Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[DaddyFinn]

29 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Note there are no tears at all

This makes Daniel's acting even more impressive. He absolutely nailed that scene. ?

[Elder_Haman]

14 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Wood the book Lan have represented everyone's emotion at a funeral?

Why not? What would prevent book Lan from performing his ceremonial obligations at a service for the death of his friend?

[expat]

Quote

Wood the book Lan have represented everyone's emotion at a funeral?  Don't think so.

Why not?  It's a ritual for a reason.  How many people have attended a funeral where someone is required to speak of the deceased while knowing that they didn't get along?  The person says something neutral or good, not a rant on how lousy the deceased was.  We know that these ritual speeches have little or nothing to do with the person's true feelings.

 

Along these lines, I once attended a West End (London version of Broadway) Shakespearean parody with an improv element. I am as introverted and shy as anyone posting in this forum.  I got dragged on stage, probably because I looked the most discomforted of the people in the front few rows when they announced they wanted a "volunteer" to come on stage.  While my strong preference was to not go on stage or do as little as possible on stage, for the next 2 minutes I did my required part in a very overt, over-the-top manner because this is what the performers and audience wanted/expected.

 

Lan performing the funeral ritual fits into this pattern and is not a reflection on his true character.

[Deviations]

Until the very end of the entire story, he wouldn't let people acknowledge him as King nor follow him.

[Maximillion]

14 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Why not? What would prevent book Lan from performing his ceremonial obligations at a service for the death of his friend?

 

Where was that ceremony in the books?

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, Deviations said:

Until the very end of the entire story, he wouldn't let people acknowledge him as King nor follow him.

What does that have to do with participating in a funeral ceremony for a friend?

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, Maximillion said:

Where was that ceremony in the books?

Is this meant to be some sort of 'gotcha' question? It wasn't in the books. So what?

[Yojimbo]

1 hour ago, Maximillion said:

 

I think if they just portrayed Lan's character as in the books it would have been great.  Nothing wrong with that at all and very much adaptable to the screen.

Lan is a guarded and stoic individual. He does not give much away.  He is ready to act when required and doesn't give in to emotional responses.  This does not make him one dimensional at all.  In fact, by TGH, he is already started to show that he cares for others besides Moiraine,  Teaching Rand swordsmanship but also gently advising him and guiding him on his meeting with the AS.  You get to know him and if he likes and respects you, you work your way into his inner circle.  MANY people are like this today.  It's quite a common trait and the pay off showing character interactions that break down his stoicism and unlock his respect and friendship could have been great.

Instead, we get Rafe Judkins cookie cutter - and deluded - view of what a man should be.

Turning Lan into a blubbering emotional wreck and largely incompetent is THE worst thing about the entire adaptation in my view - even worse than #badass Nynaeve,

I mostly agree here.   Lan is one of my major grievances with the show.  However, I am not sure I would go as far as calling him an emotional wreck.   I hate how easily he was snuck up upon and had a knife put to his throat.  I hate the "lounging around the campfire telling stories and laughing with the guys" scene about his lousy horsemanship.  I found that final scene to be almost comic in its awfulness and completely unnecessary.   I didn't find it to be very good acting. Sorry, just my opinion.  

 

 I would much prefer a subtler indication of his softening; a raised eyebrow here, a wry grin there, a brief scene where he defends the EF's to Moiraine, a small flash of anger there.   A good actor needn't scream and rend his clothes to tell us he is grieving.   Especially one who we know has spent an entire lifetime putting up walls; walls that his interactions with the EF's (especially Nynaeve) slowly erode.   They just again seem in such a GD rush to get from point A to point Z in their character arcs.   

[Maximillion]

Just now, Elder_Haman said:

Is this meant to be some sort of 'gotcha' question? It wasn't in the books. So what?

 

So what?  So, it's irrelevant to pin his out of character portrayal on ceremonial duty when the actual ceremony is not part of the actual story too.  He could be portrayed dancing around in pink stilettos as a ceremony and the rationale could be the same - oh it was ceremonial duty.

 

Every single one of the character misrepresentations is explained in the same way - ah but it 'could' have happened.  Well, yeah - everything 'could' happen.  Still doesn't make the portrayal anything other than betrayal of his book character.

 

 

 

 

[Maximillion]

10 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

What does that have to do with participating in a funeral ceremony for a friend?

 

The friend was a character not in the books too.  So a friend and a ceremony not in the books so they could show Lan having an emotional episode.  Feels very contrived - especially when you consider how much time it took and that the bond between warder and Aes Sedai could be easily explained in other less time consuming ways and without altering Lan's character so substantially. 

 

It just looks like Rafe Judkins personal gratification worked into the story at the expense of far more important story threads.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Maximillion

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Yojimbo said:

I hate how easily he was snuck up upon and had a knife put to his throat.

I don't hate it, but I wish they'd taken the opportunity to highlight Lan's senses - having him notice Nynaeve before she is able to get close enough to have a knife at his throat. 

 

2 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

I hate the "lounging around the campfire telling stories and laughing with the guys" scene about his lousy horsemanship.

I don't. This seems like pretty typical banter between a group of men who spend time together. But I would have appreciated a contrary story that highlighted an impressive feat, with the 'lousy horsemanship' joke having more of a, "well he's not great at everything, remember that time..." vibe.

 

4 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

A good actor needn't scream and rend his clothes to tell us he is grieving.

But this isn't about his grief. It's about everyone else's. Henney is actually doing a really good job of subtle. They haven't built a mythos around him, and he also hasn't had a moment where he shines all by himself. That's the biggest problem, IMO. 

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, Maximillion said:

 

The friend was a character not in the books too.  So a friend and a ceremony not in the books so they could show Lan having an emotional episode.  Feels very contrived - especially when you consider how much time it took and that the bond between warder and Aes Sedai could be easily explained in other less time consuming ways and without altering Lan's character so substantially. 

You're changing the subject. The issue was whether "book Lan" would participate in such a ceremony were it to occur, not whether the scene was contrived. The scene does not alter Lan's character at all - it is, in fact, well in keeping with it. 

[Maximillion]

Just now, Elder_Haman said:

You're changing the subject. The issue was whether "book Lan" would participate in such a ceremony were it to occur, not whether the scene was contrived. The scene does not alter Lan's character at all - it is, in fact, well in keeping with it. 

 

Yeah well I disagree with that.

Like I said, you could make up ANY ceremony you wanted and put any behaviour down to duty - makes the representation no less inaccurate IMO.

 

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

makes the representation no less inaccurate IMO.

What makes the representation inaccurate?

Lan's core character trait is not his stoicism. It is his unfailing commitment to duty. Thus, it is within his character to do anything duty requires of him. If duty requires that he scream and rend his garments in ritual mourning, he will do it with everything he has.

 

2 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

you could make up ANY ceremony you wanted

True. And Lan would do his duty. You can argue about whether Stepin's funeral was a good scene or a bad one. (I would have scaled it back to allow for a couple of other things that I thought were missing). But Lan's participation in this ceremony is no evidence whatsoever of him being a blubbering wimp (or whatever pejoratives are being tossed around).

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Elder_Haman

[Ralph]

15 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

 

 I would much prefer a subtler indication of his softening;... , a small flash of anger there.   

 

In eotw he has clear anger, not just flashes, with Mat at the baths at Baerlon. 

 

He wasn't a completely robotic emotionless figure at the beginning either. 

 

So much so that I have been surprised on rereading to find this

[Ralph]

37 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Why not? What would prevent book Lan from performing his ceremonial obligations at a service for the death of his friend?

And he seems reluctant in the show as well, tbh. I assumed it was something he knew he would find difficult. 

 

But I do find the shirt ripping unnecessary and ott

[Deviations]

19 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

What does that have to do with participating in a funeral ceremony for a friend?

He has a narrow, single minded focus at this point. Support Moraine in her battle against the dark one.  An emotional display is out of character.

[Yojimbo]

6 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

In eotw he has clear anger, not just flashes, with Mat at the baths at Baerlon. 

 

He wasn't a completely robotic emotionless figure at the beginning either. 

 

So much so that I have been surprised on rereading to find this

Proof positive that Mat can get under anyone's skin. 

[Ralph]

3 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

Proof positive that Mat can get under anyone's skin. 

 

Not exactly what happened, but OK ?

[Yojimbo]

Just now, Ralph said:

 

Not exactly what happened, but OK ?

yeah, he was refusing to shut up about Trollocs and stuff that lan and Moraine had ordered them all to keep their mouths shut about.   But that is part of who Mat is, the guy who sometimes just can't keep his mouth shut.   That surely is something that would get under Lan's skin.   

[Elder_Haman]

9 minutes ago, Deviations said:

An emotional display is out of character.

But it isn't an 'emotional display'. It's an act of ritual grieving that he was specifically asked (or commanded? not sure if the old, bearded guy has rank) to participate in.

[Deviations]

6 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

Proof positive that Mat can get under anyone's skin. 

Classic.  Country bumpkins in the beginning.

 

They were charming in their faults.  Charming.

 

I'm not too charmed yet.  Nynave has promise which makes me happy as she's a favorite character for me.

[Ralph]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

But it isn't an 'emotional display'. It's an act of ritual grieving that he was specifically asked (or commanded? not sure if the old, bearded guy has rank) to participate in.

In the sidebar he is described as lead warder

[Yojimbo]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

But it isn't an 'emotional display'. It's an act of ritual grieving that he was specifically asked (or commanded? not sure if the old, bearded guy has rank) to participate in.

whatever the case, it is a terrible scene.  Another example (IMO) of Rafe deciding he knows better.   "Hey, I've  got it!  Let's add a scene where Lan does something so out of character from who he is in the books that he seems a completely different person!   Its not like anyone will care."  

 

Sour grapes on my part?  Maybe.  But just as valid an opinion as those willing to accept any deviations from he characters.

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

But just as valid an opinion as those willing to accept any deviations from he characters.

No one said otherwise. 

I'm just trying to dial in on the actual problem: not liking the scene. The scene doesn't do it for you? Fine. Didn't really do it for me either. But it's not a good example for people who are trying to argue that they've emasculated Lan and/or wildly changed his character.