Comparing Wheel of Time to other fantasy adaptations

[EmreY]

28 minutes ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

?????  Middle earth is rife with magic - virtually all of the craft works of the high elves, the numenorians and the dwarves have at least a minor enchantment and the rings of power (particularly the one ring) are items of stupendous power (the one ring for example enhances spellcasting abilities on about the same scale as one of the Choedan Kal in WOT among multiple other properties).  See the ICE sourcebook "the treasures of middle earth" for numerous other overpowered items, such as the sword of the original high king of the high elves which enabled him to take on Morgoth in one on one combat and the war gear of Feanor which meant that it required multiple Balrogs to overpower and defeat him.  

 

Yes magic in the sense of open displays of combat magic is relatively rare in middle earth but it is not the case that there is no magic at all.

 

 

Middle Earth has quite a number of items of craft, not magic.  You might as well call the fibre-optic cables connecting my PC to the internet magic, or the fact that I walk around with a more capable communications device that what was supposed to be around only in the mid-23rd century (as per the original Star Trek).

 

The difference is that some of these devices appear to enhance natural abilities, an advancement which we have not yet reached.  And some like the silmarils carried the essence of things.  But if in the future we can download ourselves into crystals, would that be magic?

 

Voice commands such as before the Doors of Moria do not count, and I don't know of a single instance of a "spell" cast using the One Ring or any of the elven ones.

 

There are instances here and there of "spells" being used, most notably between Galadriel's eldest brother and Sauron, but I consider that poetic licence.  Tolkien was quite sloppy about the term, as he himself acknowledged.

 

In Tolkien's world, "magic" is shorthand for "stuff that happens that we have no understanding of", not anything "supernatural".

Edited February 17, 2022 by EmreY

[Deviations]

2 hours ago, EmreY said:

There is no magic in Middle Earth.

One ring to rule them.......

[Deviations]

40 minutes ago, EmreY said:

Voice commands such as before the Doors of Moria do not count

Why?

[Deviations]

40 minutes ago, EmreY said:

In Tolkien's world, "magic" is shorthand for "stuff that happens that we have no understanding of", not anything "supernatural".

Not sure what the difference is here.

[Chivalry]

10 hours ago, Andra said:

And for me, add in Dune, Foundation, and two (or is it three?) upcoming Anne Rice series ...

Not to mention the Star Wars stuff.  And House of the Dragon.  And, and, and.

 

Yeah.

 

I'd love to see a multi-season, small screen adaptation of Dune. 

[EmreY]

14 minutes ago, Deviations said:

One ring to rule them.......

 

Would a master-slave surgical configuration be magical too?

 

13 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Why?

 

For the same reason as a voice user interface isn't magical.

 

12 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Not sure what the difference is here.

 

The fact that you might think it magical does not make it so.  "Any sufficiently advanced technology, etc etc"

 

So, IMO, the artefacts are technological, not magical.

 

...

 

We could go round in circles arguing these points, so I'll cut to the chase and slightly concede a point rather than having a sterile argument: Tolkien's universe is among the least magical I know.

Edited February 17, 2022 by EmreY

[EmreY]

Of course, we are now approaching the point where "Any sufficiently analysed magic, etc etc". ? Which is what happens when we start demanding Rational Fic in fantasy. ? 

[Deviations]

1 hour ago, EmreY said:

We could go round in circles arguing these points, so I'll cut to the chase and slightly concede a point rather than having a sterile argument: Tolkien's universe is among the least magical I know.

Fair enough

[Raal Gurniss]

4 hours ago, EmreY said:

 

 

4 hours ago, EmreY said:

 

Actually, the hanging from the cliff can work.  It's really all in the hands and wrists.  It's also possibly a tangential callback to an event involving a cousin of hers, though this time more or less willingly.

With articulated plate gauntlets? 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Raal Gurniss
Double post.

[Andra]

7 hours ago, Chivalry said:

 

I'd love to see a multi-season, small screen adaptation of Dune. 

The closest we got to that is two single-season miniseries from the Sci Fi Channel - one for Dune, and another for Children of Dune.

And then the new HBO Max series Sisterhood of Dune (which I think is like this LotR series - not an adaptation of anything explicitly written).  Which could go multiple seasons, if it rates well.

 

I'd like to see the Chronicles of Amber finally see the light of day, or some of the more humorous fantasy from Christopher Stasheff or Piers Anthony.  Or even Brooks' Landover series.

 

Unfortunately, humorous fantasy doesn't really get much traction these days.

[Gothic Flame]

23 hours ago, EmreY said:

 

There is no magic in Middle Earth.

 

 

You're just baiting.

[EmreY]

1 hour ago, Gothic Flame said:

You're just baiting.

 

No, I'm serious.  But perhaps I should explain what I mean by magic.  I draw a distinction between hocus-pocus and what happens as a result of what people are.

 

So, for example, if we all suddenly became telepathic, I wouldn't in the first instance ascribe that to magic.  Likewise, I don't think channellers in WoT use magic any more than it's considered magic that they breathe.  And in the case of Tolkien's universe, much of what transpires is as a result of people's abilities, is considered perfectly reasonable, and not as a result of something supernatural.  Now, we also have sub-creators living in Aman, and elves and others doing all sorts of weird and wonderful things, but that doesn't necessarily make things magical.

 

Similarly, Sauron's ring is an artefact.  Like my phone. ? 

 

As I've said before in reply to Deviations, there are instances of what seems to be magic in Tolkien, but they're few and far between.  And the man was sloppy in this regard.  Part of the problem is that the world of The Hobbit got shoehorned into Tolkien's earlier universe, and the two aren't really compatible.  But I was being a little extreme, that I have acknowledged.

Edited February 18, 2022 by EmreY

[Andra]

2 hours ago, EmreY said:

 

No, I'm serious.  But perhaps I should explain what I mean by magic.  I draw a distinction between hocus-pocus and what happens as a result of what people are.

 

So, for example, if we all suddenly became telepathic, I wouldn't in the first instance ascribe that to magic.  Likewise, I don't think channellers in WoT use magic any more than it's considered magic that they breathe.  And in the case of Tolkien's universe, much of what transpires is as a result of people's abilities, is considered perfectly reasonable, and not as a result of something supernatural.  Now, we also have sub-creators living in Aman, and elves and others doing all sorts of weird and wonderful things, but that doesn't necessarily make things magical.

 

Similarly, Sauron's ring is an artefact.  Like my phone. ? 

 

As I've said before in reply to Deviations, there are instances of what seems to be magic in Tolkien, but they're few and far between.  And the man was sloppy in this regard.  Part of the problem is that the world of The Hobbit got shoehorned into Tolkien's earlier universe, and the two aren't really compatible.  But I was being a little extreme, that I have acknowledged.

I think what people are objecting to is the fact that - by that definition - magic doesn't exist in any fantasy world.

 

If magic is possible in a world, it is part of nature in that world.  And therefore, by definition not supernatural.  People who use magic are simply manipulating that part of their natural worlds.  And they do it because of what they are.  Even "hocus-pocus" is nothing more than some people doing what they can do, which others can't.  Spells, incantations and gestures are nothing more than the equivalent of computer programs and passwords.

 

Even in the world of Harry Potter, human magic is nothing more that witches and wizards doing things Muggles can't.  Because "what they are" allows them to.  And they've learned the programming to do them.

 

 

[Raal Gurniss]

15 minutes ago, Andra said:

I think what people are objecting to is the fact that - by that definition - magic doesn't exist in any fantasy world.

 

If magic is possible in a world, it is part of nature in that world.  And therefore, by definition not supernatural.  People who use magic are simply manipulating that part of their natural worlds.  And they do it because of what they are.  Even "hocus-pocus" is nothing more than some people doing what they can do, which others can't.  Spells, incantations and gestures are nothing more than the equivalent of computer programs and passwords.

 

Even in the world of Harry Potter, human magic is nothing more that witches and wizards doing things Muggles can't.  Because "what they are" allows them to.  And they've learned the programming to do them.

 

 

But in a literary work of fantasy, what the authors say goes….If they say magic, it’s magic….If they suddenly say its something else, then it’s something else…If they then switch it back to magic or some sort of divine power the that’s exactly what it is!

 

People have opinions, but it doesn’t change that its the authors realm and it’s what they say it is regardless of actual reality!

 

Thats what makes it fantasy rather than fiction or science  fiction.

 

The problems only start existing when a 3rd party seizes control of an IP and starts to tamper with it, they tend to force their version of a specific fantasy reality onto an an existing one thus creating conflict with the fanbase…

 

Why do they do it? Because they lack ability to create a setting that can stand on its own merit.

[Gothic Flame]

Lets see: 

During their walk towards Caradhras when the wolves and the warg attacked them Gandalf set entire ring of trees ablaze to guard them and flamed up Legolas's arrows midflight....Not to mention he was the wielder of the flame of Anor and bearer of the ring of fire, which he absolutely used (fire and light magic) while the fellowship was running from the orcs in Moria (and every other combat encounter), he even spoke words of command in the same sequence. Dude flung spells as casually as Legolas shot arrows.

Hmm...

 

Umm...looks like magic to me.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

10 hours ago, EmreY said:

No, I'm serious.  But perhaps I should explain what I mean by magic.  I draw a distinction between hocus-pocus and what happens as a result of what people are.

 

So, for example, if we all suddenly became telepathic, I wouldn't in the first instance ascribe that to magic.  Likewise, I don't think channellers in WoT use magic any more than it's considered magic that they breathe.  And in the case of Tolkien's universe, much of what transpires is as a result of people's abilities, is considered perfectly reasonable, and not as a result of something supernatural.  Now, we also have sub-creators living in Aman, and elves and others doing all sorts of weird and wonderful things, but that doesn't necessarily make things magical.

 

Similarly, Sauron's ring is an artefact.  Like my phone. ? 

 

As I've said before in reply to Deviations, there are instances of what seems to be magic in Tolkien, but they're few and far between.  And the man was sloppy in this regard.  Part of the problem is that the world of The Hobbit got shoehorned into Tolkien's earlier universe, and the two aren't really compatible.  But I was being a little extreme, that I have acknowledged.

And the simple. one word catch all way to refer to all of the words you just spouted above is "magic" - a catch all that works across all fantasy worlds for the purpose of comparison (which is what this thread it about) regardless of whether the author called it enchantment, the one power, earthpower, dweomer, furycrafting etc.  Where it occurs in a fantasy setting just because the author decided that's how things are in their world we use the word magic, where it occurs in a sci-fi setting we use the word technology.

 

Using "magic" requires 5 keystrokes rather than 4 paragraphs of text.?

[Andra]

7 hours ago, Raal Gurniss said:

But in a literary work of fantasy, what the authors say goes….If they say magic, it’s magic….If they suddenly say its something else, then it’s something else…If they then switch it back to magic or some sort of divine power the that’s exactly what it is!

 

People have opinions, but it doesn’t change that its the authors realm and it’s what they say it is regardless of actual reality!

 

Thats what makes it fantasy rather than fiction or science  fiction.

 

The problems only start existing when a 3rd party seizes control of an IP and starts to tamper with it, they tend to force their version of a specific fantasy reality onto an an existing one thus creating conflict with the fanbase…

 

Why do they do it? Because they lack ability to create a setting that can stand on its own merit.

While all that may be true, it has little to do with my comment.  Which was responding to @EmreY's personal definition of "magic" as applied to published Fantasy.  A definition that would apply no matter what term an author actually used.

 

Most works of Fantasy don't use the word "magic" for what we all recognize as such.  I can only think of a handful off the top of my head.

J.K.Rowling, of course.

Piers Anthony in his Xanth novels.

Terry Brooks in the Landover series.

Lyndon Hardy in his trilogy that begins with "Master of the Five Magics."

I don't recall if Christopher Stasheff used the term in his Graymayre books.

 

I'm sure there are others, but I can't think of any.

 

Most use some other term - including WoT, GoT and LotR.

[EmreY]

10 hours ago, Gothic Flame said:

Lets see: 

During their walk towards Caradhras when the wolves and the warg attacked them Gandalf set entire ring of trees ablaze to guard them and flamed up Legolas's arrows midflight....Not to mention he was the wielder of the flame of Anor and bearer of the ring of fire, which he absolutely used (fire and light magic) while the fellowship was running from the orcs in Moria (and every other combat encounter), he even spoke words of command in the same sequence. Dude flung spells as casually as Legolas shot arrows.

Hmm...

 

Umm...looks like magic to me.

 

As I said, Tolkien mashed his two creations into one in Lord of the Rings.  So you've got the nordic mage figure who is also an angel in disguise.  Mages use magic, OK.  Would you agree that angels do?  Is Creation itself an act of magic?

[EmreY]

5 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

you just spouted

 

Just plain rude.

 

5 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

one word catch all way to refer to all of the words you just spouted above is "magic"

 

Telepathy and my phone are magic?  OK, then.

[Gothic Flame]

5 hours ago, EmreY said:

 

As I said, Tolkien mashed his two creations into one in Lord of the Rings.  So you've got the nordic mage figure who is also an angel in disguise.  Mages use magic, OK.  Would you agree that angels do?  Is Creation itself an act of magic?

You're...moving things here.

Magic...the fantasy books written by Tolkien, lets stay within the parameters.

"Angel" (ie "messenger") is a loaded word in current use with modern day religions. In Middle-earth the word for such a messenger is "Valar."

 

While I acknowledge Saruman's use of the word piety in regards to "Gandalf the white" neither Valar or Eru Ilúvatar were mentioned much if at all. 

[Requiem]

“Then something came into the chamber - I felt it through the door, and the orcs themselves were afraid and fell silent. It laid hold of the iron ring, and then it perceived me and my spell.

 

What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. The counter-spell was terrible. It nearly broke me. For an instant the door left my control and began to open! I had to speak a word of Command. That proved too great a strain. The door burst in pieces. Something dark as a cloud was blocking out all the light inside, and I was thrown backwards down the stairs.”

 

I don't see any explanation for this passage other than the use of magic.

[EmreY]

5 hours ago, Gothic Flame said:

You're...moving things here.

Magic...the fantasy books written by Tolkien, lets stay within the parameters.

"Angel" (ie "messenger") is a loaded word in current use with modern day religions. In Middle-earth the word for such a messenger is "Valar."

 

While I acknowledge Saruman's use of the word piety in regards to "Gandalf the white" neither Valar or Eru Ilúvatar were mentioned much if at all. 

 

I am honestly not trying to move things; I'm trying to cover a subject that could be discussed at great length but for which I don't have all that much time, and things that I take for granted don't seem to be accepted by all, so new stuff creeps in.

 

Indeed, not much mentioned in the Lord of the Rings, but you are ignoring the Silmarillion.

 

Either way, Gandalf/Olorin is a creature who existed before time and the creation of earth.  The magicky bits come from the fact that Tolkien seems to have decided on this towards the end of FotR, and done some hasty retconning while still leaving inconsistencies.  I repeat, how is the Tolkien universe equivalent of an angel doing magic?  

 

 

3 hours ago, Requiem said:

“Then something came into the chamber - I felt it through the door, and the orcs themselves were afraid and fell silent. It laid hold of the iron ring, and then it perceived me and my spell.

 

What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. The counter-spell was terrible. It nearly broke me. For an instant the door left my control and began to open! I had to speak a word of Command. That proved too great a strain. The door burst in pieces. Something dark as a cloud was blocking out all the light inside, and I was thrown backwards down the stairs.”

 

I don't see any explanation for this passage other than the use of magic.

 

And, I repeat, what we have in Lord of the Rings is the grafting-on of a the universe arising from a children's story (Hobbit) with a much larger universe (the whole legendarium) which means that Gandalf is an awkward mix of birthday entertainer and angel.  You are right, there are spells in the first book, but they become very rare as the universe begins to override the children's story, and it's not for want of need.  (This uncomfortable superposition isn't confined to the Istari, it also involves the Elves, as well as Men; Trotter becomes Strider becomes Aragorn becomes Elessar Telcontar as we get further and further away from the intent to write a sequel to The Hobbit.)

 

So on the one hand, you have a Gandalf who casts a spell on a door, and on the other a Gandalf who soon after confronts the Balrog and does no spells.  Nor does the Balrog.  It's almost as if Tolkien suddenly remembers that these are two primordial spirits confronting each other, not graduates from the School of Roke.  It's all a massive fudge, but the underlying universe is the bedrock, not Lord of the Rings.

 

And magic seems to be in the eye of the beholder.  So for example you have this little interplay:

Quote

 

'Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.

 

'I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.

 

 

Edited February 19, 2022 by EmreY

[Andra]

On 2/18/2022 at 9:47 AM, EmreY said:

No, I'm serious.  But perhaps I should explain what I mean by magic.  I draw a distinction between hocus-pocus and what happens as a result of what people are.

Perhaps rather than talking about why you think what happens in Tolkien's legendarium (or in WoT) isn't "magic," you might give some examples of published Fantasy worlds where it IS "magic."  And more importantly why they are different.

 

Until that happens, I don't think you're going to get many people here to agree with you.

 

What makes something "hocus-pocus," and how does it differ from "what people are?"

 

Because even in a world like Harry Potter's, where I assume you would agree "hocus-pocus" happens all the time, it's still only characters with an in-born talent ("what people are") than can do it.  Muggles can't do magic no matter how well they learn incantations and gestures with a wand.  In many cases, they can't even see what's happening.

 

Because "what they are" doesn't allow them to.

Edited February 20, 2022 by Andra

[EmreY]

7 hours ago, Andra said:

Perhaps rather than talking about why you think what happens in Tolkien's legendarium (or in WoT) isn't "magic," you might give some examples of published Fantasy worlds where it IS "magic."  And more importantly why they are different.

 

A Wizard of Earthsea, Harry Potter etc.  The first is actually referenced in the post immediately above yours.  Perhaps instead of requiring things of other posters, you read their replies?

 

 

7 hours ago, Andra said:

Until that happens, I don't think you're going to get many people here to agree with you.

 

I see two maybe three people arguing the point with me.  Many?

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Andra said:

Because even in a world like Harry Potter's, where I assume you would agree "hocus-pocus" happens all the time, it's still only characters with an in-born talent ("what people are") than can do it.

 

The difference between, say, Dumbledore and Gandalf I'd say is two-fold.  First, the ability is innate to both, but its use has to be learned in Dumbledore's case and not in Gandalf's.  Second, Dumbledore is a magically talented human; Gandalf is an angel in disguise.

 

...

 

I will go further and say that WoT doesn't really have magic either.  The ability to channel crops up in what, 1-2% of the population and is inherited?  That seems to be a very natural thing, a product of evolution perhaps, not something else.

 

 

 

[Gothic Flame]

*shrugs*

If you enjoy lotr by injecting some religious belief...well.

But neither elf, dwarf, or Númenorean was taught were taught such. 

Eonwe came among them and taught them; and they were given wisdom and power and life more enduring than any others of mortal race have possessed.

 

 

And the loremasters among them learned also the High Eldarin tongue of the Blessed Realm, in which much story and song was preserved from the beginning of the world; and they made letters and scrolls and books, and wrote in them many things of wisdom and wonder in the high tide of their realm, of which all is now forgot.

For the Dunedain became mighty in crafts, so that if they had had the mind they could easily have surpassed the evil kings of Middle-earth in the making of war and the forging of weapons; but they were become men of peace. Above all arts they nourished shipbuilding and sea-craft, and they became mariners whose like shall never be again since the world was diminished