Comparing Wheel of Time to other fantasy adaptations

[Chivalry]

4 hours ago, fra85uk said:

This is a Matter of personal taste but It is undebatable that GoT is well directed, extremely well acted and with great storytelling up to s3-s4. 

Now i am no big fan of GoT even in its best days because personally i prefer fantasy series that have more action but GoT first seasons are objetively a masterpiece of modern television and any comparison with WoT show is laughable, the difference in quality being enormous.

 

I'm still hoping the WOT becomes something special. There's plenty of time for that, even after a very inconsistent, frustrating first season.

 

I consider Peter Dinklage a generational talent, and his performance in GOT was extraordinary. There were plenty of other standout performances (particularly among "supporting" characters).

 

But GOT had plenty moments of hot garbage as well. I'm thinking of scenes like the one depicting Littlefinger stopping to wipe..something...off the face of one of his employees before sending her off to service another patron. Seriously - stay classy, HBO. If shock for the sake of shock is your go-to style...

[Gothic Flame]

7 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Not sure this is fair, since aside from Perrin, I don't think anyone's character arcs have even started yet. 

You had eight episodes... If they were going to start they had the time.

[VooDooNut]

I'm a patient man. I'll allow the show runnners to air another season. But mark my words Amazon, if season 2 isn't up to snuff *shakes hands and makes empty threats*.

 

Ha. That'll show them.

[Spiritweaver1]

So for other adaptations i would be interested in seeing although I don't think they have been done are:

 

Brian Sanderson's Stormlight Archive series.  IMO not nearly as good as WoT and BS is falling prey to the dread story bloat but the world and concept are interesting and could make for a good series.

 

Andre Norton's Witch World series.  I have enjoyed Andre Norton's stuff since I was knee high to an Ogier.

 

We have previously upon Ursula Le Guin's Earthsea.  There have been several attempts but none really rang a bell and The Legend of Earthsea was a truly terrible adaptation of a fine story.  

 

Thoughts?

[Chivalry]

21 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

I'm a patient man. I'll allow the show runnners to air another season. But mark my words Amazon, if season 2 isn't up to snuff *shakes hands and makes empty threats*.

 

Ha. That'll show them.

 

I have such an attachment to the books that - even though I have plenty of issues with the adaptation - I couldn't help but feel this sense of pride whenever I read an article about how many people streamed the show, or how the score on RT had climbed. I wanted people to find this amazing story. And although I restrict my negative comments to this board, I'm actually very pleased that plenty of people are vocal about their criticisms. It can't hurt, but perhaps the WOT team takes the criticism to heart. Even minor changes and edits could go a long way to improving the adaptation. 

Edited January 11, 2022 by Chivalry

[Gothic Flame]

50 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Andre Norton's Witch World series.  I have enjoyed Andre Norton's stuff since I was knee high to an Ogier.

To show ogier? Or book ogier?

[ArrylT]

3 hours ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Perhaps I may be indulged in taking this thread slightly off topic but I would be interested in peoples opinion about the TV show Elementary vs ACD's The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes.  I love mysteries almost as much as fantasy.  I loved The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and so it was with considerable trepidation that my spouse and I dove into Elementary.  We gave it our customary three episode chance after missing a couple of the initial episodes.  For those who didn't see the show.  Sherlock Holmes is a British detective who is a drug addict.  He moves to New York where he gets a sober companion who is a woman ex doctor.  Anyway we decided it was excellent.  A few of the stories are clearly adaptations of an ACD story but most of it is made up present day stuff.    I classify it on a based on series although some are clearly adaptations.  In any event we watch it every few years if we can't find a good Detective story.  

 

My point, for this forum, is if you have good acting and good stories and characters we care about an can relate to a lot of other weaknesses fall away.  Anybody else got any thoughts on this pairing/

 

I have watched the first 5 seasons of Elementary, and the first 3 of Sherlock and have enjoyed them both.  

 

I quite agree that good acting and good stories make for them being successful.   I do feel that some of the stories/episodes can be a little weak, but nothing that really detracts from my enjoyment - only more from a critical is this plausible standpoint.

 

 

[Chivalry]

4 hours ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Brian Sanderson's Stormlight Archive series.  IMO not nearly as good as WoT and BS is falling prey to the dread story bloat but the world and concept are interesting and could make for a good series.

 

I read the first couple of books, enjoyed them immensely. This felt like Sanderson's effort to create an epic series comparable to WOT. I wouldn't mind seeing this adapted.

[EmreY]

6 hours ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Perhaps I may be indulged in taking this thread slightly off topic but I would be interested in peoples opinion about the TV show Elementary vs ACD's The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes.  I love mysteries almost as much as fantasy.  I loved The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and so it was with considerable trepidation that my spouse and I dove into Elementary.  We gave it our customary three episode chance after missing a couple of the initial episodes.  For those who didn't see the show.  Sherlock Holmes is a British detective who is a drug addict.  He moves to New York where he gets a sober companion who is a woman ex doctor.  Anyway we decided it was excellent.  A few of the stories are clearly adaptations of an ACD story but most of it is made up present day stuff.    I classify it on a based on series although some are clearly adaptations.  In any event we watch it every few years if we can't find a good Detective story.  

 

My point, for this forum, is if you have good acting and good stories and characters we care about an can relate to a lot of other weaknesses fall away.  Anybody else got any thoughts on this pairing/

 

6 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

It's writers aren't really smart enough to make engaging SH stories. It's fan fiction. The actors are good - and I don't care about the gender switch - but it's kind of generic police procedural, and not different enough to stand out from the profiler, the closer, better L&O episodes, some CSI stuff, etc.

 

Now, the BBC's Sherlock, which is a more literal adaptation of existing works, even though in the modern world, is much better, and with much better actors. But there's only 9 episodes of that, I think. Mainly because they only get made when their two movie star actors are free.

 

Speaking of Holmes & Watson, I'd recommend The Sevent Per Cent Solution which is basically fanfic but very well done.  My mother bought it for me when I was a child and interested in detective stories.  I loved the opportunity it provided me to get her to freak out.

[Scarloc99]

11 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

It's writers aren't really smart enough to make engaging SH stories. It's fan fiction. The actors are good - and I don't care about the gender switch - but it's kind of generic police procedural, and not different enough to stand out from the profiler, the closer, better L&O episodes, some CSI stuff, etc.

 

Now, the BBC's Sherlock, which is a more literal adaptation of existing works, even though in the modern world, is much better, and with much better actors. But there's only 9 episodes of that, I think. Mainly because they only get made when their two movie star actors are free.

I enjoyed Elementary especially later seasons where they started doing more long term storytelling. 

BBC's Sherlock is amazing, although got a little convoluted towards the end. 

As an aside both sherlocks played Frankenstein together in a stage show, each would swap every night who played Frankenstein and who played his monster I wasn't able to get tickets but a friend went twice (to see each play as both roles) and told me it was amazing. 

[Lethira the second]

6 hours ago, Chivalry said:

I read the first couple of books, enjoyed them immensely. This felt like Sanderson's effort to create an epic series comparable to WOT. I wouldn't mind seeing this adapted.

I feel BS wrote Stormlight Archive with a view to adaptation being a goal.  I'd like to see it make it to the screen in some form or other.  Hopefully though he'll have a decent amount of creative control when it comes to the presentation.

[EmreY]

Looking at the budgets for various TV series, I just saw what LoTR prequels are supposed to cost.  Even with the fancy payment for the rights, it's mind-boggling.

[DaddyFinn]

32 minutes ago, EmreY said:

Looking at the budgets for various TV series, I just saw what LoTR prequels are supposed to cost.  Even with the fancy payment for the rights, it's mind-boggling.

If the show is far from perfect one can only imagine where that money went ?

[Gothic Flame]

33 minutes ago, EmreY said:

Looking at the budgets for various TV series, I just saw what LoTR prequels are supposed to cost.  Even with the fancy payment for the rights, it's mind-boggling.

Yup.

Amazon is likely going to go to the wall in every way to ensure a hit series.

If I recall the average...insane (yes, insanity is what I see as average here...just don't ponder on that) advertising budget is somewhere between $20mil and $30mil, which is what it is for a big budget movie.

It needs to be a success.

[AdamA]

$465 million for the first season. I don't even know what to say to that, except I believe that counts purchasing the rights. $45 million per episode can't possibly be a permanent price for every season. Game of Thrones season 8 and House of the Dragon are both $15 million per episode.

 

I'll definitely say that, to justify this, Lord of the Rings prequel and House of the Dragon need to both be much more spectacular and better-looking than Wheel of Time so far.

 

That is a little disappointing, because even the budget being as big as it is, it makes it seem like Wheel of Time is sort of a JV effort to some extent. The Witcher, too, where Three Body Problem is probably Netflix's true A-list effort they'll go balls to the wall for.

[Tamal]

1 hour ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

https://web.archive.org/web/20110830121754/https://www.metacritic.com/tv/game-of-thrones/season-1/user-reviews

 

https://www.metacritic.com/tv/the-wheel-of-time

 

The first of these links is from the Internet Archive. It's a page from August 2011 which shows the user reviews and score of GoT only a few months after its conclusion in June 2011. (The second link is self-explanatory). 

 

Notice that GoT Season 1 had as many positive ratings 2 months after airing as WoT has total ratings (good and bad), and it's user score is nearly double that of WoT. It's critic score was also significantly higher. 

 

There were fans of the GoT books in 2011. If GoT is comparable to WoTtv in the liberties it takes with its source material, where were the negative reviews? This show was nothing in 2011. People didn't yet feel obligated to like it, but its seems that most people loved it, book fans included. 

 

Ratings for Season 1 GoT began in the low 2 millions per episode but climbed to 3 million by the finale. In comparison, Amazon is touting 1.16 billion viewing minutes (whatever the heck that means). Estimates I've seen about the viewing numbers suggest WoT was pulling 10 million an episode (and that's on the low end). 

 

So why are the number of ratings equal? Why did GoT Season 1 pull in as many user reviews in 2011 (When the internet was a much smaller place) as WoT did in 2021 despite GoT having 1/5th the viewership? 

 

The sad truth is that no one cares about the WoT show. It was shoved in their faces, they ate it up, but they didn't go online to talk about it. They didn't leave reviews. They don't care. 

I have just begun watching season 1 of GoT again, intending to watch the whole series. The difference in quality when it comes to pacing, writing, music, world building, character building, couloring, acting is absolutely staggering.

I never expected WoT (show) to be competing on the same level, due to many factors. Still, I was really hoping it would not become so catastrophically weak im comparison. As a fan I've dreamt of the creation of this show for decades, especially after how GoT showed that it could actually be done. 

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

9 minutes ago, Tamal said:

I have just begun watching season 1 of GoT again, intending to watch the whole series. The difference in quality when it comes to pacing, writing, music, world building, character building, couloring, acting is absolutely staggering.

The scene in episode 1 where the boys are doing archery while their parents look on is better than WoTtv in its entirely. The amount of character information communicated by that simple sequence is mind-boggling. 

 

Compare that to Nynaeve chucking Egwene in a river, or Perrin with his wife, or the road scene with Tam and Rand all of which are completely without subtlety or nuance. Just the most hammer meets nail way of introducing characters that you could possibly imagine. 

[Jaysen Gore]

34 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Yup.

Amazon is likely going to go to the wall in every way to ensure a hit series.

If I recall the average...insane (yes, insanity is what I see as average here...just don't ponder on that) advertising budget is somewhere between $20mil and $30mil, which is what it is for a big budget movie.

It needs to be a success.

The standard hollywood metric is that the marketing and advertising budget globally is equal to the production budget. So it would not surprise me if LOTR will come in at a $25 million / episode budget. Nuts

 

But, the marketing budget for an MCU film, for example, is into the 9 figure range. another order of magnitude entirely.

[Jaysen Gore]

On the LOTR discussion, let me point out one major advantage that WoT has as a result of being cheaper - Amazon can afford to let it run longer, make changes, try and shift focus, course correct, etc,. while still serving its core audience. It may be less important, but that also makes it a lower risk.

 

OTOH, if LOTR bombs, we may not see a second season, because even for Amazon Prime Video, a $250 million dollar loss would be too much to tolerate long term.  And the production quality expectations being set means that we won't get a Divergent level direct to video conclusion to the show; it'll just be gone.

 

That lower risk profile is why I'm fairly confident that if season 3 of WoT gets approved, we will get the entire series. If we get s3, we get Rhuidean, which will generate enough buzz to get us to Dumai's Wells, which is really WoT's Red Wedding. And at that point, not only will the audience (however big or small) be committed to the series, but it will have broken even even if subsequent seasons don't make money. So Amazon will be justified in finishing it in order to build it's content catalogue and maintain the intellectual property rights which might have a conclude or sell clause in it.

[Ralph]

43 minutes ago, AdamA said:

$465 million for the first season. I don't even know what to say to that, except I believe that counts purchasing the rights. $45 million per episode can't possibly be a permanent price for every season. Game of Thrones season 8 and House of the Dragon are both $15 million per episode.

 

 

 

If it is true they paid 250m for the rights then it doesn't leave that much more than the others

[Chadouken]

On 1/10/2022 at 3:20 PM, notpropaganda73 said:

Anyway, bit of a diversion from the topic at hand, but to get back to my original point, my own Star Wars comparison would be The Last Jedi vs. Rise of Skywalker. I know it's very divisive but TLJ is honestly right up there in the top tier of SW movies for me, whereas ROS is wayyyy at the bottom. But how the saga ended doesn't really impact the other movies for me at all, including TLJ which is directly impacted by it in terms of completing the story for those characters. 

 

Wow, I don't meet too many other people who speak highly of The Last Jedi.  When I first watched it I put it at the top, too.  Right under Empire.  Unfortunately, I thought Rise of Skywalker made it a worse movie and I don't enjoy it as much knowing how things got retconned.

 

I caught a lot of hell on the internet for defending TLJ at the time though ?

 

Reminds of another divisive series..

[Skipp]

2 hours ago, Ralph said:

 

If it is true they paid 250m for the rights then it doesn't leave that much more than the others

I had thought this a few months ago but someone was able to provide a source that the purchase for the rights is completely separate from the season budget

 

2 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

On the LOTR discussion, let me point out one major advantage that WoT has as a result of being cheaper - Amazon can afford to let it run longer, make changes, try and shift focus, course correct, etc,. while still serving its core audience. It may be less important, but that also makes it a lower risk.

 

OTOH, if LOTR bombs, we may not see a second season, because even for Amazon Prime Video, a $250 million dollar loss would be too much to tolerate long term.  And the production quality expectations being set means that we won't get a Divergent level direct to video conclusion to the show; it'll just be gone.

 

That lower risk profile is why I'm fairly confident that if season 3 of WoT gets approved, we will get the entire series. If we get s3, we get Rhuidean, which will generate enough buzz to get us to Dumai's Wells, which is really WoT's Red Wedding. And at that point, not only will the audience (however big or small) be committed to the series, but it will have broken even even if subsequent seasons don't make money. So Amazon will be justified in finishing it in order to build it's content catalogue and maintain the intellectual property rights which might have a conclude or sell clause in it.

 

Normally you would be entirely correct but if I recall Amazon is on the hook for 5 seasons minimum, I think it was part of the purchase rights.  If true I cannot fathom how Amazon thinks it is a good idea.  I read Lord of the Rings when I was in 4th grade.  My friends and I took a 6 hour road trip each year to watch the movies in theatre.  I would watch the extended films once a year for nearly a decade.  But I personally have no excitement for the this show.  That could change upon viewing it but it has an uphill battle with me.

[Skipp]

2 hours ago, Chadouken said:

 

Wow, I don't meet too many other people who speak highly of The Last Jedi.  When I first watched it I put it at the top, too.  Right under Empire.  Unfortunately, I thought Rise of Skywalker made it a worse movie and I don't enjoy it as much knowing how things got retconned.

 

I caught a lot of hell on the internet for defending TLJ at the time though ?

 

Reminds of another divisive series..

 

Another Last Jedi fan here, it is my favourite film in the series slightly above Empire.  I still love it despite Rise of Skywalker which was ok but entertaining.

[Chivalry]

9 hours ago, AdamA said:

 

That is a little disappointing, because even the budget being as big as it is, it makes it seem like Wheel of Time is sort of a JV effort to some extent. The Witcher, too, where Three Body Problem is probably Netflix's true A-list effort they'll go balls to the wall for.

 

It hurts that a series as wonderful as the WOT would not get the budget of what is essentially a LOTR prequel. But hopefully the budget goes up and the next season doesn't disappoint.

[EmreY]

17 hours ago, Skipp said:

But I personally have no excitement for the this show.  That could change upon viewing it but it has an uphill battle with me.

 

Personally, I'm looking forward to the downfall of Numenor.  But before that:

 

 

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by EmreY