider (but not acquiesce to!) feedback when producing future episodes, or coaching future games.

It's simply not our job, or our role, in consuming this entertainment no matter how attached to our mind's imagination of the story we are. So it's not MY story. It's my interpretation of The Wheel Of Time, written by Robert Jordan. It's not MY show with MY characters, it's my reaction to Rafe&Co's choices when adapting Robert Jordan's WOT epic fantasy series to the screen. It's not MY sportsball team. The players and the coach are the ones actually doing the work.

Cauthonfan4 · January 31, 2022

11 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

It would be outside of our responsibilities as readers to tell Robert Jordan how to write his books, other than through public reaction (not dictation) as post-release feedback.

tell that to Rafe then, who literally said he'd write the show how Robert would write it today.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

Andra · January 31, 2022

26 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

Robert Jordan, or Rafe Jenkins, or Coach Sportsball still has the responsibility/choice to consider (but not acquiesce to!) feedback when producing future episodes, or coaching future games.

Do you really think Rafe has ever done anything like that?

He has repeatedly refused to consider any feedback whatsoever from the fans on whose existence the franchise depended. Hell, he has repeatedly said that he intended to alienate them.

The fans (without whom there would have been no series for him to "adapt") have earned the right to be upset at his unnecessary changes. And at him ignoring their criticism of those changes.

Coach Sportsball has been fired for significantly less than this.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Andra

Cauthonfan4 · January 31, 2022

5 minutes ago, Andra said:

Do you really think Rafe has ever done anything like that?

Considering Rafe is doing literally what voodoo said we as fans don't get to do?

5 minutes ago, Andra said:

Hell, he has repeatedly said that he intended to alienate them.

which is the sad thing because it was literally the fans who wanted this show for so long, and pushed for it, and instead of catering to those fans who spent so much time pushing for the show, he caters to other people instead. makes absolutely no sense. I'll literally never endorse another Rafe show because of this and frankly I don't know how he can consider himself a fan after everything he's done.

he's literally and intentionally alienated the fans (admitted by his own words), threw out the source material to push his own agenda (admitted by his own words), and then refuses to budge despite literally writing the WORST episode in the entire season.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

VooDooNut · January 31, 2022

5 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

tell that to Rafe then, who literally said he'd write the show how Robert would write it today.

He can't write the show how Robert Jordan would have written it, because he isn't Robert Jordan. If he said this, I'd argue he misspoke, but I'm unfamiliar with the specific quote. Now, for Rafe's televised adaptation of Robert Jordan's WOT, he can certainly try to reflect Jordan's style, based on Rafe's own interpretation of the WOT series, but it's still an interpretation.

3 minutes ago, Andra said:

Do you really think Rafe has ever done anything like that?

He has repeatedly refused to consider any feedback whatsoever from the fans on whose existence the franchise depended. Hell, he has repeatedly said that he intended to alienate them.

The fans (without whom there would have been no series for him to "adapt") have earned the right to be upset at his unnecessary changes. And at him ignoring their criticism of those changes.

Coach Sportsball has been fired for significantly less than this.

Yes, and I agree that the show, or the book series, or the sportsball is still dependent on funding to continue. If it turns out that the show suffers from a lack of funding, it will end. It's still ultimately the production's responsibility to develop the show in the most successful way they see fit. It will live or die by their design.

Cauthonfan4 · January 31, 2022

11 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

He can't write the show how Robert Jordan would have written it, because he isn't Robert Jordan

no he said "I'm going to write the show how Robert would have written it today". so basically he's saying this is what Robert should have done. which is exactly what you just said us fans can't do, Tell the author how to write it. as if Rafe could even hold a candle to Robert Jordan. Even as confusing as the end of EotW was, Rafe did an even worse job.

11 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

he can certainly try to reflect Jordan's style, based on Rafe's own interpretation of the WOT series, but it's still an interpretation.

If you consider this an interpretation...

11 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

It will live or die by their design.

considering season 1 got a 7.2 and that was with book fans willing to give it a shot? and they just alienated a lot of them and even pushed away a bunch of other people I doubt the show does well going forward.

Funny how Game of Thrones kept the fans in the loop and did really really well for the first 4 seasons and got plenty of post show book sales as well...

for a show that was supposed to be "Amazons Game of Thrones" they sure don't think like Game of Thrones did.

I don't even get why he went out of his way to alienate the target audience. Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

VooDooNut · January 31, 2022

4 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

no he said "I'm going to write the show how Robert would have written it today". so basically he's saying this is what Robert should have done. which is exactly what you just said us fans can't do, Tell the author how to write it. as if Rafe could even hold a candle to Robert Jordan.

If you consider this an interpretation...

considering season 1 got a 7.2 and that was with book fans willing to give it a shot? and they just alienated a lot of them and even pushed away a bunch of other people I doubt the show does well going forward.

Funny how Game of Thrones kept the fans in the loop and did really really well for the first 4 seasons and got plenty of post show book sales as well...

for a show that was supposed to be "Amazons Game of Thrones" they sure don't think like Game of Thrones did.

I don't even get why he went out of his way to alienate the target audience. Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

To your first point, like I said, I agree that Rafe cannot be Robert Jordan. His adaptation of Robert's series is his own. The success of this TV show adaptation rests with Rafe&Co. But I'm not worried. I enjoyed season 1. I felt the actors especially did a superb job and are dedicated to their craft. I look forward to watching season 2.

To your second point, time will tell. Or, in other words, WAFO. :tongue:

Cauthonfan4 · January 31, 2022

8 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

I felt the actors especially did a superb job and are dedicated to their craft. I look forward to watching season 2.

And thats the crux of the issue. the Actors are what is carrying the show right now. it certainly isn't the writing. Nothing Rafe is doing is what is carrying the show. imagine how much better we have without RAFE AND CO.

8 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

To your second point, time will tell. Or, in other words, WAFO.

why would i watch it? it's literally already alienated me with all the changes that didn't need to happen, with the lack of development of the characters, and with the changes to the magic system and world that didn't need to happen. and that's saying something because book 1 was light on the development of all 3. I feel absolutely no desire to help a show I didn't ask for Succeed.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

VooDooNut · January 31, 2022

Just now, Cauthonfan4 said:

And thats the crux of the issue. the Actors are what is carrying the show right now. it certainly isn't the writing. Nothing Rafe is doing is what is carrying the show. imagine how much better we have without RAFE AND CO.

why would i watch it? it's literally already alienated me with all the changes that didn't need to happen, with the lack of development of the characters, and with the changes to the magic system and world that didn't need to happen. and that's saying something because book 1 was light on the development of all 3.

That's fine too. I merely meant I am enjoying the show. I am looking forward to season 2.

Andra · January 31, 2022

20 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

He can't write the show how Robert Jordan would have written it, because he isn't Robert Jordan. If he said this, I'd argue he misspoke, but I'm unfamiliar with the specific quote. Now, for Rafe's televised adaptation of Robert Jordan's WOT, he can certainly try to reflect Jordan's style, based on Rafe's own interpretation of the WOT series, but it's still an interpretation.

The specific statement from Rafe that I'm aware of is in the context of the way 21st century feminism and gender equality differ from those of the early 1990s. Rafe said that, for its time, Jordan's work was pretty feminist. But that he would write it differently today, and that Rafe intends to correct that.

25 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

If it turns out that the show suffers from a lack of funding, it will end. It's still ultimately the production's responsibility to develop the show in the most successful way they see fit. It will live or die by their design.

But the issue isn't about ending it by killing its funding. It's about SAVING it by listening to feedback from the fans, so that never happens.

Cauthonfan4 · January 31, 2022

4 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

I merely meant I am enjoying the show. I am looking forward to season 2.

and yet from what i can see, a large portion of the book fans aren't, and are ready to check out on season 2. It makes zero sense to alienate your target audience in order to bring in a new audience. you can do both just fine. look at Game of Thrones. Football is attempting to bring in younger viewers as well but it isn't alienating the major fan base in its decision to do so either.

4 minutes ago, Andra said:

Rafe said that, for its time, Jordan's work was pretty feminist. But that he would write it differently today, and that Rafe intends to correct that.

which is false. WoT is pretty feminist even by todays standards.

Jake Sykwalker · January 31, 2022

36 minutes ago, Andra said:

Coach Sportsball has been fired for significantly less than this.

There are something like 9 sportsball coaches looking for jobs right now? In sportsball they expect results. Amazon seems to be different. I have a former employee who works there now. I should as him how things work with accountability.

VooDooNut · January 31, 2022

8 minutes ago, Andra said:

But the issue isn't about ending it by killing its funding. It's about SAVING it by listening to feedback from the fans, so that never happens.

Sure, I hear that. But it's still up to the artist to decide how they will craft their work and to decide which feedback they want to consider (if any). Obliviously there are many differing opinions on this forum alone. Who's feedback should be considered the most important? Mine? Yours?

Cauthonfan4 · January 31, 2022

4 minutes ago, Jake Sykwalker said:

There are something like 9 sportsball coaches looking for jobs right now? In sportsball they expect results.

i mean to be fair - season 1 got results (at least in viewer minutes), but how much of those results will carry over after all the people season 1 alienated don't watch season 2?

Cauthonfan4 · January 31, 2022

3 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

Who's feedback should be considered the most important? Mine? Yours?

How about we start with why Rafe thinks it was okay to rewrite the story in the first place? the original argument was that fans can't provide the author feedback on how to write it, but Rafe seems to have no problem with telling Robert what Robert should do (provided Robert was still alive). IMO what he has done seems very disrespectful.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

Andra · January 31, 2022

1 minute ago, VooDooNut said:

Sure, I hear that. But it's still up to the artist to decide how they will craft their work and to decide which feedback they want to consider (if any). Obliviously there are many differing opinions on this forum alone. Who's feedback should be considered the most important? Mine? Yours?

It's a moot point, since he hasn't listened to ANYONE'S feedback - mine, yours, or any other fan's.

How different is too different?

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