Thoughts on the Aiel

[haycraftd]

@solarzI see your points--maybe the best comparison to the Aiel AND the Seanchan is WW2's Japan.  

 

I disagree about defense, though.  Their defense during the Aiel War was simply to keep on offense.  The way the different nations fought the Aiel during the Aiel War was by bringing them to a head--and then attacking their flank, hammer and anvil tactics.  That cost quite a few lives and I'm not sure the nations could have stopped the Aiel in a full war, but it worked. 

 

Rodel Ituralde had a conversation with Rhuarc about all of this. I think they were discussing siege tactics. Although the Aiel conducted many raids against each other on offense and defense, I never got the idea that they knew how to handle being under siege. 

 

The one time we see an Aiel clan under siege is when Perrin fought the Shaido in Malden.  Perrin locked the Shaido in and then took them out VERY easily.  Once the Shaido couldn't move and Perrin had taken care of their Wise Ones with forkroot, they didn't have the advantages given from mobility and speed.  They were abysmal.

 

Similarly, the Aiel clans could take Shayol Ghul and the pass to it--but Ituralde didn't think they were the best at holding it.  

 

I think after the battle became in effect a siege--holding the pass to Shayol Ghul and then just Shayol Ghul--the Aiel just became a regular army among many.  Darlin had raised a considerable army on Rand's orders and I don't think we're ever told how large that army is.  And there were plenty of others.  There were hundreds of thousands of Aiel, but there were many others.

[solarz]

1 hour ago, haycraftd said:

The one time we see an Aiel clan under siege is when Perrin fought the Shaido in Malden.  Perrin locked the Shaido in and then took them out VERY easily.  Once the Shaido couldn't move and Perrin had taken care of their Wise Ones with forkroot, they didn't have the advantages given from mobility and speed.  They were abysmal.

 

Perrin had channelers and had neutralized Shaido channelers. That makes a huge difference.

 

1 hour ago, haycraftd said:

Similarly, the Aiel clans could take Shayol Ghul and the pass to it--but Ituralde didn't think they were the best at holding it.

 

I think after the battle became in effect a siege--holding the pass to Shayol Ghul and then just Shayol Ghul--the Aiel just became a regular army among many.  Darlin had raised a considerable army on Rand's orders and I don't think we're ever told how large that army is.  And there were plenty of others.  There were hundreds of thousands of Aiel, but there were many others.

 

I think the entire Last Battle was poorly written. The siege at Shayol Ghul, especially, made no sense.

 

They didn't need an army to defend Shayol Ghul, they just needed channelers. Instead of just having Thom guard that cave entrance, why not station rotating squads of Asha'man linked with Aes Sedai? Myrdraal and Dark Hounds cut Ituralde's army to pieces, but would have been stopped dead by squads of channelers armed with sa'angreal. Why throw away lives that could have gone to help the other theatres?

 

So I agree that Aiel wouldn't have done well at Shayol Ghul, aside from first clearing the place, but that's only because no conventional army would have done well. Ituralde's traps and defenses could only hold back trollocs. Once the Myrdraal, Red Veils, and Dark Hounds came into play, they had no chance.

[Sabio]

Those also weren't ordinary darkhounds (which few except Rand had ever seen so they didn't know about them). Channelers need rest, not to mention where were they going to find sa'angrel for all those channelers?  The shadow had it's own channelers and Gren messing with peoples dreams.  Channelers alone weren't going to stop the shadow's forces there.  

 

@haycraftdPerrin had the aid of the Senchean, the Shaido were simply overmatched.  One on one just against Perin;s army (no channelers) might of been a different story.  But with no channelers, confusion as to what was happening, against Perin's army, Seanchean, and his channelers they had no hope of victory.

[haycraftd]

@SabioI agree that they were overmatched and had no chance of victory.  Yes, Perrin and the Seanchan had channellers and the Shaido did not. That's indeed, one of the contributing factors to their demise.  But that's not everything to it.

 

The main part of the battle we see was their attack on Two Rivers archers.  And they couldn't charge the archers.  They had lost mobility and had been trapped on an anvil--when Perrin and Tylee were carrying a mighty hammer.  You'd think that, even though they had no chance of victory and were overmatched, since all the Shaido were veteran soldiers, they would do some damage.  But once they were trapped, the Shaido couldn't fight Perrin or Tylee's trained soldiers in any effective way.  Their losses were minimal.

 

They instead decided to try to escape the trap by fighting UNTRAINED soldiers and made a fairly good attempt by destroying Masema's army.  But they didn't succeed in any meaningful way.  There was no Shaido retreat.  Some escaped, but most of the Shaido ended up dead or da'covale.    

 

Hammer and anvil--just on a much larger scale than Lan's skirmishes with the Aiel in the Aiel War.

 

THAT'S why I say I don't think the Aiel are particularly good at sieges. The Shaido really didn't know what to do when they faced Perrin and Tylee.  If they had concentrated on Masema from the start and tried to remain mobile by fighting through him, I'm fairly sure they would have been able to fight a retreat, even if it was a difficult one.  But instead they were a disorganised mess that couldn't charge Perrin's archers.  

[solarz]

On 9/12/2018 at 5:55 PM, Sabio said:

Those also weren't ordinary darkhounds (which few except Rand had ever seen so they didn't know about them). Channelers need rest, not to mention where were they going to find sa'angrel for all those channelers?  The shadow had it's own channelers and Gren messing with peoples dreams.  Channelers alone weren't going to stop the shadow's forces there.  

 

I don't recall where it said those weren't "ordinary" dark hounds. How were those dark hounds different?

 

Channelers need rest, yes, that's why you would want to rotate them. Sa'angreal, however, don't need to be rotated. You just need one. Graendal can only mess up non-channeler's dreams because channelers can ward their dreams.

 

The Shadow have their own channelers, yes, but Sanderson forgot that the Aiel had some 4000 channeling Wise Ones that was just sitting there, drinking tea.

[solarz]

29 minutes ago, haycraftd said:

@SabioI agree that they were overmatched and had no chance of victory.  Yes, Perrin and the Seanchan had channellers and the Shaido did not. That's indeed, one of the contributing factors to their demise.  But that's not everything to it.

 

The main part of the battle we see was their attack on Two Rivers archers.  And they couldn't charge the archers.  They had lost mobility and had been trapped on an anvil--when Perrin and Tylee were carrying a mighty hammer.  You'd think that, even though they had no chance of victory and were overmatched, since all the Shaido were veteran soldiers, they would do some damage.  But once they were trapped, the Shaido couldn't fight Perrin or Tylee's trained soldiers in any effective way.  Their losses were minimal.

 

They instead decided to try to escape the trap by fighting UNTRAINED soldiers and made a fairly good attempt by destroying Masema's army.  But they didn't succeed in any meaningful way.  There was no Shaido retreat.  Some escaped, but most of the Shaido ended up dead or da'covale.    

 

Hammer and anvil--just on a much larger scale than Lan's skirmishes with the Aiel in the Aiel War.

 

THAT'S why I say I don't think the Aiel are particularly good at sieges. The Shaido really didn't know what to do when they faced Perrin and Tylee.  If they had concentrated on Masema from the start and tried to remain mobile by fighting through him, I'm fairly sure they would have been able to fight a retreat, even if it was a difficult one.  But instead they were a disorganised mess that couldn't charge Perrin's archers.  

 

Malden is not a typical example of Aiel battle capabilities.

 

One of the strengths of Aiel warefare is their excellent discipline, allowing them to pull off regularly pull off flanking maneuvers. Remember how Lan describes their tactics. From the initial recon, to the first column's charge, to the flanking columns, to the reserve column deciding when to strike, those all require highly effective communication.

 

Aiel are normally led into battle by clan or sept chiefs, but the Shaido had no clan chief at Malden. Sevanna had consolidate all power for herself, and the only opposition she had was the other wise ones, who were all conveniently disabled by the fork root tea. In addition, a large part of the Shaido algai'd'siswai were not actually Shaido, but Mera'din. Furthermore, they had not met any meaningful opposition before this, and thought they were just taking on a few thousand wetlanders.

 

In short, the Shaido at Malden had no recon, no mobility, and no organization. This wasn't an issue of being good at sieges.

[solarz]

If anything, the Battle of Malden speaks to Perrin's formidableness as a general.

 

First, he systematically dismantled the Shaido's scouting network.

 

Then he learned everything he could about the Shaido while keeping them in the dark.

 

Then he made an astute alliance with the Seanchan that provided him with the means of defeating the Shaido.

 

Finally, he devised and carried out a battle plan that exploited the Shaido's weaknesses and played to his own advantage to maximum effect.

 

In fact, the Shaido had already lost before the first arrow flew.

[Sabio]

On ‎9‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 11:40 AM, solarz said:

 

I don't recall where it said those weren't "ordinary" dark hounds. How were those dark hounds different?

 

Channelers need rest, yes, that's why you would want to rotate them. Sa'angreal, however, don't need to be rotated. You just need one. Graendal can only mess up non-channeler's dreams because channelers can ward their dreams.

 

The Shadow have their own channelers, yes, but Sanderson forgot that the Aiel had some 4000 channeling Wise Ones that was just sitting there, drinking tea.

In the BWB says only the surest hand with a bow or sword had any chance, yet this may no longer be enough.  In recent times a new breed of darkhound has been reported, one that can only be killed by the one power.  In TDR Lan killed a darkhound, and Moriane said Lord Brend may learn one of his darkhounds was dead.  Then Perin managed to kill one with his bow.  Yet Rand encountered different ones when he chopped their heads of only to see them reform. 

 

 

Edited September 15, 2018 by Sabio

[solarz]

25 minutes ago, Sabio said:

In the BWB says only the surest hand with a bow or sword had any chance, yet this may no longer be enough.  In recent times a new breed of darkhound has been reported, one that can only be killed by the one power.  In TBR Lan killed a darkhound, and Moriane said Lord Brend may learn one of his darkhounds was dead.  Then Perin managed to kill one with his bow.  Yet Rand encountered different ones when he chopped their heads of only to see them reform. 

 

In either case, channelers would be able to handle the dark hounds.