How different is too different?

[Lethira the second]

  On 1/26/2022 at 2:55 PM, Deviations said:

It was a weak solution.  Actors abound.  They could have plugged and played pretty easily.  How many did they interview initially?  One of those could have stepped into the breach.

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Not defending it, I'm pointing out that it was not a decision made by the writing team to have Mat not go through the waygate. 

[Humbugged2]

  On 1/26/2022 at 2:55 PM, Deviations said:

It was a weak solution.  Actors abound.  They could have plugged and played pretty easily.  How many did they interview initially?  One of those could have stepped into the breach.

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He quit/was fired after 6 episodes

 

There was no way to do the entire season again as EF was burned down ,Braem was removed ,and all the other actors were off doing other work 

 

So how were they to get somebody to step in ? They have a replacement that starts next year

[DaddyFinn]

  On 1/26/2022 at 2:55 PM, Deviations said:

It was a weak solution.  Actors abound.  They could have plugged and played pretty easily.  How many did they interview initially?  One of those could have stepped into the breach.

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So you would have preferred the actor swap to have happened during season 1? That would have allowed them to film the original script but it would have also been.. weird. I have no idea which I like the best. It depends how they handle the swap on S2.

[Katherine]

The actor leaving was a problem to which there was no elegant solution. 

 

Perhaps talented, experienced writers could have managed the problem better.... but honestly who knows.

[Gothic Flame]

  On 1/26/2022 at 3:05 PM, Katherine said:

Mat spends quite a lot of time avoiding Rand and trying to stay away from him and everything that has to do with the Dragon.

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But he never leaves him...until Rand either leaves him or orders him. He was there in the Waste, and despite the dangers, went with him to Rhuidean. A constant presence until told to go and find "Miss Prim" and not to leave her side until he escorts her "well rounded bottom" to the throne of Andor.

 

He always says a lot of...stuff, run away, get away, and never does. But once he gives his word...he keeps it.

[Skipp]

  On 1/26/2022 at 4:10 PM, Gothic Flame said:

But he never leaves him...until Rand either leaves him or orders him. He was there in the Waste, and despite the dangers, went with him to Rhuidean. A constant presence until told to go and find "Miss Prim" and not to leave her side until he escorts her "well rounded bottom" to the throne of Andor.

 

He always says a lot of...stuff, run away, get away, and never does. But once he gives his word...he keeps it.

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Mat is with Rand at that point because he was told he had to go to Rhuidean or else he would die.  I don't doubt Mat's friendship in tSR but lets not pretend that he didn't have other motivations at that time.

 

And he did try to leave Rand after tSR but a mixture of Ta'vereness and his own ideals always stopped him.  Only after the battle of Caerhein did Rand put his foot down and told Mat he wasn't going to be able to leave.

[Humbugged2]

  On 1/26/2022 at 4:10 PM, Gothic Flame said:

But he never leaves him...until Rand either leaves him or orders him. He was there in the Waste, and despite the dangers, went with him to Rhuidean. A constant presence until told to go and find "Miss Prim" and not to leave her side until he escorts her "well rounded bottom" to the throne of Andor.

 

He always says a lot of...stuff, run away, get away, and never does. But once he gives his word...he keeps it.

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because he was told he would die in he did not go and find the other doorway

[Katherine]

  On 1/26/2022 at 4:10 PM, Gothic Flame said:

But he never leaves him...until Rand either leaves him or orders him. He was there in the Waste, and despite the dangers, went with him to Rhuidean. A constant presence until told to go and find "Miss Prim" and not to leave her side until he escorts her "well rounded bottom" to the throne of Andor.

 

He always says a lot of...stuff, run away, get away, and never does. But once he gives his word...he keeps it.

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Which is why we love him. 

 

But again let's be honest. He didn't go to Rhuidean for Rand, he went because he was told to by the foxes (snakes? can't remember who he saw first)  in spite of being with Rand. 

 

HE tries to run away from battles.... but Rand's Taveren nature pulls his back as much as his inner sense of loyality. 

 

He is the very archetype of a reluctant hero. 

[Katherine]

  On 1/26/2022 at 4:18 PM, Skipp said:

Mat is with Rand at that point because he was told he had to go to Rhuidean or else he would die.  I don't doubt Mat's friendship in tSR but lets not pretend that he didn't have other motivations at that time.

 

And he did try to leave Rand after tSR but a mixture of Ta'vereness and his own ideals always stopped him.  Only after the battle of Caerhein did Rand put his foot down and told Mat he wasn't going to be able to leave.

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jinx ?

[Gothic Flame]

  On 1/26/2022 at 4:26 PM, Katherine said:

HE tries to run away from battles.... but Rand's Taveren nature pulls his back as much as his inner sense of loyality. 

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I can roll with that. A pity Rafe won't.

And just for fun:

 

Good morrow, High Lord Weiramon, and all you other High Lords and Ladies. I'm a gambler, a farmboy, and I'm here to take command of your bloody army! The bloody lord Dragon Reborn will be with us as soon as he flaming takes care of one bloody little matter!

[Juan Farstrider]

  On 1/26/2022 at 9:06 AM, notpropaganda73 said:

 

 

You are calling me purposefully obtuse but frankly I think you're being purposefully adversarial. Being honest it's felt a little out of nowhere and gone from a disagreement about Agelmar to now being told I ignore anything that doesn't fit with a notion that the show was well done. I repeat - have you read any of my posts about the show?

 

To take a step back for a moment, you quoted me saying that I think it would be a more interesting dynamic if the Borderlands were not a monolith of wise flawless leaders who were respectful of Aes Sedai. You said that the culture of the Borderlands being on the frontlines creates those traits. I said I didn't understand how the culture has been changed in the show. You then tell me I'm ignoring things because it doesn't fit with how I feel about the show. And so here we are sniping back and forth.

 

ilovezam and I talked a little about it as well in between posts. I even said I agree with their wider points about Agelmar in the show? So how am I ignoring other perspectives?! Honestly, am I going mad? If I'm coming across as someone refusing alternate perspectives or as someone who loves the show unconditionally, then please make that clear by quoting where that is coming across, because it's not my intention. I've gained a lot from reading perspectives on the show that I disagree with from this board. I'd even say that my general optimism for S2 has dimmed quite a bit since the finale from reading others' well reasoned criticisms on here.

 

Again, I don't understand the needless adversarial nature of your post. 

 

 

I didn't say I found him interesting. I said I can understand trying to give Agelmar a different slant to try and make him more interesting. Even if he is laughably bad as commander and leader, in the context of a nation on the frontline, that could make for interesting dynamics. Much like Denethor or Theoden being blind to the problems facing them until it's almost too late. Having a nation that faces the threat of the DO on a daily basis being less welcoming of Aes Sedai could make for interesting dynamics. However, as I've said ad nauseum, the show has not explored this in any depth so it hasn't worked. 

 

Once more, I didn't like what we got in the end with Agelmar. So no, I wasn't glad - but that doesn't mean I don't think the core idea was bad. This gets back to something I've said repeatedly as well, most of my issues with the show I think come down to bad writing, rather than bad ideas. 

 

Hopefully I've been clear here but honestly, can I ask you to stop telling me I'm being obtuse or ignorant or whatever else? It's needless and gets my back up, so I end up snapping back. If I've said something that has gotten yours up, then I'm sorry, it's not my intention.

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Let me get this straight: you're not talking about what WAS, but what COULD HAVE BEEN, not what they presented but what they might have intended to present, not that what they did was interesting but that it might have been interesting. You're talking about not what the show did either by intention or not, but what it might have intended to do.  I'm sorry for wasting your time, because I can't possible discuss that. But, I hope you can see that if this is what you're talking about, how impossible or at least frustrating that must be to discuss. Sorry, I'll leave you alone to defend the show based on what they might have intended. 

[Andra]

  On 1/26/2022 at 4:18 PM, Skipp said:

Mat is with Rand at that point because he was told he had to go to Rhuidean or else he would die.  I don't doubt Mat's friendship in tSR but lets not pretend that he didn't have other motivations at that time.

 

And he did try to leave Rand after tSR but a mixture of Ta'vereness and his own ideals always stopped him.  Only after the battle of Caerhein did Rand put his foot down and told Mat he wasn't going to be able to leave.

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But the only reason he knew he had to go to Rhuidean or die is because he didn't leave Tear when he could have.  Leaving Rand after discussing it with him and basically getting his permission is not "abandoning" him.

 

Having other motivations doesn't change what he actually did.

And his "ideals" preventing him from leaving is the entire point.

 

Book Mat had those ideals.  Show Mat apparently doesn't.

[Skipp]

  On 1/26/2022 at 7:26 PM, Andra said:

But the only reason he knew he had to go to Rhuidean or die is because he didn't leave Tear when he could have.  Leaving Rand after discussing it with him and basically getting his permission is not "abandoning" him.

 

Having other motivations doesn't change what he actually did.

And his "ideals" preventing him from leaving is the entire point.

 

Book Mat had those ideals.  Show Mat apparently doesn't.

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I never said Mat abandons Rand in tFoH, I only used that term in relation to the event in tGH.  I just said he attempts to leave at that time. 

 

I only brought it up in response to Gothic saying "But he never leaves him...until Rand either leaves him or orders him. "

[Andra]

  On 1/26/2022 at 8:05 PM, Skipp said:

I never said Mat abandons Rand in tFoH, I only used that term in relation to the event in tGH.  I just said he attempts to leave at that time. 

 

I only brought it up in response to Gothic saying "But he never leaves him...until Rand either leaves him or orders him. "

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I didn't say you did.

My point was that the things that prevent him from leaving - even though he kept saying he wanted to - applied during the Great Hunt as well.  Including his "ideals."

 

Book Mat had ideals that precluded him abandoning his friends.  Even in tGH.

Show Mat apparently doesn't.

[Katherine]

  On 1/26/2022 at 7:26 PM, Andra said:

But the only reason he knew he had to go to Rhuidean or die is because he didn't leave Tear when he could have.  Leaving Rand after discussing it with him and basically getting his permission is not "abandoning" him.

 

Having other motivations doesn't change what he actually did.

And his "ideals" preventing him from leaving is the entire point.

 

Book Mat had those ideals.  Show Mat apparently doesn't.

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You are absolutely correct that show Matt is more of a low life than book Mat. I’m just trying to point out that we don’t have to pretend that book met with a saint in order to dislike the changes that were made in the showI’m just trying to point out that we don’t have to pretend that book met with a saint in order to dislike the changes that were made in the show

[Pukel-man]

  On 1/25/2022 at 9:13 PM, Skipp said:

 Harry Potter; first 2 films follow the books very closely and are also the worst films of the series.  Massive changes to stories and characters starting in Azkaban.

 

Lotr;  Major changes to the characters of Aragorn, Arwen, Faramir.  Large story threads dropped or rewritten.   How did Merry come to have a weapon that could hurt the Witchking?

 

Hunger Games; Major story elements added into the movies that were not in the books. Several character combined and shifted around. Movies 2-4 had plotlines changed

 

GoT;  Didn't watch past Season 4/5 or read past book 4 and my memory of them isn't great so no further comment.

 

I also really enjoyed the Books and Movies for HP, LotR and Hunger Games.  Happily have them all in my collection

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This proves my point quite well. Major changes, but not the the basic elements of the story. The major plot points, and the central story is intact in every one of those examples you cited. The changes at the margins did not alter the story enough to put off the vast majority of fans.  (I can't actually speak to Hunger Games, since I have no recollection of the movies.)

 

That's not the case with WoT. We knew the changes were going to be major, and Brandon Sanderson even warned people that it would not be Robert Jordan's story, but Rafe's. So it is. Unlike those other examples, WoT is not an adaptation of the book with some changes, it's a new story based on the book. Rafe's WoT is more like Peter Jackson's Hobbit, which was lambasted by all the book fans, unlike the LOTR adaptation.

[Gothic Flame]

Hmf...no one bothers to remember how lauded the first Harry Potter movie was by fans of the book. And it was so because of its exactness to the book.

[Vartija]

Now that it's been brought up, I have to admit Mat's initial reaction to Rand being able to channel was one reason I soured on him as a character, and why he's never been as big a favourite of mine as he seems to be to most readers. On my latest re-read I really started to doubt how deep their friendship really was. Obviously Rand wasn't the easiest person to be around when his madness started to effect him, but still it seemed to me Mat went to great lengths to get away from him, and he seemed to be warier than others of being around him. If not for the ta'veren effect drawing him to Rand I got the impression he would have been quite fine with "abandoning" him.   

[SingleMort]

  On 1/27/2022 at 4:16 PM, Vartija said:

Now that it's been brought up, I have to admit Mat's initial reaction to Rand being able to channel was one reason I soured on him as a character, and why he's never been as big a favourite of mine as he seems to be to most readers. On my latest re-read I really started to doubt how deep their friendship really was. Obviously Rand wasn't the easiest person to be around when his madness started to effect him, but still it seemed to me Mat went to great lengths to get away from him, and he seemed to be warier than others of being around him. If not for the ta'veren effect drawing him to Rand I got the impression he would have been quite fine with "abandoning" him.   

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Mat doesn't hate Rand he's afraid of what he can do. Mat cares about all his friends he even trades one of his eyes for them. Mat is simply afraid of what Rand can do and that he could go insane. Mat is also extremely wary of any Aes Sedai and magic as he see that as the cause of his problems with the dice and his endless memories of death. It should also be noted that Rand is not exactly blameless in bumps in the road of their friendship. He orders Mat and Perrin around like a king ordering a general and uses them as tools to fix problems that cause them much distress often with little to no reward or thanks.

Edited January 27, 2022 by SingleMort

[Gothic Flame]

  On 1/27/2022 at 4:16 PM, Vartija said:

Now that it's been brought up, I have to admit Mat's initial reaction to Rand being able to channel was one reason I soured on him as a character, and why he's never been as big a favourite of mine as he seems to be to most readers. On my latest re-read I really started to doubt how deep their friendship really was. Obviously Rand wasn't the easiest person to be around when his madness started to effect him, but still it seemed to me Mat went to great lengths to get away from him, and he seemed to be warier than others of being around him. If not for the ta'veren effect drawing him to Rand I got the impression he would have been quite fine with "abandoning" him.   

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You should recall how villified men that could channel were. Even those that were decent men at first. The mention of one man who woke up one morning and realized he sleep-channeled and flattened his whole village.

[Vartija]

  On 1/27/2022 at 4:57 PM, Gothic Flame said:

You should recall how villified men that could channel were. Even those that were decent men at first. The mention of one man who woke up one morning and realized he sleep-channeled and flattened his whole village.

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True enough, but his first reaction and subsequent unease of being around him in the later books still seemed kind of unfriendly to me. Not exactly a shoulder to lean on so to speak. I remember Mat spending a lot of time worrying about being away from Rand "when he goes crazy". Maybe I overestimated their initial level of friendship in the beginning of the series, but as Mat said something really seemed to change in their relationship when they found out Rand could channel. Perrin seemed to handle it much better. 

[Katherine]

  On 1/27/2022 at 4:57 PM, Gothic Flame said:

You should recall how villified men that could channel were. Even those that were decent men at first. The mention of one man who woke up one morning and realized he sleep-channeled and flattened his whole village.

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Excellent point. Mat, as a character, did a lot for the plot in this respect. That even good friends found male channlers an abberation. 

[Andra]

  On 1/27/2022 at 4:57 PM, Gothic Flame said:

You should recall how villified men that could channel were. Even those that were decent men at first. The mention of one man who woke up one morning and realized he sleep-channeled and flattened his whole village.

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And that was a story told to Mat (and Rand) directly.

Which is why that very night that he learned Rand could channel he decided to sleep on the other side of camp.

 

It's funny because, with this talk about "abandonment" it's actually PERRIN who left.

[Andra]

  On 1/27/2022 at 5:55 PM, Vartija said:

True enough, but his first reaction and subsequent unease of being around him in the later books still seemed kind of unfriendly to me. Not exactly a shoulder to lean on so to speak. I remember Mat spending a lot of time worrying about being away from Rand "when he goes crazy". Maybe I overestimated their initial level of friendship in the beginning of the series, but as Mat said something really seemed to change in their relationship when they found out Rand could channel. Perrin seemed to handle it much better. 

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Perrin avoided him at least as much as Mat did.  Hell, he was even the one who left in Tear.

It's just that, given the differences in their personalities, Perrin was less vocal about it.

 

 

 

This wasn't a "Mat thing" - it was a "fear of male channelers thing."

Edited January 27, 2022 by Andra

[Gothic Flame]

  On 1/27/2022 at 5:55 PM, Vartija said:

True enough, but his first reaction and subsequent unease of being around him in the later books still seemed kind of unfriendly to me. Not exactly a shoulder to lean on so to speak.

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Consider the bragging contest they had in front of Tuon in the last book.

  Quote

Here we go", Mat said with a sigh. "You’ve pulled me into trouble again. You always do this".

"I do?"

"Yes. In Rhuidean and the Waste, in the Stone of Tear . . . back in the Two Rivers. You do realize that I went south, instead of coming to your little party with Egwene in Merrilor, to escape?"

"You think you could stay away from me?" Rand asked, smiling. "You really think it would let you?"

"I could bloody try. No offense, Rand, but you’re going to go mad and all. I figured I’d give you one less friend nearby to kill. You know, save you some trouble. What did you do to your hand, by the way?"

"What did you do to your eye?"

"A little accident with a corkscrew and thirteen angry innkeepers. The hand?"

"Lost it capturing one of the Forsaken".

"Capturing?" Mat said. "You’re growing soft".

Rand snorted. "Tell me you’ve done better".

"I killed a gholam", Mat said.

"I freed Illian from Sammael".

"I married the Empress of the Seanchan".

"Mat", Rand said, "are you really trying to get into a bragging contest with the Dragon Reborn?" He paused for a moment. "Besides, I cleansed saidin. I win".

"Ah, that’s not really worth much", Mat said.

"Not worth much? It’s the single most important event to happen since the Breaking".

"Bah. You and your Asha’man are already crazy", Mat said, "so what does it matter?" He glanced to the side. "You look nice, by the way. You’ve been taking better care of yourself lately".

"So you do care", Rand said.

"Of course I do", Mat grumbled, looking back at Tuon. "I mean, you have to keep yourself alive, right? Go have your little duel with the Dark One and keep us all safe? It’s good to know you’re looking up to it".

"That’s nice to hear", Rand said, smiling. "No wisecracks about my nice coat?"

"What? Wisecracks? You aren’t still sore because I teased you a little a couple of years ago?"

"Teased?" Rand said. "You spent weeks refusing to talk to me".

"Here now", Mat said. "It wasn’t all that bad. I remember that part easily".

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