How strong was Jesus Rand?

[solarz]

From AMOL:

 

Too weak. Each shield was too weak, and yet their attacks had him worried. They had come quickly, at least three dozen Dreadlords, each trying to cut him off from the Source. This was dangerous—that they had anticipated him. That was why they had hit Lan so hard with channelers. To draw Rand out.

Rand fought off the attacks, but none of them were in danger of truly shielding him. A single person could not cut off someone holding as much saidin as he was. They should have . . .

He saw it right before it happened. The other attacks were cover, feints. One that was coming would be created by a circle of men and women. A man would be leading.

There! A shield slammed against him, but Rand had had just enough time to prepare. He channeled Spirit in the tempest, weaving by instinct from Lews Therin's memories, and rebuffed the shield. He shoved it away, but could not destroy it.

Light! That had to be a full circle. Rand grunted as the shield slipped closer to him; it made a vibrant pattern in the sky, motionless despite the tempest. Rand resisted it with his own surge of Spirit and Air, holding it back as if it were a knife hanging above his throat.

He lost control of the tempest.

Lightning crashed around him. The other channelers wove to enhance the storm—they didn’t try to control it, for they didn’t need to. It being out of control served them, as at any moment, it could strike Rand.

He roared again, louder this time, more determined. I will beat you, Taim! I will finally do what I should have months ago!

But he did not let the anger, the wildness, force him into conflict. He couldn’t afford to. He had learned better than that.

This was not the place. He could not fight here. If he did, he would lose.

Rand pushed with a surge of strength, throwing back Taim’s shield, then used the moment of respite to weave a gateway. His Maidens went through immediately, and Rand, ducking his head against the wind, reluctantly followed.

 

It has been said throughout the book that a full circle of 13 Aes Sedai could shield any man, no matter how strong. Rand himself was shielded easily by a circle of 13 in LOC.

 

True, Rand was holding an angreal in the above passage, but normally, anything short of a sa'angreal would not have been enough to stop a full circle.

 

Worse yet, this was a circle of men and women. That meant a "full" circle might mean 72 instead of 13!

 

If Rand could rebuff a circle of 72 and still have enough strength to escape with a gateway, no wonder he wasn't worried about the circle of 13 shielding him when he went to the White Tower to see Egwene!

[wotfan4472]

No, a circle of thirteen Aes Sedai would still shield him no problem, no matter how powerful Rand gets. I think it is connected to the fact that men can be Turned easily by thirteen Aes Sedai and thirteen Myrdraal. I also think the Age of Legends may have created a shielding weave designed to specifically target male Aes Sedai, or any extremely powerful Aes Sedai of either gender. It is most likely they developed it during the War, but was probably forgotten by all except the Red Ajah.

Edited March 14, 2018 by wotfan4472

[TheSociopath]

no, I agree with Solarz here, if Rand was still only another aes sedai, he shouldn't have been able to single-handedly turn back the entire army at Maradon. Also, if hes supposed to be able to fight the DO on even footing, it makes sense of a kind that he could take on a full, complete circle.

[rand4747]

It took everything he had and he did have an Angreal, hes destroyed massive armys before even on his own with no angreal, like in the Eye of the world. He said he should not have gone to Maradon because it weakened him to attack too severely. As for the shielding there probably has just never been anyone who withstood a shield from 13, not that it isn't possible. Likely him fighting it off protects him, but its strong enough that even holding the source as much as he can they will cut him off easily. So perhaps its just 13 can shield anyone if they aren't fighting the shield with their own weaves.
A circle of 13 is only 13 times the strength of 1 person (unless they have angreal of their own) whereas angreal and saangreal make you orders of magnitude stronger, and a shield is still a weave so it can be overpowered with other weaves.

So it may be possible when he said a full circle attempting to shield him it could be the maximum possible.

[solarz]

4 hours ago, rand4747 said:

It took everything he had and he did have an Angreal, hes destroyed massive armys before even on his own with no angreal, like in the Eye of the world. He said he should not have gone to Maradon because it weakened him to attack too severely. As for the shielding there probably has just never been anyone who withstood a shield from 13, not that it isn't possible. Likely him fighting it off protects him, but its strong enough that even holding the source as much as he can they will cut him off easily. So perhaps its just 13 can shield anyone if they aren't fighting the shield with their own weaves.
A circle of 13 is only 13 times the strength of 1 person (unless they have angreal of their own) whereas angreal and saangreal make you orders of magnitude stronger, and a shield is still a weave so it can be overpowered with other weaves.

So it may be possible when he said a full circle attempting to shield him it could be the maximum possible.

 

In the Eye of the World, Rand used the power of the Eye to destroy that trolloc army.

 

Asmodean told Rand that a circle of 13 weakest women would overpower him without breaking a sweat. Asmodean was from the Age of Legends, where powerful channelers abound.

 

Having an angreal does help, as does being prepared, but everything we've seen indicates that any man, short of holding a sa'angreal, has no chance against a circle of 13. Yet, Rand was able to rebuff a shield from a circle of not only 13, but likely of 72!

 

Combine this with his nonchalance in the White Tower, it strongly indicates that Rand's power had grown beyond mortal limits.

[rand4747]

There was no special power to the eye, it was essentially just a massive well. He could not channel any more strongly with the eye than he could directly from Saidin.

[wotfan4472]

Their is an emphasis on thirteen channellers just learning with specific knowledge able to overwhelm anyone regardless of strength. All the Forsaken were as wary of Aes Sedai as Rand was because of this point. To fight off a Circle of Seventy Two, however would mean Rand had to be equal to its maximum strength with the angreal. Quite impressive!!

[rand4747]

They say in the books that the angreal and the Sa Angreal Boost your power hugely, its not just small increases. Someone with an Angreal may even already be more powerfull than a circle of 72.

But your connection to the one power is still the same, so your natural defense from holding the power probably isnt improved much if at all by the angreal or saangreal, however your weaves for fighting against the shield will be stronger.

[solarz]

3 hours ago, rand4747 said:

They say in the books that the angreal and the Sa Angreal Boost your power hugely, its not just small increases. Someone with an Angreal may even already be more powerfull than a circle of 72.

But your connection to the one power is still the same, so your natural defense from holding the power probably isnt improved much if at all by the angreal or saangreal, however your weaves for fighting against the shield will be stronger.

 

A sa'angreal will certainly be more powerful than a circle of 13, but an angreal would be nowhere near.

 

A circle of 72 is an entirely different matter, because you now have saidin and saidar working together. There are things you can do with both that you can't do with just one, even if you were using one of the Choedan Kal.