My Theory on the Rand's "death" in the Last Battle

[Beowolf]

I know there are many theories on this, but I have my own I'd like to throw out here, because mine is supported by many phrophecies, and directly opposed by none.

 

Let's start with defining what LTT is. My theory is that LTT is an alternate personality of Rand's(Rand has sanity issues, whether because of the Taint or not) that managed to somehow aquire memories of Rand's past life as LTT. With those memories, that alternate personality "became" LTT. This goes with Semirhage's theory, though it is not a prophecy.

 

Now for the good stuff. Let's start with Min's vison of Rand and LTT merging. She says one must die. My theory is that this means that Rand and LTT are in a struggle for control. One of them will win, becoming the sole personality of the body, and the other will "die".

 

This idea, of the "personality" dying, rather than the body, is the basis of my theory. The Finn say "If you would live, you must die." This can be taken to mean that in order for his body to live, Rand(the personality) must lose his struggle against LTT.

 

Moving on, Min also views the Alivia will "help Rand die". Again, we can take this to mean that Alivia will help cause LTT to defeat Rand.

 

Lastly, the difficult "He who is dead yet lives" line. This one is a bit of a stretch, but by no means impossible, or even extremly unlikely. It can simply mean, Rand(the personality) will die, but the body will live.

 

Ok, now tell me all the reasons it's terrible and couldn't possibly work. *Braces himself* :lol:

[phlpr23]

It's plausible, almost everything is at this point. However, I view something more like the following occuring: A competition between Rand and Lewis Therin for ownership of Rand's body, ending up in a sort of blending of personalities. Then later during the last battle, I believe the link between Moridin and Rand will become more visible, we will then see a competition of Moridin trying to take over Rand's body, at this point Rand being able to suppress Moridin for an instant and he will ask Alivia to kill him because no one else would be able to do it (emotionally), she will then blast Rand and Moridin (while they are in locked in combat togeather in Rand's body), then the connection between Rand and Moridin will have sort of a rebound affect and Rand will be left in Moridin' body, and Moridin will be ground beef.

[Luckers]

A viable theory. Just a couple of questions. One, how will the link with Moridin play into this? And the prophecies that directly imply Rand's body being dead, like the various ones refering to a funeral pyer?

 

On the issue of Alivia... how will she help an aspect of a personality die? She is a relatively physical character, and if anyone were to help a personality die i would think it would be a dreamwalker, or at least someone with knowledge and study of the soul. Alivia is a weapon... little more.

 

Also, and this is just my personal opinion, and isn't really substantiated, but when Rand speaks of his certainty that Min's vision regarding him and another man blurring, and one living and one dying as refering to him and Lews Therin, Min expresses doubt. Moreover the way she does so always implied to me that she had some reason to feel doubt, but did not express it because of his adamant nature at that moment.

[Beowolf]

There are phrophecies relating to a funeral pyre? Why did no one tell me? :D Honestly, I've been through all the ones at Encyclopedia WoT, didn't see any like that. If there are(and I don't doubt there probably are...) could you please quote them, or at least provide a link?

 

Alivia... could do something, anything, to throw off Rand's focus in a crucial moment. She could... hit him, sever him, anger him, compel him, anyhting basically. AS long as the prophecy flows.

 

I get the bodyswap theory, and it's very likely and possible; I just don't think enough has been done with the Rand-Moridin connection to provide adequate foreshaowing. With the LTT Takeover Theory(to name it myself ), however, there are plenty of hints and clues hinting at a conflict between Rand and LTT, though not suggesting the "deaths" I mentioned.

 

Also, of course Min would feel doubt. I mean, how often do two people blur together like that? We don't need Rand's certainty to know the guy is likely to be LTT. And it's not as if Min knew about LTT or the Moridin link anyway.

[Luckers]

On Min's doubt... it seemed more to me that her doubt was over Rand saying that it was about LTT, then about the blurring together.

 

As for the funerial dreams.

 

Egwene's Dreams.

 

Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet.

[aCoS Chapter 10 - Unseen Eyes, page 202]

 

And possibly this one too, though it never specifies that its Rand. The imagery is similar though.

 

A man lay dying in a narrow bed, and it was important that he not die, yet outside a funeral pyre was being built, and voices raised songs of joy and sadness.

[aCoS Chapter 10 - Unseen Eyes, page 203]

 

Min's viewings

 

In book one, this is what she sees of him.

 

A sword that isn't a sword, A golden crown of laurel leaves, a beggar's staff, him pouring water on sand, three woman standing over a funeral bier with him on it, A bloody hand and a white hot iron, and black rocks wet with blood.

[Leopoled Boothe]

There is nothing wrong with this theory per se, but if it turned out that way I would be rather disapointed. To me it would be anticlimatic if Rand turned out to be nothing more than a temporary caretaker for a new body which LTT would ultimatly claim and use in his final battle with the DO. Rand is the character who come to know and love over the past 13 years and I want to see Rand kick Shai'Tan's butt form the Dragonwall to the the Aryth Ocean and then back through the bore, not that pushy nutjob LTT. For a long time I've thought that the whole "to live you must die" thing would be resolved by one personaliy dying while the other lived but I really hope it will be Rand who lives and LTT who dies.

[Beckon]

There are phrophecies relating to a funeral pyre? Why did no one tell me? :D Honestly' date=' I've been through all the ones at Encyclopedia WoT, didn't see any like that. If there are(and I don't doubt there probably are...) could you please quote them, or at least provide a link?

[/quote']

 

There's also Nicola's foretelling which is in tFoH I believe, during the bubble of evil thingy. Something about he who is dead yet lives and three women on a boat around the body, described metaphorically but obviously Elayne, Aviendha and Min. Later and I can't remember who but some wise one dream walker describes much the same scene but can't tell who the women are.

[Luckers]

Actually that prophecy never specifies a body. He who is dead yet lives and three women, but no body. Thats why i didn't include it.

[Beowolf]

In Dreams and Viewings, things are very symbolic. A body, or funeral bire, could very well symbolize no more than death. And Min's viewing about the three of them could mean that they will mourn him once he is dead.

[Irish]

this is off topic but has the beggar's staff vision been fulfilled

 

Quote:

A sword that isn't a sword, A golden crown of laurel leaves, a beggar's staff, him pouring water on sand, three woman standing over a funeral bier with him on it, A bloody hand and a white hot iron, and black rocks wet with blood.

[Luckers]

No. And there are other prophecies also saying the same thing. Rand as a beggar, with a bandage accross his eyes.

 

Given the injury to his eyes in KoD, he's well on his way. It's my belief that that image is from after Tarmon Gai'don, and that it is Moridin who will be reduced to begging. I believe it will be the last scene of the book, Moridin in Rand's body, a broken defeated man hiding out, and then we see Alivia and Rand (in Moridin's body) approach, and after they talk a bit, Alivia kills him

[World_of_Wheel_of_Time]

In KoD, Lews Therin agrees that he wont mess with Rand until after the last battle.

However, Logain messing with Lew Therin is very possible

While Morridin and Rand integration might be a bit of a stretch, it's still very possble

I SUPPORT EVERYONE YO!!!!

[reyler]

It's my belief that that image is from after Tarmon Gai'don' date=' and that it is Moridin who will be reduced to begging. I believe it will be the last scene of the book, Moridin in Rand's body, a broken defeated man hiding out, and then we see Alivia and Rand (in Moridin's body) approach, and after they talk a bit, Alivia kills him[/quote']

 

I'm not disputing this, but doesn't it require that whatever it is Min sees is connected to the body and not to the soul?

[World_of_Wheel_of_Time]

What about how when the t'averen think of each other, they see each other with color and stuff

Would that affect the "blindness?"

Or can someone direct me to the "COLORS" thread

[Luckers]

Actually what Min sees is not even nessasarily bound to the person she see it around, body or soul.Her seeing Moridin i that state may just have to do with it being a big moment in Rand's life... the killing of Moridin. Or even just a future for his physical body...

[wvlr]

There was another Egwene or Minn viewing/dream about Rand. I think it was Egwene but not sure.

 

Instead of two men it showed three fighting each other. Does anyone know where that was? If so can you post it? I know it was after Samuel died but that is all I remember.

 

I was wondering if there might come a time at the Last Battle, when Rand, LT are having one of their "fits" and somehow a Mordin "fit" might occur at the same time. Then somehow Rand "Pushes" LT onto Mordin. While those two are incapacitated mentally fighting each other (in Mordin's body), Alvin (sp) kills Mordin. Thus killing Mordin and LT and allowing the real Rand to live.

[Wanderer]

I think that these two point of the Karaethon cycle will be the key to the "to live you must die" foretelling:

 

Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragons blood stains the rocks of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.

 

There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land. Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield.

 

I think that something big will happen, more than a simple body-shift.

[Luckers]

The prophecies about Rand's death establish a sequence of nessesities. He who is dead YET lives. Rand's dead body crumbling away to not be him, the funeral for the man who is not yet dead, alivia HELPING him die, to live he must died... so on so forth. To my mind the various frases create the following requirements.

 

1. Rand must actually die. It cant be a faked death, or a presumed death. The language is clear. He must die.

 

2. That this death must result from an intentional effort on his part. Alivia will help him die. Alivia will not kill him, she will aid him in causing his own death.

 

3. That some part of Rand must survive this death... this is the tricky part. The fact he is dead, yet he lives is concurrent... he must be both. So whilst he must, some part of him must always be alive. This part to me forbids resurrection. Note Mat: To die, and live again. He dies, then he lives. Rand dies AND lives.

 

Now, lets concider the nature of death in the world. Death is the death of the physical body. Moridin and all the forsaken who have been recycled refer to the time between as the time they were dead. Their souls continued in existence, yet nevertheless they were dead.

 

Death, in this world, refers to the body only, and not the soul. Rand's death in prophecy is refering to the death of his body.

 

All put together, i see no option but the body-swap. No other option addresses all of these issues.

[Luckers]

The prophecies about Rand's death establish a sequence of nessesities. He who is dead YET lives. Rand's dead body crumbling away to not be him, the funeral for the man who is not yet dead, alivia HELPING him die, to live he must died... so on so forth. To my mind the various frases create the following requirements.

 

1. Rand must actually die. It cant be a faked death, or a presumed death. The language is clear. He must die.

 

2. That this death must result from an intentional effort on his part. Alivia will help him die. Alivia will not kill him, she will aid him in causing his own death.

 

3. That some part of Rand must survive this death... this is the tricky part. The fact he is dead, yet he lives is concurrent... he must be both. So whilst he must, some part of him must always be alive. This part to me forbids resurrection. Note Mat: To die, and live again. He dies, then he lives. Rand dies AND lives.

 

Now, lets concider the nature of death in the world. Death is the death of the physical body. Moridin and all the forsaken who have been recycled refer to the time between as the time they were dead. Their souls continued in existence, yet nevertheless they were dead.

 

Death, in this world, refers to the body only, and not the soul. Rand's death in prophecy is refering to the death of his body.

 

All put together, i see no option but the body-swap. No other option addresses all of these issues.

[Luckers]

The prophecies about Rand's death establish a sequence of nessesities. He who is dead YET lives. Rand's dead body crumbling away to not be him, the funeral for the man who is not yet dead, alivia HELPING him die, to live he must died... so on so forth. To my mind the various frases create the following requirements.

 

1. Rand must actually die. It cant be a faked death, or a presumed death. The language is clear. He must die.

 

2. That this death must result from an intentional effort on his part. Alivia will help him die. Alivia will not kill him, she will aid him in causing his own death.

 

3. That some part of Rand must survive this death... this is the tricky part. The fact he is dead, yet he lives is concurrent... he must be both. So whilst he must, some part of him must always be alive. This part to me forbids resurrection. Note Mat: To die, and live again. He dies, then he lives. Rand dies AND lives.

 

Now, lets concider the nature of death in the world. Death is the death of the physical body. Moridin and all the forsaken who have been recycled refer to the time between as the time they were dead. Their souls continued in existence, yet nevertheless they were dead.

 

Death, in this world, refers to the body only, and not the soul. Rand's death in prophecy is refering to the death of his body.

 

All put together, i see no option but the body-swap. No other option addresses all of these issues.

[Luckers]

The prophecies about Rand's death establish a sequence of nessesities. He who is dead YET lives. Rand's dead body crumbling away to not be him, the funeral for the man who is not yet dead, alivia HELPING him die, to live he must died... so on so forth. To my mind the various frases create the following requirements.

 

1. Rand must actually die. It cant be a faked death, or a presumed death. The language is clear. He must die.

 

2. That this death must result from an intentional effort on his part. Alivia will help him die. Alivia will not kill him, she will aid him in causing his own death.

 

3. That some part of Rand must survive this death... this is the tricky part. The fact he is dead, yet he lives is concurrent... he must be both. So whilst he must, some part of him must always be alive. This part to me forbids resurrection. Note Mat: To die, and live again. He dies, then he lives. Rand dies AND lives.

 

Now, lets concider the nature of death in the world. Death is the death of the physical body. Moridin and all the forsaken who have been recycled refer to the time between as the time they were dead. Their souls continued in existence, yet nevertheless they were dead.

 

Death, in this world, refers to the body only, and not the soul. Rand's death in prophecy is refering to the death of his body.

 

All put together, i see no option but the body-swap. No other option addresses all of these issues.

[wvlr]

On Min's doubt... it seemed more to me that her doubt was over Rand saying that it was about LTT' date=' then about the blurring together.

iron, and black rocks wet with blood. [/quote']

 

Lurkers,

 

You refered me to this thread from the other one, so I will reply here - too lazy to go back.

 

Could you post that Min quote above word for word, because I do not think that Rand mentions LTT to Min on this. I thought he only said something to the effect that it was good news not bad - that the issue was done. Rand said that because LTT had not been bothering him for a little while. I am pretty sure that Min only heard about LTT in Rand's head from Semi in aKoD.

[Luckers]

The first time Min hears of Lews Therin is in A Crown of Swords. Rand is apologising for having his way with her, and he says 'the only excuse i have is madness. Cadsuane is right, I did hear voices, Lews Therin's voice. I thought... Can you--no, i have no right to ask you to forgive me.'

 

Later, during the course of that same conversation she tells him about her viewing. He takes it to mean Lews Therin. He starts grinning in she questions him on that, he changes the subject and she frowns at him.

 

It is later, during the incident in the bubble of evil after Rand uses balefire and Cadsuane slaps him that she connects the vision and the voices, and her 'heart goes out to him'. But it's clear that she doesn't believe.

[Beckon]

It is later, during the incident in the bubble of evil after Rand uses balefire and Cadsuane slaps him that she connects the vision and the voices, and her 'heart goes out to him'. But it's clear that she doesn't believe.

 

Unrelated but was that a bubble or evil or was it Fain? I always thought it was Fain just because everything went to hell right after Fain recognized Rand.

[Luckers]

I'm fairly certain it was a bubble of evil. If Fain had that sort of power, he would have used it at other times.