Moridin, Rand, and the end of the story

[Asthereal]

On 11/30/2021 at 8:09 PM, KakitaOCU said:

Infinite turnings of the wheel, infinite times The Dragon stood with the DO held in a crushing grip and not ONCE did the dragon ever decide it would be worth the changes to eliminate the pain.  That's an improbability bordering on impossibility.

What happens if The Dragon kills the DO?

We see what would happen. Rand weaves a world without Shai'tan and sees it wouldn't work, and so decides against killing him (I should say "it", but that feels weird). The Dragon Reborn will every time choose to imprison Shai'tan rather than destroy him because the world wouldn't work without him, and because Shai'tan isn't the enemy, but people who choose the Shadow are. Yet we need choice, so people sometimes choosing to follow the Shadow is inevitable and necessary.

 

My personal theory about this whole idea is that the Creator made this world, the Wheel of Time and humanity simply to contain Shai'tan permanently. All of it. It's just a prison, so the Creator doesn't have to deal with Shai'tan running wild in the universe. And the humans discovering his power and boring into reality to access it and accidentally releasing Shai'tan is part of the pattern. It gives Shai'tan hope, and keeps him occupied trying to break out. And it's the Dragon's job to put him back again. Every turning of the wheel is just Shai'tan trying to break out and his attempts getting foiled. The Dragon will never fail, and Elan was wrong. His idea that it's a mathematical certainty that the Dark One will eventually win is just wrong.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Asthereal

[KakitaOCU]

6 minutes ago, Asthereal said:

We see what would happen. Rand weaves a world without Shai'tan and sees it wouldn't work, and so decides against killing him (I should say "it", but that feels weird). The Dragon Reborn will every time choose to imprison Shai'tan rather than destroy him because the world wouldn't work without him, and because Shai'tan isn't the enemy, but people who choose the Shadow are.

 

We see what would happen if the DO is gone and nothing takes his place.

But in my case, I'm saying what happens with Fain.  

Now, it's possible that Fain only matters up to his wounding Rand which gives the keys to cleansing Saidin.  After ward he's useless and so just gets written into a corner and killed.

But that seems sloppy.  I think there's a reason he kept going and set up the way he did.

[Asthereal]

On 1/24/2022 at 7:53 PM, KakitaOCU said:

 

We see what would happen if the DO is gone and nothing takes his place.

But in my case, I'm saying what happens with Fain.  

Now, it's possible that Fain only matters up to his wounding Rand which gives the keys to cleansing Saidin.  After ward he's useless and so just gets written into a corner and killed.

But that seems sloppy.  I think there's a reason he kept going and set up the way he did.

Probably Jordan just didn't leave many notes on what he was planning with Fain. Sanderson didn't pick up on the importance of the character and regretted not giving him more bits to make his ending feel more important after he got feedback from readers. But the only reason why Sanderson would think Fain wasn't very important is if he didn't have anything about him. And Jordan not leaving notes on Fain gives me the idea that Jordan also wasn't planning anything as impactful as you're suggesting, I fear.

 

I don't see a reason in the books to assume Jordan was contemplating anything or anyone else in place of the Dark One. Also it doesn't fit my theory, but that's just a theory. ? Padan Fain replacing the Dark One is probably the wildest theory I've seen so far (though I signed up here last week, so I have a ways to go).

Edited February 8, 2022 by Asthereal

[VooDooNut]

Slightly off-topic, but has anyone read Piers Anthony's The Source Of Magic? It's the 2nd in his Xanth series, but I bring it up because the ending feels very similar to the ending of TWOT and Rand's confrontation with TDO.

Spoiler

The humans of the world discover that the "magic" is actually a byproduct of a universal-level demon being stuck beneath the earth for thousands of years, and parts of the demon's essence are leaking into the world and making everything magical.

 

But the only reason the demon is there in the first place is because it was playing an infinite game with other demons and, due to losing the current match, is put in time out. When the humans disturb the demon in the second book, the demon wakes up and nearly leaves the world, which would result in all magic dying and utter catastrophe.

 

It's fun to read things like this were the concept of reality/magic is driven by god-level forces and powers beyond our understanding.

[Jaysen Gore]

7 hours ago, Asthereal said:

Probably Jordan just didn't leave many notes on what he was planning with Fain. Sanderson didn't pick up on the importance of the character and regretted not giving him more bits to make his ending feel more important after he got feedback from readers. But the only reason why Sanderson would think Fain wasn't very important is if he didn't have anything about him. And Jordan not leaving notes on Fain gives me the idea that Jordan also wasn't planning anything as impactful is you're suggesting, I fear.

 

I don't see a reason in the books to assume Jordan was contemplating anything or anyone else in place of the Dark One. Also it doesn't fit my theory, but that's just a theory. ? Padan Fain replacing the Dark One is probably the wildest theory I've seen so far (though I signed up here last week, so I have a ways to go).

Just had a further thought here - it's possible that Fain's death at Mat's hands was supposed to occur at Merrilor, not Shayol Ghul. Same death, same Ruby fades into the ground, but under the soft spot in the pattern patched by Egwene with the flame of tar valon. Then, if Rand kills the DO at Shayol Ghul, the ruby is the seed for the Next Dark One, and the new soft spot through which the bore gets drilled is at Merrilor.  The same way Logain was the insurance policy if Rand turned.

 

 

[Asthereal]

6 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Just had a further thought here - it's possible that Fain's death at Mat's hands was supposed to occur at Merrilor, not Shayol Ghul. Same death, same Ruby fades into the ground, but under the soft spot in the pattern patched by Egwene with the flame of tar valon. Then, if Rand kills the DO at Shayol Ghul, the ruby is the seed for the Next Dark One, and the new soft spot through which the bore gets drilled is at Merrilor.  The same way Logain was the insurance policy if Rand turned.

Ruby fading into the ground? I may have missed that detail. Now I have to read that part again, but I'm at work... ?

[DragonLadyofRock]

When Rand/Moridin lights his pipe at the end feels a lot like the way of Tel’aran’rhiod. In the way that Perrin attained “mastery” of that place, it seems that Rand attained mastery of the waking world once he fully understood the nature of the Pattern. He doesn’t need to channel. He just imagines, and it is. 

[Juan Farstrider]

2 hours ago, DragonLadyofRock said:

When Rand/Moridin lights his pipe at the end feels a lot like the way of Tel’aran’rhiod. In the way that Perrin attained “mastery” of that place, it seems that Rand attained mastery of the waking world once he fully understood the nature of the Pattern. He doesn’t need to channel. He just imagines, and it is. 

Wow, I like this explaination (as I brace for someone who read the books a thousand times coming in and slapping the idea down lol ;^) )

[KakitaOCU]

3 minutes ago, Juan Farstrider said:

Wow, I like this explaination (as I brace for someone who read the books a thousand times coming in and slapping the idea down lol ;^) )

I could be wrong but I think this, or some variant there in is the general theory?  (at least back in the land of the re-read on Tor).

Rand stepped outside the pattern, wove the threads, understood the nature of reality in a way only gods do.  It makes senses that he can keep doing that from inside.

Also, if Aviendha isn't pregnant yet, this could explain why her kids are perpetually holding the source.  Something in his new nature changed how his children were.

Edited February 14, 2022 by KakitaOCU

[Juan Farstrider]

Just now, KakitaOCU said:

I could be wrong but I think this, or some variant there in is the general theory?  (at least back in the land of the re-read on Tor).

Rand stepped outside the pattern, wove the threads, understood the nature of reality in a way only gods do.  It makes senses that he can keep doing that from inside.

Yes, but I'm just used to ideas I like being shot down. 

[KakitaOCU]

4 minutes ago, Juan Farstrider said:

Yes, but I'm just used to ideas I like being shot down. 

Know that feeling.  I still like my theory that Fain was a failsafe that ended up unused and unneeded, but most don't like it.

[Juan Farstrider]

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

Know that feeling.  I still like my theory that Fain was a failsafe that ended up unused and unneeded, but most don't like it.

Interesting. I find Fain sort of analogous to Lanfear in that he ends up being an independent player in some ways. Lanfear is indie, not serving the DO but playing the game and playing both Rand/Lews and the Forsaken to win it all in the end. 

[KakitaOCU]

1 hour ago, Juan Farstrider said:

Interesting. I find Fain sort of analogous to Lanfear in that he ends up being an independent player in some ways. Lanfear is indie, not serving the DO but playing the game and playing both Rand/Lews and the Forsaken to win it all in the end. 

I'd say that's absolutely fair rather my pet theory is right or wrong on Fain, he's doing his own thing and isn't really concerned over the DO or Rand winning.

But my thought was if this repeated ad infinitum both in cyclical time and in the multiverse.  And if you put something to a series of infinity then it's possible on some level, that means there HAS to be versions where the DO completely wins and breaks free, or versions where Rand actually kills it.

So what happens there? 

If Rand kills the DO maybe Fain fills that now empty prison where in Mashadar/Mordeth just continues to grow and strengthen until the next bore is made.

If the DO actually breaks free maybe Fain collides much like the Cleansing and whichever side wins is weak enough that everyone else can force them back into the prison.

Edited February 14, 2022 by KakitaOCU

[Juan Farstrider]

The idea of a possible world (said in the logician/philosophy way) where the Do wins is something I think about, not so much in WoT but here. I actually think about what if Lanfear won more, because she's really playing to win. 

I'll have to look for these ideas on a reread when ever I get to that. 

[KakitaOCU]

9 minutes ago, Juan Farstrider said:

The idea of a possible world (said in the logician/philosophy way) where the Do wins is something I think about, not so much in WoT but here. I actually think about what if Lanfear won more, because she's really playing to win. 

I'll have to look for these ideas on a reread when ever I get to that. 

Lanfear I still ponder.  I don't know if he was just trolling or not, but I went to a Sanderson Panel in 2015.  He said that Lanfear had multiple plots going including one that No one had figured out at the time of the panel.

Now I faded away from the community around that time until this last year, so maybe he revealed more or maybe someone figured it out.  But for me, at least, I still keep looking at Lanfear and trying to figure out her extra angle.

I figured she tried to throw in with Rand, that failed so she tried to set it up to sweep in and save the DO.  But if there's even more to her plotting...

[Juan Farstrider]

1 minute ago, KakitaOCU said:

Lanfear I still ponder.  I don't know if he was just trolling or not, but I went to a Sanderson Panel in 2015.  He said that Lanfear had multiple plots going including one that No one had figured out at the time of the panel.

Now I faded away from the community around that time until this last year, so maybe he revealed more or maybe someone figured it out.  But for me, at least, I still keep looking at Lanfear and trying to figure out her extra angle.

I figured she tried to throw in with Rand, that failed so she tried to set it up to sweep in and save the DO.  But if there's even more to her plotting...

I thought she had one plan, the whole time, to control Rand/Lews as he defeats the DO, and thus be in control of everything. If she had back up plans, well none of them worked out I guess. 

[Andra]

5 hours ago, Juan Farstrider said:

I thought she had one plan, the whole time, to control Rand/Lews as he defeats the DO, and thus be in control of everything. If she had back up plans, well none of them worked out I guess. 

One of the things is that her plans changed at the end - possibly she went with one of those backup plans that had always been in her mind, or possibly it was a new plan she made up on the spot.  When Rand "opened up his mind" to her, and she finally realized she really had no chance with him.

 

At that point, she latched on to Perrin (she helped him with the Dreamspike at the Black Tower), and then tried Compulsion on him at Shayol Ghul.  Compulsion that didn't work, and finally ended her plans for good.

[EmreY]

I think people have absolutely the wrong idea about Rand and the pipe.

 

A brief summary of the facts:

 

We are told that just before Rand dies his soul does an unusual transmigration.  This is completely against the metaphysics of the Wheel of Time.  We are also told that "Rand al'Thor - just Rand al'Thor" wakes up in Moridin's body.

 

If by the end of a zillion words we haven't yet understood that the narrator is unreliable in this series, then, well, wow.  By this stage in the books anything that is said from one narrator's point of view should be taken as being absolutely wrong.  So it obviously wasn't Rand in Moridin's body.

 

But if not Rand, then who?

 

The obvious answer is Bela.  Is it mere coincidence that Bela "dies" at roughly the same time as Rand?  No.  And is it coincidence that Bela is then stated as being alive in the WoT Companion? No.  Is this a massive hint as to the real truth from the Author and his Executor-Wife?  Yes. 

 

In fact all of these are giant flashing neon signs that what you think you've read is a massive red herring.

 

What actually happened, I'm 107.2% certain, is that Rand's soul went into Bela (as a sort of karmic balance for the women he got massive pregnant) and Bela's soul went into Moridin.  The only way that souls can do this sort of thing - which, as mentioned before, is against the metaphysics of the WoT - is by direct intervention from the Creator.  This not only confirms the "Bela is the Creator" theory which some of us have espoused since the beginning, but is the obvious reason why "Rand"-in-Moridin is able to light the pipe.  As for Rand, this concludes his story arc of pain in the most exquisite manner possible, being reborn in the body of a horse as "thanks".

 

It's all very straightforward and logical, as should be at least 101.8% obvious to anyone.

Edited February 15, 2022 by EmreY

[Asthereal]

18 hours ago, DragonLadyofRock said:

When Rand/Moridin lights his pipe at the end feels a lot like the way of Tel’aran’rhiod. In the way that Perrin attained “mastery” of that place, it seems that Rand attained mastery of the waking world once he fully understood the nature of the Pattern. He doesn’t need to channel. He just imagines, and it is. 

 

I think this is spot on. He has woven the pattern and is now an expert in how reality works.

 

I am actually quite curious how the story would continue from here. Rand is such a pleasure to read about after he becomes "Zen Rand", and there's tons of uncertain things still. Will the Dragon's Peace hold? What will happen with the conflict with the Seanchan? How will the Aiel do in their new role as peacekeeping force? And that's just the big things. I also want to know about Rand's peaceful life, and I want to see Mat juggle threats at the Seanchan court and I want to see Perrin find his footing as leader of the Two Rivers and later perhaps Saldaea as well. I want to see how the women will do. Will Nynaeve go on to dominate the White Tower the way she should? How will Aviendha recover from the last battle? Will Alivia go on to wreak havoc on the sul'dam like she vowed to do? There's so many unanswered questions...

[EmreY]

16 hours ago, Asthereal said:

I also want to know about Rand's peaceful life

 

He will live in a valley with lambs gambolling about, and lots of greenery. ? 

[Asthereal]

6 hours ago, EmreY said:

 

He will live in a valley with lambs gambolling about, and lots of greenery. ? 

 

He'll end up there for sure, but he intended to see the world first. ? 

[Aan-Alone]

On 12/2/2021 at 9:20 PM, qlorin said:

there is one sentence always comes up and shows that nobody have free will. There is only one will. 

"Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills"

Hmm. Taking RJ's description, the Wheel acts like a fuzzy logic machine when weaving the Pattern. In this respect, it can't 'know' too much about the future or it would stop being 'fuzzy'. So the Wheel can't set everything in stone. Ergo, there are choices to be made. Ergo, Free Will.

 

On the flip-side...say the,Wheel can know enough to fix everyone's path. Since the loop is infinite, all possible possibilities will still play out. Isn't that a kind of free will too?

 

Perhaps the only true choice we can make is how we 'Feel' about things?