Comparing Wheel of Time to other fantasy adaptations

[fra85uk]

30 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Thank you for adding the first eight words, but leaving the upper case I on It betrays your original intention, even if "undebatable" and "objectively" hadn't 

 

??

Damn auto-corrector ?

[notpropaganda73]

Yeah I strangely have no desire to get in to Witcher S2 at the moment and I really enjoyed S1 in spite of being totally lost at times. I'm not really sure why I haven't put it on as yet, as I'm not really watching any shows at the moment having just finished Arcane (which is honestly, one of the best things I have ever seen on screen full stop). 

 

In terms of GOT, I never read the books. I gave the first novel a go after I was hooked on the show and waiting for a new season to drop, and I honestly found GRRM's writing style sort of boring and wasn't engaged in the book at all, so I gave up. It's something I've sort of been interested in picking up again, but I probably never will unless he actually finishes the series. 

 

But for the show, the early seasons and especially S3 & 4 were top tier television, without a doubt. HBO makes great television. But as has been mentioned, they very much leaned away from the more fantastical elements and even when watching the show, I found the threat of the White Walkers plain boring at times and wanted to get back to the storyline of Lannister vs. Stark.

 

he Wildlings and the Nights Watch was a more interesting storyline to me than the White Walkers but in saying that, I always felt that Jon Snow was a character I was constantly told I should care about but I simply didn't. I was more interested in what was happening around him really.

[Ralph]

I never watched GOT. I saw trailers and clips etc, but although I loved the first few books, I felt he lost his way drastically, and I didn't see any chance he would finish. 

 

Although I wanted to see the non-reader reaction to Ned's execution and the Red Wedding and other bits, by the time it came on I was really not interested in the whole thing, especially because it was obvious the end would not be GRRM anyway. 

[Jaysen Gore]

12 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

Yeah I strangely have no desire to get in to Witcher S2 at the moment and I really enjoyed S1 in spite of being totally lost at times. I'm not really sure why I haven't put it on as yet, as I'm not really watching any shows at the moment having just finished Arcane (which is honestly, one of the best things I have ever seen on screen full stop). 

 

In terms of GOT, I never read the books. I gave the first novel a go after I was hooked on the show and waiting for a new season to drop, and I honestly found GRRM's writing style sort of boring and wasn't engaged in the book at all, so I gave up. It's something I've sort of been interested in picking up again, but I probably never will unless he actually finishes the series. 

 

But for the show, the early seasons and especially S3 & 4 were top tier television, without a doubt. HBO makes great television. But as has been mentioned, they very much leaned away from the more fantastical elements and even when watching the show, I found the threat of the White Walkers plain boring at times and wanted to get back to the storyline of Lannister vs. Stark.

 

he Wildlings and the Nights Watch was a more interesting storyline to me than the White Walkers but in saying that, I always felt that Jon Snow was a character I was constantly told I should care about but I simply didn't. I was more interested in what was happening around him really.

I think your feeling about Jon was both natural, and aimed for by GRRM. Everything about him screams Chosen One trope, but he is someone to whom the story happens, not who makes it happen. He is the every man witness, not the hero.  And I think that was one reason why everyone was so pissed at Season 8.

 

If you think GRRM's writing style was sort of boring in book 1, be glad you didn't get to later books. If you think the WoT slog is bad, let me tell you about Dany's Dornish cousin, the intricacies of Iron Island politics, or Tyrion's adventures with the other dwarfs for a book.

 

And I completely agree that Season 1-4 taken in isolation might be the best fantasy show ever aired. But...it didn't end there.

[Jaysen Gore]

1 minute ago, Ralph said:

I never watched GOT. I saw trailers and clips etc, but although I loved the first few books, I felt he lost his way drastically, and I didn't see any chance he would finish. 

 

Although I wanted to see the non-reader reaction to Ned's execution and the Red Wedding and other bits, by the time it came on I was really not interested in the whole thing, especially because it was obvious the end would not be GRRM anyway. 

Oh, you should have. It was glorious to see people's reactions as it happened.

 

Hey - a thought for the Bookcloaks out there - for all the nuance, detail, and spoilers that are out there about Wheel of Time among our community, HBO was able to completely surprise people with THE RED FREAKIN' WEDDING. So the audience for tv shows just don't care to research the way we do. (Sean Bean's death shouldn't have surprised anyone; he's in the top 10 of most killed actors on screen, and removing him makes this the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe with sex.)

[notpropaganda73]

5 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

I think your feeling about Jon was both natural, and aimed for by GRRM. Everything about him screams Chosen One trope, but he is someone to whom the story happens, not who makes it happen. He is the every man witness, not the hero.  And I think that was one reason why everyone was so pissed at Season 8.

 

If you think GRRM's writing style was sort of boring in book 1, be glad you didn't get to later books. If you think the WoT slog is bad, let me tell you about Dany's Dornish cousin, the intricacies of Iron Island politics, or Tyrion's adventures with the other dwarfs for a book.

 

And I completely agree that Season 1-4 taken in isolation might be the best fantasy show ever aired. But...it didn't end there.

 

Well if it was aimed for by GRRM, the show did a great job of adapting that character haha. Not to say I didn't like him, I just didn't understand why everyone in the show seemed to be so enamoured by him. He just sort of becomes the Nights Watch leader and gets Wildlings to follow him... just because. Although my main issue with the final seasons was that none of it felt earned and it was all so rushed, rather than the actual story beats. 

 

Ha, thank you for the heads up on the writing style. It was a long time ago and maybe I was just impatient as I wanted more story in that world, but I definitely think I will avoid the series until I know it's completed. 

 

The last line that I've bolded is interesting to me. Does how it ended leave a bad taste with how good it initially was? I wonder about those sorts of things. Is Star Wars negatively impacted as a whole for the really poor entries to the Skywalker Saga over the years? Would Arcane S1 be negatively viewed if future seasons take a significant turn for the worse? My inclination is to say no - although I have no desire to rewatch early seasons of GOT, so maybe my actions speak louder than my words there! 

[VooDooNut]

4 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

Well if it was aimed for by GRRM, the show did a great job of adapting that character haha. Not to say I didn't like him, I just didn't understand why everyone in the show seemed to be so enamoured by him. He just sort of becomes the Nights Watch leader and gets Wildlings to follow him... just because. Although my main issue with the final seasons was that none of it felt earned and it was all so rushed, rather than the actual story beats. 

 

Ha, thank you for the heads up on the writing style. It was a long time ago and maybe I was just impatient as I wanted more story in that world, but I definitely think I will avoid the series until I know it's completed. 

 

The last line that I've bolded is interesting to me. Does how it ended leave a bad taste with how good it initially was? I wonder about those sorts of things. Is Star Wars negatively impacted as a whole for the really poor entries to the Skywalker Saga over the years? Would Arcane S1 be negatively viewed if future seasons take a significant turn for the worse? My inclination is to say no - although I have no desire to rewatch early seasons of GOT, so maybe my actions speak louder than my words there! 

To continue along this line of thought, I'm really not a big SW fan at all (don't even get me started on the short teddy bear creatures in the original trilogy), but there's a special place in my heart for The Phantom Menace (even though I quickly tire of young Anakin). So, though I know I'm not representative of the majority in this opinion, TPM was a great movie and I could leave the rest. To me, it doesn't really matter how well it fits into the larger SW universe.

[ashi]

29 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

let me tell you about Dany's Dornish cousin

Someone always tells.

[notpropaganda73]

1 minute ago, VooDooNut said:

To continue along this line of thought, I'm really not a big SW fan at all (don't even get me started on the short teddy bear creatures in the original trilogy), but there's a special place in my heart for The Phantom Menace (even though I quickly tire of young Anakin). So, though I know I'm not representative of the majority in this opinion, TPM was a great movie and I could leave the rest. To me, it doesn't really matter how well it fits into the larger SW universe.

 

TPM gets a bad rap, I think because of the hype before it came out and how disappointed people were in relation to what they expected/hoped to see. But it's not as bad as many would like to claim (although no matter how hard I try, I just can't deal with Jar Jar ha!). 

 

The prequels as a whole I think suffer from two things: 1. bad writing - when you plot down the main beats of all three films, you have a pretty compelling grand narrative imo. But the writing is full of wooden exposition and it drags the whole thing down. 2. CGI sets. They went too far on the CGI, and I'd be interested if they were ever remade with more of a mix between practical and CGI effects. EVERYTHING was CGI and it really showed (I think this is also where the writing suffered, because actors are just walking around green screen rooms droning on). But there's a reason some of SWs most successful stories and characters have sprouted from the prequels - it's a really rich world with a really good base to build interesting stories from.

 

Anyway, bit of a diversion from the topic at hand, but to get back to my original point, my own Star Wars comparison would be The Last Jedi vs. Rise of Skywalker. I know it's very divisive but TLJ is honestly right up there in the top tier of SW movies for me, whereas ROS is wayyyy at the bottom. But how the saga ended doesn't really impact the other movies for me at all, including TLJ which is directly impacted by it in terms of completing the story for those characters. 

[ashi]

24 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

I just didn't understand why everyone in the show seemed to be so enamoured by him. He just sort of becomes the Nights Watch leader and gets Wildlings to follow him... just because.

Because the show uses his plot points without bothering with the character development that is in the books. ? Meh, because it's so cool to do so, the show even subverts his character development sometimes. Oh well.

Edited January 10, 2022 by ashi

[ashi]

38 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

If you think the WoT slog is bad, let me tell you about Dany's Dornish cousin, the intricacies of Iron Island politics, or Tyrion's adventures with the other dwarfs for a book.

Heh, for all the accusations of meandering plot, FeastDance is quite a bit tighter than Path of Winter's Twilight, isn't it?

[ashi]

To get back to Wheel of Time,

 

a succinct analysis of the failure of Game of Thrones could be that Martin understands that it is the characters that drive the plot, while Benioff and Weiss took the opposite and shorter path.

 

We had better hope that Rafe & co do not take the same shortcut, even if The Wheel of Time is not A Song of Ice and Fire.

Edited January 10, 2022 by ashi

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, DaddyFinn said:

I've not read the books or watched season 2(for some reason I'm not interested at all) but maybe it will pick up again in season 3 and the stuff in season 2 will pay off somehow..

At this point it is an entirely different story there is no way to bring it back to the books I enjoy it as a tv series my point is that many many of those on here who claim it is an amazing adaptation either choose to ignore, or don’t know the source material when they then attack WOT for far far smaller changes. It makes the point that the WOT can be highly successful and not have to follow the source material. 

[Jaysen Gore]

1 hour ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

Well if it was aimed for by GRRM, the show did a great job of adapting that character haha. Not to say I didn't like him, I just didn't understand why everyone in the show seemed to be so enamoured by him. He just sort of becomes the Nights Watch leader and gets Wildlings to follow him... just because. Although my main issue with the final seasons was that none of it felt earned and it was all so rushed, rather than the actual story beats. 

 

Ha, thank you for the heads up on the writing style. It was a long time ago and maybe I was just impatient as I wanted more story in that world, but I definitely think I will avoid the series until I know it's completed. 

 

The last line that I've bolded is interesting to me. Does how it ended leave a bad taste with how good it initially was? I wonder about those sorts of things. Is Star Wars negatively impacted as a whole for the really poor entries to the Skywalker Saga over the years? Would Arcane S1 be negatively viewed if future seasons take a significant turn for the worse? My inclination is to say no - although I have no desire to rewatch early seasons of GOT, so maybe my actions speak louder than my words there! 

It didn't leave a bad taste in my mouth, because I had long stopped being emotionally invested in the characters, and was all about the plot. And once I knew how the story had ended - not that I would have done what they did  - I had little interest in discussing it further.  It became a bad whodunit, and once I know who done it, I done didn't care.

 

Spoilered for more speculative details off topic from WoT, but kind of related to the adaptation issues:

Spoiler

Jon - should have been dragon chow. Fine, he kills, Dany. But the dragon should have roasted him, and not doing so made little sense, Targ blood or not. Hello, my name is Inigo Mondrogon; you killed my mother...prepare to die... I have no issue with him nope-ing north of the wall, but he shouldn't have lived that long. And losing him vs the Night King was a massive kick in the fans' faces, even though it wouldn't have existed in the books.

 

Sansa - Either the show ignored the foreshadowing of the dire wolves, or I'm seeing something that isn't there. But according to the foreshadowing, Sansa should be dead. And the whole "Joffrey and Ramsey made me stronger" speech was just absolutely horrid. I do like her outcome as Queen, but it would have been better with her married to Tyrion in KL, and reinforcing the line through her previous engagements with him and Joffrey.

 

Bran - A dead or married Sansa would have had the knock on benefit of enabling them to make the 3 eyed raven the King in the North, where they still believe in the old ways and the magic, and he was the rightful heir. Instead of in KL, where he had no claim to the throne.

Tyrion - should have been King; he had the best remaining claim to the throne, as the only remaining male relation of the dead Kings.

 

Arya - my only complaints here was them personalizing the Night King - this was supposed to be generic Walking Dead - and her taking way too much damage from the other Faceless trainee.  But since they didn't kill her, I have no real objections to her arc. I know people despise it, tho, because Super Saiyan Wahmenz!!! Stealing from Jon! 

 

Dany - this was an execution issue, not a plot line issue. The turn was too sudden, too severe, and too far over the line. Like Anakin, she goes from slightly bad to slaughtering children in 5 minutes flat. Which doesn't leave enough time for Jon's moral dilemma.

 

Jamie / Cersei - would have been a perfect plot and outcome, if it were a rose among thorns. But it was just another thorn, and perceived as a cop out.  But I did actually foresee this outcome.

 

The secondary characters - Hound / Mountain, Brienne, Davos, Bronn - all perfectly done, though.

 

Ultimately, I don't think any of the major characters except Arya and Jamie ended up how they did based on how they started. and the story as a whole is broken as a result. 

Edited January 10, 2022 by Jaysen Gore

[Jaysen Gore]

48 minutes ago, ashi said:

Heh, for all the accusations of meandering plot, FeastDance is quite a bit tighter than Path of Winter's Twilight, isn't it?

Prove to me GRRM isn't done meandering and we can discuss. ? 

[ashi]

2 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Prove to me GRRM isn't done meandering and we can discuss. ? 

Sadly, I think he has drowned in the rivers of his own ridiculous meticulous character integrity.

[Spiritweaver1]

Perhaps I may be indulged in taking this thread slightly off topic but I would be interested in peoples opinion about the TV show Elementary vs ACD's The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes.  I love mysteries almost as much as fantasy.  I loved The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and so it was with considerable trepidation that my spouse and I dove into Elementary.  We gave it our customary three episode chance after missing a couple of the initial episodes.  For those who didn't see the show.  Sherlock Holmes is a British detective who is a drug addict.  He moves to New York where he gets a sober companion who is a woman ex doctor.  Anyway we decided it was excellent.  A few of the stories are clearly adaptations of an ACD story but most of it is made up present day stuff.    I classify it on a based on series although some are clearly adaptations.  In any event we watch it every few years if we can't find a good Detective story.  

 

My point, for this forum, is if you have good acting and good stories and characters we care about an can relate to a lot of other weaknesses fall away.  Anybody else got any thoughts on this pairing/

[Jaysen Gore]

2 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Perhaps I may be indulged in taking this thread slightly off topic but I would be interested in peoples opinion about the TV show Elementary vs ACD's The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes.  I love mysteries almost as much as fantasy.  I loved The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and so it was with considerable trepidation that my spouse and I dove into Elementary.  We gave it our customary three episode chance after missing a couple of the initial episodes.  For those who didn't see the show.  Sherlock Holmes is a British detective who is a drug addict.  He moves to New York where he gets a sober companion who is a woman ex doctor.  Anyway we decided it was excellent.  A few of the stories are clearly adaptations of an ACD story but most of it is made up present day stuff.    I classify it on a based on series although some are clearly adaptations.  In any event we watch it every few years if we can't find a good Detective story.  

 

My point, for this forum, is if you have good acting and good stories and characters we care about an can relate to a lot of other weaknesses fall away.  Anybody else got any thoughts on this pairing/

It's writers aren't really smart enough to make engaging SH stories. It's fan fiction. The actors are good - and I don't care about the gender switch - but it's kind of generic police procedural, and not different enough to stand out from the profiler, the closer, better L&O episodes, some CSI stuff, etc.

 

Now, the BBC's Sherlock, which is a more literal adaptation of existing works, even though in the modern world, is much better, and with much better actors. But there's only 9 episodes of that, I think. Mainly because they only get made when their two movie star actors are free.

[Jaysen Gore]

10 minutes ago, ashi said:

Sadly, I think he has drowned in the rivers of his own ridiculous meticulous character integrity.

you misspelt gravy. By like, a lot.

[ashi]

3 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

you misspelt gravy. By like, a lot.

literal lol *sadface*

[Gothic Flame]

1 hour ago, ashi said:

We had better hope that Rafe & co do not take the same shortcut, even if The Wheel of Time is not A Song of Ice and Fire.

You're a little too late for that.

[ashi]

9 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

You're a little too late for that.

Yeah maybe, though despite the show not bothering with more than paper-thin justifications for certain actions, and definitely has unearned drama and spectacle for the sake of drama and spectacle, I don't think the characters yet have been sacrificed to service the plot as blatantly and to the same extent as happened in the later seasons of GoT.

 

Though perhaps it hurt more, then, as I think Martin's characters are the best developed in fantasy (except perhaps for FitzChivalry Farseer).

Edited January 10, 2022 by ashi

[Scarloc99]

43 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

It didn't leave a bad taste in my mouth, because I had long stopped being emotionally invested in the characters, and was all about the plot. And once I knew how the story had ended - not that I would have done what they did  - I had little interest in discussing it further.  It became a bad whodunit, and once I know who done it, I done didn't care.

 

Spoilered for more speculative details off topic from WoT, but kind of related to the adaptation issues:

  Hide contents

Jon - should have been dragon chow. Fine, he kills, Dany. But the dragon should have roasted him, and not doing so made little sense, Targ blood or not. Hello, my name is Inigo Mondrogon; you killed my mother...prepare to die... I have no issue with him nope-ing north of the wall, but he shouldn't have lived that long. And losing him vs the Night King was a massive kick in the fans' faces, even though it wouldn't have existed in the books.

 

Sansa - Either the show ignored the foreshadowing of the dire wolves, or I'm seeing something that isn't there. But according to the foreshadowing, Sansa should be dead. And the whole "Joffrey and Ramsey made me stronger" speech was just absolutely horrid. I do like her outcome as Queen, but it would have been better with her married to Tyrion in KL, and reinforcing the line through her previous engagements with him and Joffrey.

 

Bran - A dead or married Sansa would have had the knock on benefit of enabling them to make the 3 eyed raven the King in the North, where they still believe in the old ways and the magic, and he was the rightful heir. Instead of in KL, where he had no claim to the throne.

Tyrion - should have been King; he had the best remaining claim to the throne, as the only remaining male relation of the dead Kings.

 

Arya - my only complaints here was them personalizing the Night King - this was supposed to be generic Walking Dead - and her taking way too much damage from the other Faceless trainee.  But since they didn't kill her, I have no real objections to her arc. I know people despise it, tho, because Super Saiyan Wahmenz!!! Stealing from Jon! 

 

Dany - this was an execution issue, not a plot line issue. The turn was too sudden, too severe, and too far over the line. Like Anakin, she goes from slightly bad to slaughtering children in 5 minutes flat. Which doesn't leave enough time for Jon's moral dilemma.

 

Jamie / Cersei - would have been a perfect plot and outcome, if it were a rose among thorns. But it was just another thorn, and perceived as a cop out.  But I did actually foresee this outcome.

 

The secondary characters - Hound / Mountain, Brienne, Davos, Bronn - all perfectly done, though.

 

Ultimately, I don't think any of the major characters except Arya and Jamie ended up how they did based on how they started. and the story as a whole is broken as a result. 

I had no issue with Arya killing the Night king, my issue with it was how anticlimactic it felt her just running and jumping at him. A friend had a suggestion that she use her many faces training to pretend to be one of the dead and sneak up on him. 
 

The main issue with the last season was that jumps in time where not defined. In the earlier seasons when everyone was separated out you could spend 3 episodes looking at other characters and when you returned to Dany it felt like time and passed. When your seeing her every week you know it takes months to march an army to kings landing but when it is 2 episodes that makes it feel hours or days. 
 

I also think the argument for Bran being king was just stupid, he is out version of Amazon so he should be king. But also the writers just ignored stuff, let’s spend seasons with a Jamie redemption arc only to have him go back on it, lets have Dany forget about the fleet of dragon killers. Let’s build up the golden company and then just kill them. It became obvious D and W just wanted to be done with it all. 

Edited January 10, 2022 by Sir_Charrid

[VooDooNut]

I will say, GoT introduced me to Peter Dinklage, and for that I will be forever grateful. That dude has screen presence.

[Jaysen Gore]

19 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

You're a little too late for that.

Not sure this is fair, since aside from Perrin, I don't think anyone's character arcs have even started yet.