Eqwene's Seanchan woman dream

[Phiotr AlManera]

Tuon does it in KoD with Joline and the other one, forgot name, Teslyn?

[Elwinn Taron]

Tuon does "control" Joline, Teslyn and Edesina, but they are NOT linked, she controls each of them separately. She makes Teslyn try to do something to Mat, and makes Joline "feel pleasure".

[Nerevar]

I thought in KoD she had a a'dam on each hand and was shielding the third Aes Sedai? (you will not believe how long it took me to spell third, i was sure there was an e in it... how embarrasing)

 

I'm still not all that sure of the Seanchan knowing about Linking theory, the believe that the circle in falme which took an Aes Sedai was actually linked is flawed. When surrounded by 6(?) damane I think it would be hard to stop at least 1 weave successfully shielding you, they wouldn't need to be linked. And the other damane/Aes Sedai breaking into tears would just be because she was so ashamed of helping them and possibly wanting to help to stop the beating.

[cloglord]

i dont see the Seanchan having ever planned to try and hold the city.

 

 

They can maintain what they conquer as long as they have set up their forces right, and the fact that they have been planning this for months makes it very likely that they have set up their forces right.

 

Sending a land baced force through the Caralain Grass, setting up supply dumps for the to'raken force as they travel. Landing the to'raken and taking Tower, having the the Tower based force launch an internal attack as the land based force launch an external based assault to take the city in full.

 

Its simple, first you say they never plan to hold the city, then you say that they plan to create a beach head in the tower and conquer the city with ground forces. It can't be both. You can try and make it seem that I don't understand your posts, or was trying to take you out of context, but it is simply not the case. I'm not a moron, you started small, got excited about a theory, and tried to build things up to justify your position. The point I am making is that I quoted a VERY specific prophetic dream, and you told me I was interpreting things to fit my theory. I'm just pointing out that the pot was calling the kettle black.

 

For instance,

My main issue is that we KNOW the Seanchan attack is going to happen, and that it will happen via to'raken... and we know that this attack is going to be strong enough to shake the Aes Sedai to the core.

 

We do not KNOW that it will happen via to'raken anymore than I KNOW it will be a quick raid. In fact, the facts that you claim to know are derived from the very same prophecy as the fact that I claimed to know. Yet my fact is an interpretation and yours is cannon. Go figure.

 

I mentioned Murandy and Andor, because if you notice, The Seanchan do not hold any territory north of Almoth Plain. Therefore they would have to either march these hypothetical ground forces north most of the way through almoth plain to find a pass in the mountains of mist, so that they could head east through the Carlain grass to Tar Valon, OR they could march the much shorter and direct route through Murandy and/or Andor. If they go the uninhabited way, the distance is much, much, greater, and would take much longer.

 

I think ive been clear enough. You no longer have any right to expect me to take you seriously.

 

I agree, you have laid it out clearly for any who cares to read it. For the record I never felt it was my right for you, or anyone else, to take me seriously. I feel that if I am taken seroiusly, it is only because I've earned it. I prefer to be taken seriously for my willingness to confront anyone on any topic, even if that means the almighty Luckers. Certainly you have the right to not respond to any or all of my posts, but I have just as much right to reply to any and all of yours. If you are full of BS, I'll continue to call you on it, and if you are being unfairly critisized I'll continue to back you up. You don't have to take me seriously, I don't. After all, its just fiction; its just debate. Take it personally if you want, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Tuon does "control" Joline, Teslyn and Edesina, but they are NOT linked, she controls each of them separately.

 

Tuon did control Teslyn and Joline. She wore two of the bracelets (its in KoD ch. 9 ). But there is no evidence there of linking in the usual sense, nor is there any evidence that more than one a'dam can be worn on each arm. The text specifically states that Tuon wore one on each wrist. A third collar was place on Edesina, but that was just to keep her from interfering.

 

I'm not sure at all that the Seanchan can use a'dam in conventional linking, because the altered a'dam based link (in which the controller adds nothing) clearly is a proprietary, overriding kind of link.

 

This isn't really on topic, and I don't want to try to alter the course of the thread. I just wanted to throw this into the mix.

[Luckers]

Actually we do, through Nynaeve and Moghedian's usage in T'A'R we see that the convential a'dam creates a link on which the sul'dam can draw. Linked to two damane, the sul'dam would be able to draw on both. As indeed Tuon does. That sounds like a fairly conventional link to me.

 

As for more then one bracelet on each arm... why not? The bracelets are thing, you could fit five or six on each arm, for all that it would be a bit uncomfortable.

 

The fact is we have seen one sul'dam draw on two damane at the same time.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Actually we do, through Nynaeve and Moghedian's usage in T'A'R we see that the convential a'dam creates a link on which the sul'dam can draw.

 

Actually, Nynaeve and Moghedien's experience in T'A'R is what defined the a'dam link as a NON-conventional link. First, Nynaeve specifically stated that while she could wield it like her own weaving, everything was actually done through Moghedien. And Moghedien specified that only her own strength was being used.

 

Because we don't have Tuon's POV during the dual wielding episode, we don't know if she drew on Joline and Teslyn together, or if she used the two Aes Sedai independently. Its an important distinction, because its like the difference between wielding one big sword or a pair of knives. What we might call voluntary linking simply strengthens a single "sword". But while its possible to use a couple of "knives" effectively, you run out of dexterity long before you get to 13. If each leashed one is still treated as an independent entity, then it will be rare to find many sul'dam that can handle even two. Tuon is a very gifted leash holder, and I imagine her agility of mind allowed her to do with apparent ease what many, possibly even most others, could not do at all, or only with great difficulty.

 

All I'm saying is, we haven't seen this implemented on a large scale yet. I would imagine there is a reason for that. Certainly there were times in the battle with Rand in TPoD when it would have been useful for the Seanchan. But we never saw it before Tuon. I think its premature to jump to conclusions about what kind of linking sul'dam and damane can do.

[Luckers]

Actually, Nynaeve and Moghedien's experience in T'A'R is what defined the a'dam link as a NON-conventional link. First, Nynaeve specifically stated that while she could wield it like her own weaving, everything was actually done through Moghedien. And Moghedien specified that only her own strength was being used.

 

Yes, exactly. The link alows for whoever is linked to the bracelet to draw on the strength of the one leashed. Ergo, the sul'dam can draw on the power through the damane... are you really contesting this?

 

Incidently... i said conventional a'dam, not conventional link, so im not really sure you were replying to me.

 

Because we don't have Tuon's POV during the dual wielding episode, we don't know if she drew on Joline and Teslyn together, or if she used the two Aes Sedai independently. Its an important distinction, because its like the difference between wielding one big sword or a pair of knives. What we might call voluntary linking simply strengthens a single "sword". But while its possible to use a couple of "knives" effectively, you run out of dexterity long before you get to 13. If each leashed one is still treated as an independent entity, then it will be rare to find many sul'dam that can handle even two. Tuon is a very gifted leash holder, and I imagine her agility of mind allowed her to do with apparent ease what many, possibly even most others, could not do at all, or only with great difficulty.

 

Look, i doubt that very strongly. We see through Nynaeve that a convential a'dam forms a link whereby the leashed ones power is channeleable by the leash-holder in a manner that shows the formation of a link. Put in two damane and the same effect occurs, but with more power. To my mind the description of a conventional a'dam precludes the posibility of it working like wielding knives, as you suggest.

 

And lets not forget the incident with Sherraine getting captured. The fact is that whilst it is possible that they managed to place someone much, much stronger then Sherraine there to shield her, i dont see it. In KoD Sherraine is able to shield and contain Joline, Teslyn and Edesina, none of which are weak. Sherraine was already holding the source, yet she was obviously and easily shielded... that combined with the description of the circle they put around her, of Ryma falling down but no change to the weaving... it all reeks of a circle to me.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Put in two damane and the same effect occurs, but with more power.

 

I'm sorry, but thats pure assumption. The reason I compared the a'dam link to a conventional link is that a conventional link adds all the users strength together, including the wielder's strength. So we already know that the a'dam link does NOT combine strength in the same way that a conventional link does. Thats a fact.

 

Now, that does not preclude the possibility that the a'dam link allows for damane's strengths to be added, excluding only the sul'dam. But in none of the situations we've seen has a circle been necessary. We know certain people are extremely skilled at shielding, able to hold even those who are stronger than they are. We also know it is much easier to shield people before they embrace the source. Someone with great skill in shielding is the kind of person likely to be included in raiding parties like the ones on Toman Head.

[Luckers]

I dont think it is assumption, based on what we witness of the way Nynaeve draws on Moghedian's power i think there is some pretty solid basis for the suggestion.

 

And additionally, i never said the a'dam was a convential link, so im still not sure i know what you mean by that.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I dont think it is assumption, based on what we witness of the way Nynaeve draws on Moghedian's power i think there is some pretty solid basis for the suggestion.

 

Nynaeve's use of Moghedien is the argument against a'dam's being able to combine strength. Nynaeve had access to Moghedien's strength, and Moghedien's strength only. The a'dam did not combine their strength, the way that a conventional link would have.

 

And additionally, i never said the a'dam was a convential link, so im still not sure i know what you mean by that.

 

I know that, but you're assuming it has the same properties as a conventional link, ie, that it allows the head of the link to wield the combined power of the others in the link as if they were one channeler. What I'm pointing out is that there are several ways in which we already know it is not like a conventional link, and that adding strength is one of those ways. It isolates the sul'dam's strength from the damane's. Again, Nynaeve is the evidence. When Nynaeve used the a'dam on Moghedien, she had access to Moghedien's strength only. That is not how a conventional link adds strength.

 

If the a'dam forced link isolates the sul'dam's strength from the damane's, does it also isolate the damanes' from each other? We don't know. You assume it doesn't. I say thats premature.

 

And we only have one comfirmable, non-POV example of one sul'dam wearing more than one bracelet. We don't know if, mentally, she was wielding Joline's and Teslyn's strength as a single combined entity, or if they register and are used as two, but Tuon is skilled enough to handle it.

[Wanderer]

Frankly I would like to stay out of this, since it seems that this topic has become a way to use words to twist facts.

But some things are still interesting to read. So I say this: pls stay close to facts, coversation shouldn't be a singular words spinning match...the books aren't clear but don't add confusion to what we already have.

 

For example:

Linked to two damane' date=' the sul'dam would be able to draw on both. As indeed Tuon does. That sounds like a fairly conventional link to me.

[/quote']

 

Incidently... i said conventional a'dam' date=' not conventional link, so im not really sure you were replying to me. [/quote']

[Luckers]

Nynaeve's use of Moghedien is the argument against a'dam's being able to combine strength. Nynaeve had access to Moghedien's strength, and Moghedien's strength only. The a'dam did not combine their strength, the way that a conventional link would have.

 

No, its an argument against the contribution of sul'dam strength to the link. Nothing more. I'm sorry, i just really disagree with your premise here.

 

I know that, but you're assuming it has the same properties as a conventional link, ie, that it allows the head of the link to wield the combined power of the others in the link as if they were one channeler. What I'm pointing out is that there are several ways in which we already know it is not like a conventional link, and that adding strength is one of those ways. It isolates the sul'dam's strength from the damane's. Again, Nynaeve is the evidence. When Nynaeve used the a'dam on Moghedien, she had access to Moghedien's strength only. That is not how a conventional link adds strength.

 

Again, sorry but no. All that it points out... ALL that it points out it is that the wearer of the bracelet contributes no strength but has access to the strength of any who wears the collar. Since we have seen that one bracelet wearer can be linked to more then one collar... im sorry, but again, i really disagree. There is no premise for your argument.

[Lord Beric]

I want to step in really quickly to speak to something RAW said earlier, with regards to Moghedien and Nynaeve being linked by the a'dam in Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

And Moghedien specified that only her own strength was being used.

 

At the time Nynaeve was using one of the "misty" ter'angreal, so she was unable to channel more than the little bit required to make the ter'angreal work. I think exactly what Moghedien said was "You add nothing to the link here as you are."

 

Now, while this wouldn't act as definitive proof that an a'dam IS a traditional link, it does mean that the possibility isn't completely precluded.

 

That said, I'm going to withold judgment until we see more definitive proof.

[RobertAlexWillis]

No, its an argument against the contribution of sul'dam strength to the link.

 

LOL ... the contribution of strength by the controlling member of a circle is one of the basic characteristics of a conventional link.

 

All that it points out... ALL that it points out it is that the wearer of the bracelet contributes no strength but has access to the strength of any who wears the collar.

 

Which makes it inherently different from a conventional link in the way it adds together the strength of those within the link. If it is different in that sense, why does it have to be the same in the other sense? Access to both damane's strength does not have to mean access to both damane's strength as a single entity.

 

If forming circles were as easy as putting on several bracelets, why don't we see the Seanchan doing it alot more? Even in the group around Ryma on Toman Head, there was one sul'dam to one bracelet. Why bother with a bunch of sul'dam if its so simple to control many damane with just one?

 

I don't think its as clear cut as you're describing, not at all.

[Nerevar]

I don't think there is enough evidence either way, basically because Damane are alot rarer than Sul'dams, so Sul'dams seem to only ever have the one damane at a time, simply because the amount of damane. Therefore though the possible linking theory could be true, I don't think its happened before and we haven't got the evidence to say for sure.

 

Try and find out when RJ has finished AMoL or is answering any unanswered questions.

[cloglord]

I think that there is a pretty simple way to decide this.

 

We know that once a channeler starts channeling they are in essence instantly addicted. If a suldame is channeling the strength of the damane through herself then she is in effect channeling the OP. Yet we see no indication that suldame are addicted to channeling, and in fact it seems that Tuon easily resists the temptation to learn. It seems pretty obvious to me that Suldame do not actually channel, but instead use their mental link to direct the channeling of the Damane. In a conventional link it is different, the controller of the circle is directly weaving, and feels to be full of the OP. The POV's we have of people directing a circle, show these people feeling the adictive rush of channeling, we have no evidence of suldame feeling similarly, in fact we have evidence that they do not.

 

I think its pretty conclusive anyway.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Look ... I said when I asked this question that I didn't want to sidetrack the thread ... and that is apparently exactly what happened. Mea Culpa. I don't think anyones going to budge on this, so lets just agree to disagree and move on.

[cloglord]

Since all interest in this thread dried up when, as RAW points out, we got sidetracked by the Suldame/damane linking thing, I think its safe to post an interesting passage that might have some bearing on the linking debate. Luckers used an example of an aes sedai being captured by a circle of suldam/damane, and originally suggested that the use of the term "circle" was indicative of a linked circle. I'm not sure if Luckers continued to try and support this position, and frankly am too tired/lazy to look it up. THe point of the passage that I'm about to quote is how easy it is to read something and assume that it says one thing, when in fact it doesn't say that at all. For example, NS Chapter 9,...

 

All of the sisters save Merean moved away and formed a circle...

 

That says that they linked right? How about I finish the sentence?

 

All of the sisters save Merean moved a way and formed a circle around the ter' angreal.

 

That's a little bit more ambiguous, but I'll admit that the first time I read it, I'd alreay decided that they had formed a link. The next sentence gives it away for what it is if you are paying close enough attention though.

Kneeling on the stone floor, each embraced Saidar.

 

What? They clearly were not linked if they had not yet embraced Saidar, yet somehow I managed to read it incorrectly. Not only did I read it incorrectly, I continued to believe what I should not have, despite imeadiate proof to the contrary. Go figure. I'm not picking on Lucker's here, I just thought that it was interesting that I could completely misread a blip about circles as meaning a link, when something similar was such a big point of contention here, (with some apparent spill over into other threads as well.)

[cloglord]

So, to bump this thread back into discussion.....

 

 

I ran across another telling bit of prophetic dream that relates here. Egwene, besides dreaming of a faceless Seanchan woman with a sword helping her out, had another dream about the Seanchan that totally slipped by me. In ACoS Ch. 10 she dreams of a golden hawk that touches her, and they are tied together.

 

TBWB Pg. 157

The Seanchan Imperial Sigil is a golden hawk in flight, clutching three lightning bolts in its claws...if the Empress (or Emperor) is present it is fringed in gold; if the heir to the throne is present, it is fringed in blue.

 

I think that the faceless Seanchan woman is Tuon. It would fulfill this other bit about the golden hawk, and her facelessness could be explained by the fact that she has not yet chosen a new name, and will not even think about it, due to the bad luck associated with it. I think that what she needs from Egwene is the Traveling weave, so that she can ascent the crystal throne, and restore order by way of that unwavering sword strapped to her back. After all, what good is reclaiming old lands if she loses the Empire?

 

Hmmm, what if Tuon agreed to free the Damane so long as they swore an oath of obediance to the empress on the oath rod.? Speculicious :)

[Guest Anonymous!]

Actually, I had seen theory of the oath rod as an assurance given to Tuon by Egwene before, and I happen to support this idea. Of course the idea I had supported was Egwene to accept a Fourth Oath for all Aes Sedai, which would shake the White Tower to its core. But I think the Damane guarantee is just as likely as a fourth oath. Good job on the quote Cloglord, I missed that.

[cloglord]

As far as the Damane/Aes Sedai oathrod thing goes, I wonder if this isn't a chance for Egwene to remove the need for Aes Sedai oaths altogether, by giving the oath rod to Tuon, to help her keep her Damane in check.

 

We have been building towards some catasclysmic Seanchan society change, since the first Suldame was collared, it has been nearly the entirety of Eagain/Lewlin Shipless's plotline. I think that an oathrod solution would fit the bill nicely. Also, I think that the uncovering of the BA and it's oaths, will point out the futility of the oaths in holding Aes Sedai to a higher standard, as even darkfriends can get around the oaths. I see it as a way to wrap up both things quite nicely. I would be interested to read the theory about this that you mentioned Anonymous!.

[Guest Anonymous!]

Cloglord: Do you ever get a really bad feeling when an idea pops into your head? An idea that you detest and so you are sure it is going to happen? Well when I read your post, I thought to myself "Not unless they find a second oath rod." And then Point A (2nd oath rod) connected with Point B (Shaido), and suddenly I realized that Jordan may have accomplished even less in KoD then I realized. Wouldn't it suck if Jordan pulled the Shaido back into the damn story because they have a second oath rod?

 

Anyway, my bastardized version of the Fourth Oath Concept can be found here.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=251834&highlight=#251834

 

It's really long. I was trying to tie together all the outstanding dreams and prophecies about Egwene into a reasonable construct for Egwene's storyline in AMoL. I may go back and edit it with your quote above. Here are the relevant parts:

 

Now that the White Tower is unified under 1 Amyrlin, something symbolized by “two ravens” will shake it to its core. Mat has an insane amount of symbolism connecting him to ravens: his ring has a fox startling ravens, ashandarei has two ravens on it, the prophecy of the dragon says “fox that makes the ravens fly”, he now holds the title Prince of the Ravens, and even in one of Egwene’s dreams Mat has a pair of Ravens perched on his shoulders (4). Not to mention Mat has a long history of fixing other peoples problems (particularly the Aes Sedai, and Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve) to achieve his own objectives. He helped the Supergirls by taking a letter to Morgase so he could escape Tar Valon. He helped the Supergirls get the bowl of winds and fixed their Sea Folk problems in Ebou Dar so he could get Elayne to Andor. He took those Aes Sedai out of Ebou Dar so he could escape quietly. He just has a history of cleaning up other peoples messes.

 

So Mat has to do something that shakes the Aes Sedai to its core. In fact it causes Aes Sedai to break off from Egwene’s unified White Tower causing some Aes Sedai to be stilled (“Some of those drops caught fire in midair and vanished”) and other Aes Sedai to set up different sects under new Amyrlins (“Others fell around the short column, each supporting a tiny, flickering white flame”). What could Mat do that would cause such a divide? I don’t know, but here’s a whacky theory: it’s the three oaths.

 

One of the major themes out of Egwene’s storyline in CoT is that at the Heart/Core of the Aes Sedai are the three oaths. I think Mat gets Egwene to alter the three oaths or possibly add a fourth oath. There is a violent reaction to the three oaths change, but Mat gets what he came for and leaves before he has to deal with the fall out. Why does he go to tar Valon? I don’t know. There are a number of plausible reasons.

 

So why does Egwene have to alter the three oaths? Because Tuon is there with a massive army and demands it of Egwene. Tuon knows that Sul’dam can channel. She also knows that other people have that information too. It’s just a matter of time before that information tears her nation apart. According to the Dark Prophecy “Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes.” We know from the seed is the Seanchan. The Seanchan must correct some ancient wrong before the Final Battle. The ancient wrong is the collaring of Damane. But the Seanchan think all Aes Sedai are power hungry warmongers who want to enslave all people who can’t channel. So Tuon makes a deal with Egwene, all Sul’Dam and Damane will fall under the Aes Sedai in exchange for a guarantee that the Aes Sedai will never try to take over or subvert the Seanchan kingdom. The guarantee will be a fourth oath or a modification to the three oaths. I think Mat will be the one who forces Egwene and Tuon to the peace table, and he will be the one who suggests the modification to the three oaths.

 

[Luckers]

You see my thought in reguards to that; especially the part about the seed slaying ancient wrong, is that the oaths are removed in order for the Aes Sedai to respond to the Seanchan assault against the Tower.

 

I mean concider the position the Aes Sedai would be in if the Seanchan do manage to solidify their hold on the Tower; with sister and warders being in no immediate danger they can't use the power as a weapon; likely they couldn't even use it to form a gateway to allow incursion into the tower by normal soldiers, it would come to close to using the power to help one man kill another.

 

Complete conjecture on my part, but meh.

[cloglord]

I just had one of those lightning strike ideas.

 

We know that Egwene has dreamed of a large line of Aes Sedai being collored. We also know that she is fated to make some sort of a treaty/truce/cooperative arrangement with the Seanchan. On the surface these two things seem entirely at odds, As we know that Egwene has zero tolerance of collaring women who can channel, and the seanchan, Tuon in particular, has no interest in dealing with Aes SEdai, as she views them as dangerous animals. Then the idea hit. What about the BA?

 

There is currently a hunt on for the BA. Egwene, has in the past countenanced the collaring of a DF, Moghedian, as a way to make use of her abilities, and instead of outright execution. The Seanchan don't even see women who can channel as people, so a BA sister would likely not be seen as a DF, but rather as a vicious dog, or at worst shadowspawn, a concept that they don't really get anyway. What if the collared sisters that Egwene dreamed of, were the captured BA sisters, and the worst punishment Egwene could think of for an aes sedai traitor, would be to imprisoned for life as a dog. This would explain the importance of the fact that there are relatively few DF's among the suldame, would give Egwene and Tuon the basis for the foretold collaboration, asnd would nicely and consicely wrap up the BA hunt plotline.

 

What do you think?