How did the show hold up for non-fans watching with you?

[William Seahill]

  On 2/26/2022 at 12:03 AM, Raal Gurniss said:

 

Yin-yang inspired and a plot device..It’s one of the core principles of the entire story.

 

I mean you could get rid of it, but you would have to do some considerable re-writing.

Expand  

Yeah, it’d be too much trouble.   

[Juan Farstrider]

  On 2/25/2022 at 10:40 PM, William Seahill said:

My dad couldn’t understand the need for the magic system in WoT to be split Male/Female, I don’t get it either.     

Expand  

 

  On 2/26/2022 at 12:03 AM, Raal Gurniss said:

 

Yin-yang inspired and a plot device..It’s one of the core principles of the entire story.

 

I mean you could get rid of it, but you would have to do some considerable re-writing.

Expand  

In addition to what Raal said, it helps to make Rand more isolated. He has to make it as he goes and can't really trust anyone he might learn from. That males go crazy from it makes all male users potential adversaries to Rand, so it is not just an integral part of the world RJ created but it makes Rand's journey very much his journey. Someone else pointed out maybe in another thread how much Rand fights against the idea of being the Dragon reborn. It's all part of the male/female division in the magic system and the subsequent fact that males were not allowed to just become the menaces they inevitably become. 

[Andra]

  On 2/25/2022 at 10:40 PM, William Seahill said:

My dad couldn’t understand the need for the magic system in WoT to be split Male/Female, I don’t get it either.     

Expand  

So, since I believe you're saying that neither of you had read the books first, I'm curious.  Did you get that male/female "split" in the magic system from watching the show?

If so, at what point did you see that?

 

Because one of the debates among readers that watched the show is whether it actually makes that point at all.

Edited February 26, 2022 by Andra

[William Seahill]

  On 2/26/2022 at 3:29 AM, Andra said:

So, since I believe you're saying that neither of you had read the books first, I'm curious.  Did you get that male/female "split" in the magic system from watching the show?

If so, at what point did you see that?

 

Because one of the debates among readers that watched the show is whether it actually makes that point at all.

Expand  

I’m sorry I wasn’t clear in my original post, but I meant that I don’t understand the split.  What reason, in-universe, is there for the Saidar/Saidin divide in the One Power? 

[William Seahill]

  On 2/26/2022 at 1:34 AM, Juan Farstrider said:

 

In addition to what Raal said, it helps to make Rand more isolated. He has to make it as he goes and can't really trust anyone he might learn from. That males go crazy from it makes all male users potential adversaries to Rand, so it is not just an integral part of the world RJ created but it makes Rand's journey very much his journey. Someone else pointed out maybe in another thread how much Rand fights against the idea of being the Dragon reborn. It's all part of the male/female division in the magic system and the subsequent fact that males were not allowed to just become the menaces they inevitably become. 

Expand  

Thank you for the clarification. 

[Andra]

  On 3/1/2022 at 12:17 AM, William Seahill said:

I’m sorry I wasn’t clear in my original post, but I meant that I don’t understand the split.  What reason, in-universe, is there for the Saidar/Saidin divide in the One Power? 

Expand  

In-universe, the split is part of the "complementary opposites" dynamic that drives the Wheel.  As a literal interpretation of the yin/yang concept of Eastern religious philosophy. 

 

Saidar and Saidin are in effect two different sources of Power, which operate differently to accomplish similar things.  In the same way that masculine and feminine forces can accomplish similar things, but by different means.  Roughly saying that men can do things with brute force that women can do with finesse, but that neither can do with the other's technique.  Saidar is controlled by yielding to it and guiding it gently, while Saidin has to be reached out and grabbed, then wrestled it into compliance.

 

Back before the Breaking, when men and women could both channel safely, that just meant they each had to learn to do things the way the Power they used required them to.  Men learning from men, and women learning from women.  After the Breaking, when no man could channel safely without being affected by the Taint (with notable exceptions for the Forsaken) there could be no one who could safely teach a man (Rand) how to do what prophecy said he needed to do.  And his mere existence as the Dragon Reborn was a risk of another Breaking.

---

Given that, I guess I would rephrase the question.  Did you actually understand from watching the show that any such "split" existed?  Or had you simply heard that it existed in the books?

Edited March 1, 2022 by Andra

[VooDooNut]

  On 3/1/2022 at 6:13 AM, Andra said:

In-universe, the split is part of the "complementary opposites" dynamic that drives the Wheel.  As a literal interpretation of the yin/yang concept of Eastern religious philosophy. 

 

Saidar and Saidin are in effect two different sources of Power, which operate differently to accomplish similar things.  In the same way that masculine and feminine forces can accomplish similar things, but by different means.  Roughly saying that men can do things with brute force that women can do with finesse, but that neither can do with the other's technique.  Saidar is controlled by yielding to it and guiding it gently, while Saidin has to be reached out and grabbed, then wrestled it into compliance.

 

Back before the Breaking, when men and women could both channel safely, that just meant they each had to learn to do things the way the Power they used required them to.  Men learning from men, and women learning from women.  After the Breaking, when no man could channel safely without being affected by the Taint (with notable exceptions for the Forsaken) there could be no one who could safely teach a man (Rand) how to do what prophecy said he needed to do.  And his mere existence as the Dragon Reborn was a risk of another Breaking.

Expand  

 

Another way I've thought about this: In the series, men and women channel the same power. The One power. It is one source, but men and women experience the effects/efforts of channeling that power differently because of how they learn and understand the One power to be. To women it is a source to be guided and embraced. To men it is a beast to be constantly wrested with. The power doesn't split, but the people that channel it do. And it is only when the One power is used in full, with men and women channeling together, that its full potential is reached. I mention this distinction because it places the duality in human-kind instead of in nature.

[William Seahill]

  On 3/1/2022 at 6:13 AM, Andra said:

In-universe, the split is part of the "complementary opposites" dynamic that drives the Wheel.  As a literal interpretation of the yin/yang concept of Eastern religious philosophy. 

 

Saidar and Saidin are in effect two different sources of Power, which operate differently to accomplish similar things.  In the same way that masculine and feminine forces can accomplish similar things, but by different means.  Roughly saying that men can do things with brute force that women can do with finesse, but that neither can do with the other's technique.  Saidar is controlled by yielding to it and guiding it gently, while Saidin has to be reached out and grabbed, then wrestled it into compliance.

 

Back before the Breaking, when men and women could both channel safely, that just meant they each had to learn to do things the way the Power they used required them to.  Men learning from men, and women learning from women.  After the Breaking, when no man could channel safely without being affected by the Taint (with notable exceptions for the Forsaken) there could be no one who could safely teach a man (Rand) how to do what prophecy said he needed to do.  And his mere existence as the Dragon Reborn was a risk of another Breaking.

---

Given that, I guess I would rephrase the question.  Did you actually understand from watching the show that any such "split" existed?  Or had you simply heard that it existed in the books?

Expand  

The show depicts the split poorly.  Almost like it doesn’t exist, and men who can channel taint the One Power, and not that the power they channel is tainted.  That said, my dad and I don’t understand why magic in Randland is gender essentialist. 

[VooDooNut]

  On 3/1/2022 at 4:30 PM, William Seahill said:

The show depicts the split poorly.  Almost like it doesn’t exist, and men who can channel taint the One Power, and not that the power they channel is tainted.  That said, my dad and I don’t understand why magic in Randland is gender essentialist. 

Expand  

Why did Robert Jordan choose to create a magic system that is accessed/used differently by different genders?

 

My best guess: he wanted to analyze the societal differences between genders in many different context, subvert gendered expectations (at times), and ultimately show that, regardless of our (perceived or otherwise) differences, we work better as one people. Whenever one group holds sway over another, an imbalance exists, and disaster is inevitable.

 

Are there issues with gendered emphasis in this series? Sure. But by and large I still find a lot of wisdom in what Robert Jordan wrote.

[Andra]

  On 3/1/2022 at 1:14 PM, VooDooNut said:

 

Another way I've thought about this: In the series, men and women channel the same power. The One power. It is one source, but men and women experience the effects/efforts of channeling that power differently because of how they learn and understand the One power to be. To women it is a source to be guided and embraced. To men it is a beast to be constantly wrested with. The power doesn't split, but the people that channel it do. And it is only when the One power is used in full, with men and women channeling together, that its full potential is reached. I mention this distinction because it places the duality in human-kind instead of in nature.

Expand  

If they channel the same Power, they don't tap it from the same Source.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

The books are explicit about that, with both the Eye and "wells" like Cadsuane has being filled with an actual substance that is one or the other.  A substance that one gender can touch, but not the other.  And with the Bowl of Winds weaving both Powers, even though no individual channeler could see both weaves.

 

Saidin was tainted, but not Saidar.  Not because men are tainted, but because the Source they use was. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Because it was the only thing used by Lews Therin and his Companions to actually touch the Dark One directly when resealing the Bore.

 

Jordan is very clear that the duality underlies the universe itself, not just in people.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Andra

[Andra]

  On 3/1/2022 at 4:30 PM, William Seahill said:

The show depicts the split poorly.  Almost like it doesn’t exist, and men who can channel taint the One Power, and not that the power they channel is tainted.  That said, my dad and I don’t understand why magic in Randland is gender essentialist. 

Expand  

Yeah, that's one of the criticisms of the show from readers.  That it strongly implies that the problem is in men who channel, not in the power they use.

 

Jordan made magic gendered for the same reason the yin/yang symbol has two different sides, a light and a dark one.  "Balance" requires equal amounts of opposite things.  And in Jordan's world, balance is needed for things to work properly.  Balance, and the dynamic interplay of those equal opposites.

 

Whether in the balance and dynamic interplay between the Women's Circle and the Village Councils in the Two Rivers, or between Saidar and Saidin in the Power.  Or even between Light and Shadow driving the universe.

You can't have a duality unless you have two different things.

 

Or to repeat an earlier saying, "There is no light without shadow.  There is no life without death."

[VooDooNut]

  On 3/1/2022 at 9:46 PM, Andra said:

If they channel the same Power, they don't tap it from the same Source.

 

The books are explicit about that, with both the Eye and "wells" like Cadsuane has being filled with an actual substance that is one or the other.  A substance that one gender can touch, but not the other.  And with the Bowl of Winds weaving both Powers, even though no individual channeler could see both weaves.

 

Saidin was tainted, but not Saidar.  Not because men are tainted, but because the Source they use was.  Because it was the only thing used by Lews Therin and his Companions to actually touch the Dark One directly when resealing the Bore.

 

Jordan is very clear that the duality underlies the universe itself, not just in people.

Expand  

I don't disagree that

  Reveal hidden contents

the Eye or the wells

contain gendered halves of the One Power. And it is because

  Reveal hidden contents

each of those containers was filled by a man or woman

that they only contain half of the One power. But I believe the One power is, from an objective stand-point, a unified source. Being only able to tap into half because of gender is a human limitation, not necessarily an intrinsic part of the One power (as I see it).

  Reveal hidden contents

The bowl is actually a good example of this in not being limited in operation when only women channel through it. How else would it draw in Saidin on it's own otherwise? The bowl is not a male or female bowl and draws on the entire spectrum of the One power once channelers have kickstarted the process.

As for the taint, is there something in the text that backs up the taint effecting Saidin when Saidin is not being channeled by a man?

  Reveal hidden contents

For example, are the weaves of Saidin used by the Bowl of The Winds tainted? Maybe the decay of the Ways...

 

...did a little research here: https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Ways

and the Ways were made after male access to the One power was tainted, so it makes sense to me that any male-half creations, like the Ways, would be permanently imbued with the taint. They started out nice, and then slowly decayed.

 

  On 3/1/2022 at 9:57 PM, Andra said:

Yeah, that's one of the criticisms of the show from readers.  That it strongly implies that the problem is in men who channel, not in the power they use.

 

Jordan made magic gendered for the same reason the yin/yang symbol has two different sides, a light and a dark one.  "Balance" requires equal amounts of opposite things.  And in Jordan's world, balance is needed for things to work properly.  Balance, and the dynamic interplay of those equal opposites.

 

Whether in the balance and dynamic interplay between the Women's Circle and the Village Councils in the Two Rivers, or between Saidar and Saidin in the Power.  Or even between Light and Shadow driving the universe.

You can't have a duality unless you have two different things.

 

Or to repeat an earlier saying, "There is no light without shadow.  There is no life without death."

Expand  

The examples of contrast in your last sentence are born out of human perception (other living things perceive too, of course, but for the sake of discussion I'll limit it to humans). One could argue there is no objective difference between life and death. Matter and energy, dead or alive, is still energy and matter. There's not even a good way to divide matter from energy. (Physicists, slap me if I'm wrong here.) Nor is there a discrete separation of light and shadow. I believe the duality is illusory. It certainly matters to humans, because that is how we are able to interact with the One power, but I don't see it as being a universal truth (if there is such a thing).

Edited March 2, 2022 by VooDooNut
hid spoilers

[Andra]

@VooDooNutI just realized how much future information is involved in what we're discussing, and this thread isn't flagged for those spoilers.  We've gone far beyond what a non-reader would have encountered by the end of the first season of the show.

 

So I've hidden several of our comments.

You may want to do the same for your own posts.

 

 

  On 3/1/2022 at 10:39 PM, VooDooNut said:

  Reveal hidden contents

I don't disagree that the Eye or the wells contain gendered halves of the One Power. And it is because each of those containers was filled by a man or woman that they only contain half of the One power. But I believe the One power is, from an objective stand-point, a unified source. Being only able to tap into half because of gender is a human limitation, not necessarily an intrinsic part of the One power (as I see it). The bowl is actually a good example of this in not being limited in operation when only women channel through it. How else would it draw in Saidin on it's own otherwise? The bowl is not a male or female bowl and draws on the entire spectrum of the One power once channelers have kickstarted the process.

 

Expand  

 

  Reveal hidden contents

The Bowl weaves both because it was designed to do so.  So far as we are told in the books, it is the only artifact that does.  And very likely the reason it worked as badly as it did is because there were no male channelers in the Circle to guide what it was doing with Saidin.

A woman can't channel Saidar through a male an'greal, nor can a man channel Saidin through a female one.  A female a'dam won't work on a male channeler, nor will a male a'dam work on a female.

Some objects - like Portal Stones - can be operated with either, but the Stones aren't creating their own weaves in the process.  A channeler activates it, but doesn't use it to channel.

 

As another explicit example:  The Bore was created by researchers at the Collam Daan who thought they had found a way for men and women to use the same power.  That wouldn't have been a motivating factor if it already was the same power.

The books are clear - Saidin and Saidar are two different "things."

 

  On 3/1/2022 at 10:39 PM, VooDooNut said:

As for the taint, is there something in the text that backs up the taint effecting Saidin when Saidin is not being channeled by a man? For example, are the weaves of Saidin used by the Bowl of The Winds tainted? Maybe the decay of the Ways...

Expand  

  Reveal hidden contents

The fact that the Taint could be seen physically as it was being removed during the Cleansing would seem to indicate that it was something real that existed on its own, whether someone channeled or not.  Also, if the taint only existed in the men who channeled and not the substance they used, every living male channeler would have had to be involved in the process.  It couldn't have been removed from their Source otherwise.

 

  On 3/1/2022 at 10:39 PM, VooDooNut said:

The examples of contrast in your last sentence are born out of human perception (other living things perceive too, of course, but for the sake of discussion I'll limit it to humans). One could argue there is no objective difference between life and death. Matter and energy, dead or alive, is still energy and matter. There's not even a good way to divide matter from energy. (Physicists, slap me if I'm wrong here.) Nor is there a discrete separation of light and shadow. I believe the duality is illusory. It certainly matters to humans, because that is how we are able to interact with the One power, but I don't see it as being a universal truth (if there is such a thing).

Expand  

My examples weren't intended to demonstrate anything real about nature.  Just about how Jordan's world works.

He drew that part of his concept from Eastern religious philosophies.  And used it throughout the books.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Andra

[VooDooNut]

  On 3/1/2022 at 11:53 PM, Andra said:

@VooDooNutI just realized how much future information is involved in what we're discussing, and this thread isn't flagged for those spoilers.  We've gone far beyond what a non-reader would have encountered by the end of the first season of the show.

 

So I've hidden several of our comments.

You may want to do the same for your own posts.

 

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

The Bowl weaves both because it was designed to do so.  So far as we are told in the books, it is the only artifact that does.  And very likely the reason it worked as badly as it did is because there were no male channelers in the Circle to guide what it was doing with Saidin.

A woman can't channel Saidar through a male an'greal, nor can a man channel Saidin through a female one.  A female a'dam won't work on a male channeler, nor will a male a'dam work on a female.

Some objects - like Portal Stones - can be operated with either, but the Stones aren't creating their own weaves in the process.  A channeler activates it, but doesn't use it to channel.

 

As another explicit example:  The Bore was created by researchers at the Collam Daan who thought they had found a way for men and women to use the same power.  That wouldn't have been a motivating factor if it already was the same power.

The books are clear - Saidin and Saidar are two different "things."

 

  Reveal hidden contents

The fact that the Taint could be seen physically as it was being removed during the Cleansing would seem to indicate that it was something real that existed on its own, whether someone channeled or not.  Also, if the taint only existed in the men who channeled and not the substance they used, every living male channeler would have had to be involved in the process.  It couldn't have been removed from their Source otherwise.

 

My examples weren't intended to demonstrate anything real about nature.  Just about how Jordan's world works.

He drew that part of his concept from Eastern religious philosophies.  And used it throughout the books.

Expand  

Thanks for the spoiler tip @Andra. I completely forgot. Oops! I went back and hid some stuff.

 

I want to respond to a few of the points, but I also think I've made the best case I can for how I view this and don't have anything further to add. Please accept it as my interpretation and nothing more.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I agree that the taint is real, but I am humoring the possibility that the taint only appears on the weaves of male channelers and is attracted to men who channel, not Saidin itself. When Saidin is being cleansed, the taint is attracted to Shadar Logoth through Rand's (male) channeling and, with enough of the taint present, is pulled towards the evil of the city. Another way of saying this is, if Nynaeve could have channeled Saidar in combination with a Ter'angreal that channeled Saidin, I don't think the cleansing would have worked because the taint never would have appeared.

 

In regards to the bore, the research into a power that could be wielded by men and women doesn't negate my point. Just because the One power can only be accessed by humans in gendered halves doesn't mean the power itself is gendered, is what I was trying to claim. The danger, as I see it, of using a power like the True source, a power that can be used by men, women, and fades? alike, is that it doesn't promote human acts of cooperation. If one person can do all the things individually, then teamwork kind of falls apart. The One power, in how it is accessed by humans, naturally promotes and requires women and men working together for the greatest of works to be created.

 

If the Creator is the source of a gendered One power, wouldn't the One power be better represented by two gendered gods, each controlling Saidin/Saidar respectively? But, as far as I'm aware, the Creator is not assigned a gender in the books. And why is it called a One power anyway if it is actually two things?

 

So, to recap, yes I agree men and women access the One power through gendered division, and this limits what each gender can do with their access to this source. No, I don't think that makes the One power itself gendered or split from an objective (outside human channelers perspective) view.

 

Long-winded, rambly, and more logical holes than swiss cheese, but that's all I got. Cheers.

 

(mmmmm cheese.)

 

 

[Andra]

  On 3/2/2022 at 2:50 AM, VooDooNut said:

Thanks for the spoiler tip @Andra. I completely forgot. Oops! I went back and hid some stuff.

 

I want to respond to a few of the points, but I also think I've made the best case I can for how I view this and don't have anything further to add. Please accept it as my interpretation and nothing more.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I agree that the taint is real, but I am humoring the possibility that the taint only appears on the weaves of male channelers and is attracted to men who channel, not Saidin itself. When Saidin is being cleansed, the taint is attracted to Shadar Logoth through Rand's (male) channeling and, with enough of the taint present, is pulled towards the evil of the city. Another way of saying this is, if Nynaeve could have channeled Saidar in combination with a Ter'angreal that channeled Saidin, I don't think the cleansing would have worked because the taint never would have appeared.

 

In regards to the bore, the research into a power that could be wielded by men and women doesn't negate my point. Just because the One power can only be accessed by humans in gendered halves doesn't mean the power itself is gendered, is what I was trying to claim. The danger, as I see it, of using a power like the True source, a power that can be used by men, women, and fades? alike, is that it doesn't promote human acts of cooperation. If one person can do all the things individually, then teamwork kind of falls apart. The One power, in how it is accessed by humans, naturally promotes and requires women and men working together for the greatest of works to be created.

 

If the Creator is the source of a gendered One power, wouldn't the One power be better represented by two gendered gods, each controlling Saidin/Saidar respectively? But, as far as I'm aware, the Creator is not assigned a gender in the books. And why is it called a One power anyway if it is actually two things?

 

So, to recap, yes I agree men and women access the One power through gendered division, and this limits what each gender can do with their access to this source. No, I don't think that makes the One power itself gendered or split from an objective (outside human channelers perspective) view.

 

Long-winded, rambly, and more logical holes than swiss cheese, but that's all I got. Cheers.

 

(mmmmm cheese.)

 

 

Expand  

That concept would certainly provide an explanation for why Jordan designed the gender split in the power, but it's an explanation that works whether the genders use separate sources or simply access the same source in different ways.

 

In some respects, the One Power has to be one thing, rather than two.  Or men and women wouldn't be able to block each other's weaves or shield/sever each other.  And mixed-gender circles couldn't exist.

 

But Jordan is clear throughout the books that this one thing exists as two gendered halves, with each half its own separate thing - only accessible by channelers of the appropriate gender.  And it is this division that produces the dynamic tension that powers the Wheel. 

Think of it as the positive and negative electrodes of a battery.  Without both, the battery generates no electricity. 

 

He's also clear that the Taint is something that is attached to Saidin itself ("like a skim of rancid oil on top of sweet water") and that it exists independent of any male channeler touching it.  A man who can sense the Source, but never channels, isn't exposed to the Taint.  This is why Reds gentle every male channeler they find.  Because it prevents them from touching the Taint, and stops their madness from getting any worse.

 

From the end of the Breaking until the events at the beginning of the books, there would likely have been periods of potentially years at a time with no men actively channeling.  Yet every time one did, they encountered the Taint.  And suffered cumulative effects that built up every time they touched it.

  Reveal hidden contents

Regarding your idea about the Cleansing:

The Taint wasn't "attracted" to Shadar Logoth, Rand had to intentionally send it there.

He chose it as the site because it was in the middle of nowhere, was unlivable already, and no one would approach it voluntarily.  And because it wasn't under the Dark One's control.  So destroying it in the process wouldn't be anyone's loss.

Nynaeve (or any other female channeler) couldn't have done it herself, even with some kind of ter'angreal that allowed a woman to channel Saidin (of which we know no examples - that's not what the Bowl does) because she was unfamiliar enough with both Saidin and the Taint that she would never have been able to tell if she got it all.

 

Which is something we know from Aes Sedai who had bonded Asha'man and found it so alien that they couldn't tell themselves whether the Cleansing had been successful.

 

Regarding your idea about male and female "gods" over the two halves of the Power rather than a single Creator:

The Creator didn't just make Saidin and Saidar, it made the entire universe and everything in it.  So having two Creators - one for the male things and one for the female - wouldn't make any sense.  Since so much of that universe doesn't have genders any more than the Creator does.

 

The One Power does, as does the people who can channel it.  But much else doesn't.

 

[Andra]

@VooDooNut

Something I missed in your post that I think I should address:

The Taint doesn't damage men's weaves in some way, nor does it damage Saidin itself.  It sits like a nasty scum or oil slick between the channeler and the Source, which has to be reached through in order to touch the Power.  But that Power is still as pure as it ever was under that layer.

The effect isn't to make weaves go bad, so things made with Saidin don't decay over time.  It is specifically to make the men who come into contact with it infected with madness.

This is why the male Forsaken are able to use it safely.  Because their connection to the Dark One protects them from it, and lets them touch Saidin without getting the gunk on them.  That wouldn't be the case if the Taint somehow damaged male weaves or Saidin itself.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Removing a Forsaken's protection, as Rand did to Asmodean, exposes him to the taint just as any other male channeler faces.

 

[William Seahill]

  On 3/1/2022 at 9:57 PM, Andra said:

Yeah, that's one of the criticisms of the show from readers.  That it strongly implies that the problem is in men who channel, not in the power they use.

 

Jordan made magic gendered for the same reason the yin/yang symbol has two different sides, a light and a dark one.  "Balance" requires equal amounts of opposite things.  And in Jordan's world, balance is needed for things to work properly.  Balance, and the dynamic interplay of those equal opposites.

 

Whether in the balance and dynamic interplay between the Women's Circle and the Village Councils in the Two Rivers, or between Saidar and Saidin in the Power.  Or even between Light and Shadow driving the universe.

You can't have a duality unless you have two different things.

 

Or to repeat an earlier saying, "There is no light without shadow.  There is no life without death."

Expand  

It’s almost like the show’s writers didn’t fully understand the material that they were adapting.  They could have at least asked Brandon Sanderson for help, since he’s the one who finished RJ’s work; or better yet, they could’ve read the books and asked him.  

Did they ask for his input?

[Andra]

  On 3/2/2022 at 4:30 PM, William Seahill said:

It’s almost like the show’s writers didn’t fully understand the material that they were adapting.  They could have at least asked Brandon Sanderson for help, since he’s the one who finished RJ’s work; or better yet, they could’ve read the books and asked him.  

Did they ask for his input?

Expand  

Supposedly, he is an advisor on the show.

From many of the things we've heard from him (there are threads about his interviews on this forum) he mostly didn't even see the scripts until after they'd been filmed. 

Though there were apparently some things he weighed in on before they were finalized - like Perrin being married so his wife could be fridged in the first episode.  Unfortunately, his opinion about that was ignored, and Rafe went ahead with what he originally planned.

 

So far, I don't think I've heard a single example of Rafe changing his mind about something after someone who knows the books advised him to.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Andra

[VooDooNut]

  On 3/2/2022 at 8:06 AM, Andra said:

@VooDooNut

Something I missed in your post that I think I should address:

The Taint doesn't damage men's weaves in some way, nor does it damage Saidin itself.  It sits like a nasty scum or oil slick between the channeler and the Source, which has to be reached through in order to touch the Power.  But that Power is still as pure as it ever was under that layer.

The effect isn't to make weaves go bad, so things made with Saidin don't decay over time.  It is specifically to make the men who come into contact with it infected with madness.

This is why the male Forsaken are able to use it safely.  Because their connection to the Dark One protects them from it, and lets them touch Saidin without getting the gunk on them.  That wouldn't be the case if the Taint somehow damaged male weaves or Saidin itself.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Removing a Forsaken's protection, as Rand did to Asmodean, exposes him to the taint just as any other male channeler faces.

 

Expand  

How did the Ways become corrupted then?

 

I already plugged this link: https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Ways#The_Corruption_of_the_Ways

 

but find this particular quote interesting:

 

  Quote

  Reveal hidden contents

"The exact reason for the corruption of the Ways is a mystery, though it has been theorized that the Ways were corrupted during their crafting by the male Aes Sedai who channeled threads of tainted saidin."

 

Expand  

And this is from Robert Jordan directly: https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt='the ways'

  Quote

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Interview: Sep 2nd, 2005

DragonCon Report - Isabel (Paraphrased)

Question

Someone had a question about Machin Shin in the Ways. Since it seems to absorb the creatures that pass through there, could you regard it as a servant of the Dark One or perhaps almost as a Forsaken?

Robert Jordan

It's not a servant of the Dark One. It will kill Trollocs or anything else. You can say it's a parasite that grew in the Ways because of the taint on the One Power that was used to initially create the Ways. The talisman of growing that was used to extend the Ways. So it's not a servant of the Dark One, but it's definitely on the evil side.

Question

Would it be cleaned with the Cleansing of saidin?

Robert Jordan

No. Its like a bacteria breed. Just by cleaning up the chemicals that caused the bacteria to come into existence, unless it's feeding on that, those chemicals, you are not going to destroy the bacteria. You simply cut off what helped to create it.

 

Expand  

 

Edited March 2, 2022 by VooDooNut
typo, spoiler tag, added another quote

[Andra]

  On 3/2/2022 at 10:16 PM, VooDooNut said:

How did the Ways become corrupted then?

 

I already plugged this link: https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Ways#The_Corruption_of_the_Ways

 

but find this particular quote interesting:

 

And this is from Robert Jordan directly: https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt='the ways'

 

Expand  

The way I read that is that as the Ways are in some way "alive," their corruption is equivalent to the madness men suffer from.  Not that the weaves involved have somehow gone bad.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Cleansing Saidin didn't cleanse the Ways, it just stopped the corruption from getting any worse.

Healing the Ways would require something similar to what Nynaeve discovered in removing the madness from the minds of the Asha'man.

 

Living things that continue to use Saidin - as the Ways seem to be doing (it's why you don't have to channel to use them in the books) - will show the effects of the Taint over time.  Inanimate weaves, once formed, don't.  Again, the taint is not in the weaves, it's in the drawing of Saidin to creeate them.

[VooDooNut]

  On 3/2/2022 at 11:54 PM, Andra said:

The way I read that is that as the Ways are in some way "alive," their corruption is equivalent to the madness men suffer from.  Not that the weaves involved have somehow gone bad.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Cleansing Saidin didn't cleanse the Ways, it just stopped the corruption from getting any worse.

Healing the Ways would require something similar to what Nynaeve discovered in removing the madness from the minds of the Asha'man.

 

Living things that continue to use Saidin - as the Ways seem to be doing (it's why you don't have to channel to use them in the books) - will show the effects of the Taint over time.  Inanimate weaves, once formed, don't.  Again, the taint is not in the weaves, it's in the drawing of Saidin to creeate them.

Expand  

How does your response align with the second quote from Robert Jordan? He seems to be saying that because the weaves of Saidin men used to create the Ways were tainted, the Ways became tainted too. That's why I think it's a great example of the product of tainted-Saidin weaves being inherently corrupted.

 

I agree the weaves didn't go bad. They were bad from the beginning. When men weaved the Ways, the weaves were tainted, and thus so were the Ways. It wasn't obvious to users of the Ways at first, but eventually they decayed in a similar fashion to how men go mad, not because (I believe, based on the RJ quote in my previous response) the Ways were using tainted Saidin, but because they were made with man-channeled tainted Saidin.

 

And I am hedging my bets that the show will focus on this corruption of men's channeling as an aspect of the taint.

[Andra]

  On 3/3/2022 at 12:24 AM, VooDooNut said:

How does your response align with the second quote from Robert Jordan? He seems to be saying that because the weaves of Saidin men used to create the Ways were tainted, the Ways became tainted too. That's why I think it's a great example of the product of tainted-Saidin weaves being inherently corrupted.

 

I agree the weaves didn't go bad. They were bad from the beginning. When men weaved the Ways, the weaves were tainted, and thus so were the Ways. It wasn't obvious to users of the Ways at first, but eventually they decayed in a similar fashion to how men go mad, not because (I believe, based on the RJ quote in my previous response) the Ways were using tainted Saidin, but because they were made with man-channeled tainted Saidin.

 

And I am hedging my bets that the show will focus on this corruption of men's channeling as an aspect of the taint.

Expand  

I'm basing my response partly on that second quote.

The Ways are repeatedly described as being in some way "alive."

The creation of the Ways was an ongoing process that required repeated use of the Talisman of Growing.  This repeated use continued to expose the Ways to the Taint.  This continued exposure of a living thing to the Taint created the equivalent on the Ways of the madness faced by humans.  

 

He's saying that the Taint effectively introduced a "parasite" into the Ways, and that "parasite" became known as Machin Shin.

 

The Taint on Saidin doesn't affect the weaves men make, it only affects the men themselves.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

When Asmodean teaches Rand, the weaves are the identical with the Taint on Saidin as they were before the Taint existed.  And the weaves work exactly the same way as they used to.  The Taint didn't change the weaves, or make them work any worse.  Because the Taint doesn't affect Saidin directly.  The Source is still pure and sweet.  It's just that you have to reach THROUGH the Taint like a rancid oil slick to reach the pure Source underneath.

 

[VooDooNut]

I think we will have to agree to disagree. I appreciate your responses and insight @Andra.

Edited March 3, 2022 by VooDooNut
tag added

[Andra]

  On 3/3/2022 at 1:26 AM, VooDooNut said:

I think we will have to agree to disagree. I appreciate your responses and insight @Andra.

Expand  

Fair enough.

Since I'm not really sure any more what we were disagreeing about.

[Guest Cranglevoid]

  On 2/25/2022 at 10:09 PM, William Seahill said:

Amazon has that base covered, Rings of Power comes out this fall.  It’ll be interesting to see how the two shows compare, since there’s definitely a noticeable Amazon house style. 

Expand  

That's... literally the show he's referring to.