Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[Blackbyrd]

2 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

I'm not sure what this means.  Can you dumb it down for me please?

 

See below

[DojoToad]

1 minute ago, Blackbyrd said:

so thinking that all that isn't an opinoin? c'mon bro 

Of course it is an opinion.  Why would you think otherwise?

[Blackbyrd]

1 minute ago, DojoToad said:

Of course it is an opinion.  Why would you think otherwise?

huh?

[ilovezam]

6 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

Do you have a quote about the Bookcloaks thing? The only one I can find is this, which seems a totally fair and balanced answer to me

 

I double checked and it looks like you got the right quote - turned out it was just the show subreddit editorialising a bit there with the thread title. I'll edit my original post on that. 

 

Still I don't agree that you have to make wide sweeping changes to the lore in order to attract audiences, and it seems like a cop out. A movie like Dune proves exactly that, and they were completely unforgiving with even the weirdest jargon. 

 

I think the average viewer is a lot more intelligent and literate than Rafe gives them credit for. 

 

 

[VooDooNut]

It's completely valid to love the books, hate the show, hate the books, love the show, feel indifferent towards all things, or hate all things vehemently, but why do we keep having the argument of if the show is complete garbage or holy scripture? These are completely subjective arguments that no one could ever win and it just upsets everyone.

 

I wish there was a better way to have threads dedicated to positive critiques/praise/analysis for the show and threads for discussing the show as an abomination/hopeless/doomed. Having these diametrically opposed opinions get tossed around in the same thread is quite useless as far as interesting discussion goes...IMO.

[Gothic Flame]

1 hour ago, Blackbyrd said:

What will you do if season 3 happens? 

I myself will dole out the $5 I bet against that happening, and say "I was wrong."

[Blackbyrd]

2 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

I myself will dole out the $5 I bet against that happening, and say "I was wrong."

 

I'm glad to hear it but how much crow- or maybe in this median raven will you have to eat after a Season 3 annoucement bro? ?

 

Edit: on this forum- public style

Edited January 7, 2022 by Blackbyrd

[EmreY]

30 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

 

Haha, I have to admit that I harbour some bias against Rafe, but I think he inadvertently created that bias when he publicly announced that as a die-hard feminist, he was going to have to update Robert Jordan's unacceptable ideals to modern standards, only to shove it in in the most ham-fisted way possible. 

 

He also dismissed criticism in an interview by making some remark about "Bookcloaks" and how the show wasn't meant for them, which I think was really unfair and stupid.

 

We're a long ways away from Season 2 right now, and I'm not sure "in a marketing push" is quite the term for the timeframe we're in right now. I think people are rightfully worried in thinking: "if they think they've nailed it, then would Season 2 be an improvement?"

 

If anything the messaging seems to be that they're looking to double down on making bizarre changes and to continue downplaying our male protagonists for Season 2.

 

It's quite possible that you're right.

 

But you (and others) are in the position of a food critic who has written off a meal in remembrance of Escoffier because the traditional 14 courses will have to be whittled down to 8, and the aspic used for some of the hors-d'oeuvres doesn't follow the Master's own recipe.

 

Most others who haven't even heard of Escoffier, legion though his fans are, will just be happy to go along with it as long as it doesn't taste wholly off.  And there's always the possibility a fantastic, authentic dish will appear at one point or another.

 

Now, after really getting into the meal, it turns out that both the deviations from the recipes and the taste become too much to bear, then everyone will likely go out for a cheeseburger.   But some of the critics on this forum (not necessarily yourself) seem to have decided that the meal was and would forever be awful the moment they took their very first bite (at least we're at the end of the first course now). And even more surprisingly, criticism for daring not to make choices that would have turned the dishes out to be different to both what Escoffier wanted and you expected.

Edited January 7, 2022 by EmreY

[Raal Gurniss]

3 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

What do you want from them, a sombre apology video on YouTube or something?

 

I have optimism because of things like Brandon Sanderson's comments around the love that Rafe has for the books, some of Rafe's own comments in the Reddit AMA he did after the show first aired, because of how enthusiastic the actors all are for their characters, and because when things went well in S1, I thought they went really, really well. 

 

Episode 8 was a dumpster fire of an episode and how you finish a season leaves the lasting impression, but I am optimistic for all the above and maybe it's just in my nature as well. I am looking forward to S2 because when watching S1, flaws and all, I still felt like I was in the world of the Wheel of Time. Scenes like Ila explaining the Way of the Leaf, Thom, Mat & the Aiel, Tam explaining the wheel to Rand in episode 1, Logain's cold open in episode 4, Lan translating the Old Tongue for Nynaeve, the Blood Snow - I loved all of that and more, and look forward to seeing what they do in S2 where I hope there will be more of that good stuff and less of episode 8. 

Nevermind, forget I said anything… I hope you get exactly what you want even if you expect them to improve despite you not actually wanting them to hear any feedback that isn’t positive.

[Raal Gurniss]

13 minutes ago, Blackbyrd said:

 

I'm glad to hear it but how much crow- or maybe in this median raven will you have to eat after a Season 3 annoucement bro? ?

 

Edit: on this forum- public style

Alternatively will you do similar if the 2nd season is the last?

[Raal Gurniss]

3 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Because they will not have to deal with the onset of a pandemic halfway through shooting? Plenty of shows get better as they go on - GoT, Witcher, Last Kingdom - were all better in S2 than in S1. 

But if they are only permitted to see positive reactions why would they change the formula?

[Deviations]

59 minutes ago, Skipp said:

You bring up "The Dragon could be female" angle here as an issue.  What issue will it cause that the characters, in universe, thought that the Dragon could be born female now that it have been revealed that the Dragon has been reborn male?

Why do it to begin with?

 

I've stayed far clear of any 'agenda' accusations to this point but after reading the draft on episode one........

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

43 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

I think the average viewer is a lot more intelligent and literate than Rafe gives them credit for. 

 

I'm with you here. Rafe seems to be under the impression that his adaptation is walking some kind of middle line between scene-for-scene fidelity to the books and wild, unreasonable deviations. 

 

In that case, I would love to get some sort of idea what his definition of "too different" from the books is because to me it seems that what he did went beyond mere compromise. 

 

Based on quotes from Rafe regarding Sarah Nakamura and Sanderson's involvement with the show, it seems pretty obvious that Rafe's mindset was to push this adaptation to the absolute limit of what he could get away with and still call it WoT. 

Edited January 7, 2022 by JeffTheWoodlandElf

[EmreY]

2 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Why do it to begin with?

 

I've stayed far clear of any 'agenda' accusations to this point but after reading the draft on episode one........

 

TEOTW tries to do this too, except it's whittled down to three people, not two.  It honestly doesn't make much of a difference that this is expanded to two other people.  As for the possibility of the DR being female, well, so what, at this stage in the game?

 

I really do not get this agenda thing.

[Blackbyrd]

22 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Alternatively will you do similar if the 2nd season is the last?

 

I am in no distinct impression of anything. The general consensus- aside from your poorly wrought ideals renders season 1 a general success. Will it go down hill? It's always possible- have never made any such claims of superiority- or cared to. I will gladly be sad about it right here... right now. I don't even want it from any of y'all- it's not like you got book things to do

Edited January 7, 2022 by Blackbyrd

[Cauthonfan4]

2 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

In that case, I would love to get some sort of idea what his definition of "too different" from the books is because to me it seems that what he did went beyond mere compromise. 

 

Exactly.

i fully expected some changes. the characters being aged up, going to tar valon and not caemlyn are not very big changes to me.

other things though are just like "uh what, this fundamentally changes huge portions of the story going forward and is going to need even bigger changes later on"

[Raal Gurniss]

3 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Why do it to begin with?

 

I've stayed far clear of any 'agenda' accusations to this point but after reading the draft on episode one........

As for that, the book was 50% male 50% female  and the show became 25% male and 75% Female.

 

That is a fair assessment, not sure it was intended as agenda, it’s more a standard 25% increase inclusivity done because the scriptwriters didn’t understand WoT was pretty balanced in that regard.

[EmreY]

45 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

I think the average viewer is a lot more intelligent and literate than Rafe gives them credit for. 

 

 

It's quite possible that literacy is not defined by a liking for RJ's books, not intelligence by watching a show on Amazon, and that there is a wide wide world out there full of people who consider themselves to be literate and reasonably intelligent who are not bothered by a lack of face coverings on Dragonmount.

Edited January 7, 2022 by EmreY

[Deviations]

1 minute ago, EmreY said:

 

TEOTW tries to do this too, except it's whittled down to three people, not two.  It honestly doesn't make much of a difference that this is expanded to two other people.  As for the possibility of the DR being female, well, so what, at this stage in the game?

 

I really do not get this agenda thing.

If there isn't an agenda, why do it?  Why add complexity to a story that needed to be shortened and streamlined but to make a specific point?

[DojoToad]

12 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Alternatively will you do similar if the 2nd season is the last?

Not likely.  An observation from before the show premiered was that Loial was way too short in some released still shots (or maybe just one?).  Lots of the cheerleaders piled on saying it was just perspective.  Perrin is way closer to the camera.  Etc.  In other words, 'don't worry, Loial will be tall'.

 

Yet when short Loial made his show premiere.  It was all comments about how the actor nailed Loial's speech pattern, the make-up was great, or that it is okay he isn't as tall as he is supposed to be.  No more talk about perspective and cameras.  It all turned to - I like it anyway...

 

 

[Skipp]

Just now, Deviations said:

If there isn't an agenda, why do it?  Why add complexity to a story that needed to be shortened and streamlined but to make a specific point?

Because it made for excellent discussion among nonbook readers.  It had them talking and theorizing about the show between episodes.

[Raal Gurniss]

3 minutes ago, Blackbyrd said:

 

I am in no distinct impression of anything. The general consensus- aside from your poorly wrought ideals renders season 1 a general success. Will it go down hill? It's always possible- have never made any such claims of superiority- or cared to. I will gladly be sad about it right here... right now. I don't even want it from any of y'all- it's not like you got book things to do

….It’s really not a success…Calling it a success doesn’t make it so.

 

Lotr was a success as was GoT… WoT is more a made for TV movie on SyFy.

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

6 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Because it made for excellent discussion among nonbook readers.  It had them talking and theorizing about the show between episodes.

They still could have done this by focusing the mystery on Rand, Mat, and Perrin. I have yet to hear a solid defense for including Egwene and Nynaeve other than Rafe's own stated motivations to make the show a feminist fantasy. 

[Raal Gurniss]

3 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Not likely.  An observation from before the show premiered was that Loial was way too short in some released still shots (or maybe just one?).  Lots of the cheerleaders piled on saying it was just perspective.  Perrin is way closer to the camera.  Etc.  In other words, 'don't worry, Loial will be tall'.

 

Yet when short Loial made his show premiere.  It was all comments about how the actor nailed Loial's speech pattern, the make-up was great, or that it is okay he isn't as tall as he is supposed to be.  No more talk about perspective and cameras.  It all turned to - I like it anyway...

 

 

Thats because they won’t acknowledge criticism and instead focus on the positive only, meaning the show has no intention of improving things…They have taken nothing onboard.

[Blackbyrd]

Just now, Raal Gurniss said:

….It’s really not a success…Calling it a success doesn’t make it so.

 

Lotr was a success as was GoT… WoT is more a made for TV movie on SyFy.

 

fer sure- no metric shows the show as success all smoke and mirrors 

 

It's nothing real- go ahead and show me a legit post on the book forums. I know I wont be seeing you there