Rand, LTT and the taint

[Luckers]

Except that humans can access and weave the Power that drives time .... talk to dead people .... etc etc.

 

No offence Robert, but is that in any way less believable then some of the things christians believe? Not that i believe in either, im just saying that fiction is rarely more absurd then reality, when you get down to it.

 

There are definitely variables in RJ's imagination that don't exist in the real world, especially in the influences that contribute to Rand's mental state. So any diagnosis from this world is bound to be at a minimum, incomplete, which in the world of diagnosis and treatment, is inaccurate.

 

Well, actually, again, sorry to disapoint, but many people believe they retain memories and have interactions with past incarnations of themselves. In reality nothing RJ has suggested has not also been suggested at one stage by real people as a religious reality... moreover... most of these things have been suggested by christians also at one stage or another.

 

I totally agree that psychology is a "pseudo-science". All talk therapy depends on cognitive methods, which cannot be quantified, and therefore cannot have the scientific method applied to them.

 

Psychiatry could become a true science in the future, if our understanding of human brain chemistry becomes sufficient. But frankly, that would terrify me, and I don't think it will ever happen.

 

I cant really talk to psychiatry... being the medicinal path--i never studied it. But frankly, psychology as physics envy....

 

I've always felt that this was a dangerous trend in literary criticism. Meaning achieved from a fantastical situation, rather than a merely fictional situation, can be .... less than reliable in truly realistic, much less actually real, situations. As a purely mental exercise its fine, but humans are really bad at making anything purely mental.

 

Yet at the same time nothin humans concider are truly without manipulation from the mental state. I mean, concider a door... a plank of wood, a combination of atoms... yet when a human sees it, it contains the barring of threates, the acceptance of allies. It protects and exclude, opens and contains. Take this further, to something we invest with emotion--a nation for instance... a nation has no physical state... its a contained area of land, and yet, somehow we visit something--a combination of carbon atoms--with importance.

 

The physical world is altered by the conceptual. We embue the world with meaning that does not exist outside of us. And the fact is that the meaning of a world that does not exist embues the real world with meaning too. If you think it doesn't look at religion--not your own, no one can be objective about their own religion. But others... look at what Muslims do... Hindus, Buddhists, Christians... and tell me that you think a conceptual reality cant be as inffluential as a real state.

 

Fiction is as powerful. Our culture is created by fiction. The TV raises most our kids. We are the product of our imagination.

 

Now tell me the examination of fiction isn't important.

 

A very specific feature of fantasy-fiction lies in the fact that the author makes up things. This means that the reader is very dependant of the authors explanation. You know, if RJ says something, then it's like that. The succes of this forum can be a bit explained by this.

 

Very, very true. Read a book called the French Leuitenants Woman, John Fowles plays on your expectations of authorial omniscience to screw you over. Its brilliant.

 

But RJ isn't Fowles... in truth, Fowles is a much better writer, but a far worse author. So i do concede your right. My issue is that despite that rJ strives for realism. He has introduced an element that doesnt exist, but has then proceeded to create a world as realistic as possible, based on that element.

 

Psychology is, at its core, a system of microscopes through which we can strive to understand the conceptual world in which we all live... the same as logic, philosophy, theology and sociology. And yes, it can be applied to fiction... because art imitates life, and life imitates art. No matter how absurd.

 

Quote:

Well, saidin had a taint, Rand channeled saidin.

Channeling tainted saidin causes insanity, Rand hears a voice.

Any explanation wich says that voice isn't connected to the taint goes a bit against logic.

 

 

 

According to that logic:

 

saidin had a taint, Fedwin Morr channeled saidin.

Channeling tainted saidin causes insanity, Fedwin Morr's mind reverted to that of a 5 year old.

Rand must have the mind of a 5 year old.

 

OR

 

saidin had a taint, new student at Black Tower channeled saidin.

Channeling tainted saidin causes insanity, new student started screaming that spiders were under his skin after two days.

Rand must believe that he has spiders crawling under his skin.

 

The taint causes insanity.Is Rand totally sane? Probably not.

Does that mean that LTT has to be part of his insanity. no. In RJ's world it could very well be an insane former dragon speaking to Rand.

At the end of the day, no matter how much we debate this. If we find the truth the only reason that would matter is : 'cos RJ said so.

 

Actually thats fallacious... its a causation fallacy.

 

Your statement is this.

 

PREMISE

 

1. Channeling tainted saidin causes insanity.

2. [insert person] channeled tainted saidin and experienced [insert symptom].

 

CONCLUSION

 

3. [inset person] channeled saidin, therefore they experienced any symptom experienced by any other channeler of saidin.

 

This is not a constructed logical process. For one, insanity is not a reality... its a description. This description fits any number of abnormal mental states. From men hearing voices to those seeing spiders. A causation fallacy. You misplace the effect for the cause. The taint for the spiders, or the voices.

 

The proper sequence goes...

 

PREMISE.

 

1. Channeling tainted saidin causes abnormal mental states.

2. Rand channels tainted saidin.

3. Rand experiences an abnormal mental state.

 

CONCLUSION

 

4. Therefore Rand's abnormal mental state is caused by channeling tainted saidin.

 

This doesn't nessasarily prove that its true, it just proves its logical validity as a theoretical process. It progresses as a theory without any fallacious material.

 

I blame star trek for this. Too few people seem to know the actual nature of logic.

[RobertAlexWillis]

No offence Robert, but is that in any way less believable then some of the things christians believe?

 

LOL, no in fact we talk to dead people too. But thats not the point. Just because there are some things in the real world that fall outside the realm of psychology doesn't mean that psychology can then be applied, at will and accurately, to fantastical situations.

 

Well, actually, again, sorry to disapoint, but many people believe they retain memories and have interactions with past incarnations of themselves.

 

See above.

 

Now tell me the examination of fiction isn't important.

 

I didn't say that the examination of fiction wasn't important .... :? I was simply enjoining caution in the depth and type of meaning we derive from certain fantastical situations/characters/events.

 

I imagine that I'm far to practical to make a good critic though ... of any kind of literature.

 

Read a book called the French Leuitenants Woman,

 

I HHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTEEEEEEEEEE that book. With a serious, completely irrational, but incredibly passionate enmity.

 

That has nothing to do with your accurate description. I just really hate that book.

 

I blame star trek for this. Too few people seem to know the actual nature of logic.

 

I guess we should get them all off of Vulcanology.

[Luckers]

LOL, no in fact we talk to dead people too. But thats not the point. Just because there are some things in the real world that fall outside the realm of psychology doesn't mean that psychology can then be applied, at will and accurately, to fantastical situations.

 

My point was more that psychology as a whole EXISTS to be applied to fantastical situations, irrelevant of wether that situation has the illusion of reality, or is addmitted fiction. The fact is the majority of the conceptual world is illusion that only has support through its wide-ranging acceptance. In fact my big problem is that psychology tries so hard to pretend its a verifiable science... and in part it is. But it deals with the mind, and the mind is a construct... the more it tries to be like physics, the more it fails.

 

Frankly psychology was created to try and reason the fictions with which we live our lives... why not the fictions we enjoy in our live also.

 

I didn't say that the examination of fiction wasn't important .... I was simply enjoining caution in the depth and type of meaning we derive from certain fantastical situations/characters/events.

 

I don't want to say it, but i think the same of religion. Both that i suggest caution, and that i think the examination of it is important.

 

My point is that just because a thing isn't physically real, doesn't mean it isn't as significant as the ground we walk on. We are conceptual beings, Robert, and we've invented tools to aid with the rationalisation of that conceptualisation... why not use them?

 

I HHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTEEEEEEEEEE that book. With a serious, completely irrational, but incredibly passionate enmity.

 

That has nothing to do with your accurate description. I just really hate that book.

 

Lol... i studied it at school. i suspect i hate it more. I respect it though.

 

I guess we should get them all off of Vulcanology.

 

Probably.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The fact is the majority of the conceptual world is illusion that only has support through its wide-ranging acceptance.

 

I'm sure the irony of your characterization of that statement as "fact" is not lost on you. What if the idea of an illusory conceptual reality is itself, the illusion? :D

 

This is coming back down to our differences on the nature of objective and subjective reality, which are so prevalent in our respective ways of thinking that they color everything we eventually discuss in here.

 

So ... um ... OK.

 

I don't want to say it, but i think the same of religion.

 

Its OK Luckers, I know how you feel. And thats a very consistent way for you to look at it.

 

We are conceptual beings, Robert, and we've invented tools to aid with the rationalisation of that conceptualisation... why not use them?

 

Again, I never said don't use them. I said use them carefully. Scissors are very useful tools, but my brother once cut off the end of his finger with a pair.

 

Lol... i studied it at school. i suspect i hate it more. I respect it though.

 

I seriously considered dropping the class that made me read it, in my second year of college. When we were past it in the course, I burned my copy. :D

[Phiotr AlManera]

I must admit my attempt into the wonderfull world of logic :? was a bit simplistic.

What I meant to say is that Rand hears a voice inside his head. This disqualifies Rand from being called normal, given RJ's realism and Semirhage's statements. To say here that this voice is not really abnormal or not connected to the taint...

According to that logic:

No Paladin, that's not my logic. Also, I mentionned above my views on the relation between the taint and insanity.

 

My issue is that despite that rJ strives for realism. He has introduced an element that doesnt exist, but has then proceeded to create a world as realistic as possible, based on that element.

Yes, I agree but on this topic I think LTT's voice falls unther the category 'an element that doesn't excist' or more specificaly an element RJ altered. A bit like peaches being poisoness in randland.

 

Oh, Luckers and Robert, after reading your posts I'm beginning to question if I'm actually reading this or if it's just in my head.

[Beckon]

Luckers you missed the point with the whole Premise/Conclusion thing...

 

Ph'iotr Al'Manera said basically, Rand is mentally unstable which is caused by the taint. Therefore anything else unusual going on in his head is also caused by the taint. This is illogical and that's what RAW was adressing.

 

The fact that he's exhibiting more than one symptom does not mean that all the symptoms have the same cause.

 

Rand is mentally unstable because of the taint. Rand has LTT in his head because he's the Dragon Reborn. Granted the first may make him more susceptible to the second but I don't believe it's directly cause/effect.

[Phiotr AlManera]

Wow, I don't even know there are other symptoms of mental instability besides the voice.

Apparently my posts aren't really clear, I'll try to formulate them more clearly.

[Beowolf]

I think Rand has LTT in his head because he's mentally unstable...

 

Like I said, I think Rand has a dual-personality disorder(whatever the real name is) and one of those two personalities "became" LTT by somehow acessing all of his memories from his past life as LTT. This would make Rand mostly sane, with the only major exeption being his dual-personality disorder. This fits with everything, invluding what RAW said in response to my first post. However, I think all people have past life memories in them, they just are completly unable to access them, except for the few that go bonkers(like Rand).

 

In case you haven't noticed, I'm not going to get sucked into this whole argument about Logic and Psychology. :lol:

[phlpr23]

I think Rand has LTT in his head because he's mentally unstable...

 

Like I said, I think Rand has a dual-personality disorder(whatever the real name is) and one of those two personalities "became" LTT by somehow acessing all of his memories from his past life as LTT. This would make Rand mostly sane, with the only major exeption being his dual-personality disorder. This fits with everything, invluding what RAW said in response to my first post. However, I think all people have past life memories in them, they just are completly unable to access them, except for the few that go bonkers(like Rand).

 

-I view Lewis Therin in Rand's head somewhat differently ... It is my belief that the Creator passed Lewis Therin down inorder for Rand to succeed. I'll now state why I have this belief ...

 

When Rand was going after Sammael he ran across as mysterous "wanderer" and they cast balefire and the streams connected, the wanderer is of course Moridin and he soley uses the True power. After this, we have Rand continually growing dissy and having problems using the OP, we also have Rand seeing Moridin in his head, along with Lewis Therin recognizing him ... I find this as being of some importance mainly because Moridin is the Dark One's champion (and in one of the visions Rand sees Moridin being in discomfort just like Rand has been himself when handling the OP) so Rand and Moridin have really kind of cancelled each other out, but ... Rand still has Lewis Therin (Who is probably the greatest male channeler of ... all time) who is able to handle the OP with no side affects. Thus giving the Light an advantage.

[Luckers]

I'm sure the irony of your characterization of that statement as "fact" is not lost on you. What if the idea of an illusory conceptual reality is itself, the illusion?

 

Of course. Everything is an illusion. Except my coolness. Oh yeah!

 

Again, I never said don't use them. I said use them carefully. Scissors are very useful tools, but my brother once cut off the end of his finger with a pair.

 

I can buy that. In fact i think thats fairly wise.

 

I seriously considered dropping the class that made me read it, in my second year of college. When we were past it in the course, I burned my copy.

 

Lol. I just stole my teachers copy and read her notes.

 

Oh, Luckers and Robert, after reading your posts I'm beginning to question if I'm actually reading this or if it's just in my head.

 

It's just in your head, but what a fun place to be.

 

I must admit my attempt into the wonderfull world of logic was a bit simplistic.

What I meant to say is that Rand hears a voice inside his head. This disqualifies Rand from being called normal, given RJ's realism and Semirhage's statements. To say here that this voice is not really abnormal or not connected to the taint...

 

I agree. I think. To be honest im near to going cross-eyed from this whole thread.

 

Luckers you missed the point with the whole Premise/Conclusion thing...

 

Ph'iotr Al'Manera said basically, Rand is mentally unstable which is caused by the taint. Therefore anything else unusual going on in his head is also caused by the taint. This is illogical and that's what RAW was adressing.

 

The fact that he's exhibiting more than one symptom does not mean that all the symptoms have the same cause.

 

Rand is mentally unstable because of the taint. Rand has LTT in his head because he's the Dragon Reborn. Granted the first may make him more susceptible to the second but I don't believe it's directly cause/effect.

 

Well Beckon, no, i dont believe that i did miss the point--i just wasn't addressing it. For starters i was addressing Paladin, not ph'iotr. Paladin was attacking his logic, but in doing so was being fallacious himself. That was the point i was addressing.

 

I was not addressing the possibility that the any of his mental conditions could have been caused by something other then the taint, i was laying out the argument FOR it being caused by the taint in the logical method. As i suspect i stated.

 

Question, though. What are rands other symptoms? The nausea and images of Moridin, and the ta'veren telepathy are neither one caused by the taint.

[phlpr23]

Question, though. What are rands other symptoms? The nausea and images of Moridin, and the ta'veren telepathy are neither one caused by the taint.

 

-Correct. Somehow all of these symptoms are connected because of the balefire connection, and the fact that Moridin was using the True power. I have no idea how I could go about explaining it though lol ... I've heard others try, but their explanation were kinda stretching it. Guess we'll have to wait to see if Robert Jordan explains it somewhat in the last book.

[Luckers]

The ta'veren telepathy isn't from the balefire, but nor is it of the Taint.

[phlpr23]

The ta'veren telepathy isn't from the balefire, but nor is it of the Taint.

 

-It would depend on your naming of it. You call it ta'veren because of its similiarity to the Rand/Mat/Perrin connection, but it seems somehow different. Heck, you might be able to go as far to say that Rand's ta'veren woreoff on Moridin through their balefire connection and now Moridin is also slighty a ta'veren. <- I'm not saying I believe that, just a what if lol.

[Luckers]

No, im actually speaking of the link between the ta'veren, which is seperate from the link to Moridin, and seems to be a fucntion of the increasing strength of the pull between ta'veren.

 

I do agree with u though.

[BrainFireBob]

Rand randomly speaking his thoughts aloud- a growing phenomena, bouts of intense paranoia, and generally abnormal behavior- difficult to see, because it's normally from his POV. Impulsiveness, recklessness, an increased sense of immortality, severe dissociate behavior (although that one he's doing to himself deliberately.) RJ's strength as a writer is to sink you into the POV's bias- think about how Rand comes across. He takes LTT and his knowledge increasingly in stride- and the first sign of insanity is not to care if you're insane. He suffers from severe bouts of megalomania, as well.

 

Some is stress. The fun question is: What's LTT, what's from stress, and what's the Taint?

[RobertAlexWillis]

What's LTT, what's from stress, and what's the Taint?

 

Truthfully, its impossible to separate them, thats what makes Rand's situation so complicated. I imagine thats the very thing you were pointing out though. Like so many phenomena in real or realistic situations, its not so cut and dried as one cause, one effect.

[Beckon]

Wow' date=' I don't even know there are other symptoms of mental instability besides the voice.

Apparently my posts aren't really clear, I'll try to formulate them more clearly.[/quote']

 

The other symptoms of mental instability would be things like him flying off in a rage with little to no cause which he does on a few occassions. Other characters have wondered and worried about his sanity countless times before Rand ever complains about LTT in his head.

 

LTT in his head IMO is a product of the fact that he's the rebirth of the man. He would be there even if saidin was clean or Rand never channeled. It's seperate from the encroaching insanity.

 

At the same time though, the insanity may be making Rand more susceptible to LTTs attempts to take over. I think of it sort of like an immune deficiency. Someone with AIDS doesn't die of AIDS, they die of some other illness or infection that they are unable to fight off because of the AIDS.

 

You don't have to have AIDS to get an infection but you're more likely to and less able to fight it off. Same thing with Rand and LTT. LTTs voice and thoughts and memory are there whether he's sane or not, but the insanity is causing him to succumb to it easier than if he was firing on all cylinders.

[Luckers]

LTT in his head IMO is a product of the fact that he's the rebirth of the man. He would be there even if saidin was clean or Rand never channeled. It's seperate from the encroaching insanity.

 

Again, i dont see how. If this was a factor then LTT would have experienced the previous dragon, and you can be sure he would have been pulled from office the second he was.

[Phiotr AlManera]

LTT in his head IMO is a product of the fact that he's the rebirth of the man. He would be there even if saidin was clean or Rand never channeled. It's seperate from the encroaching insanity.

Everybody in Randland is a reborn 'soul', does everybody have these voices, thoughts and memories then or just Rand?

I do understand the assumption that LTT's voice being there is normal or even good. I helped Rand in a lot of ways.

However, again, as Semirhage pointed out,

a real voice of a dead guy is NOT normal!

[Beckon]

Are you all purposely missing my point? Everyone in Randland is reborn but NOT everyone is reborn as one of the Heroes, NOT everyone's rebirth is prophesied, NOT everyone is destined to save the world, and NOT everyone is going mad from the taint on Saidin.

 

I'm saying Rand is a very unique case, and I think LTT in his head is a unique case. It's there because it's there, because nobody has ever been reborn according to Prophesy before. The fact that even Semi doesn't understand it means exactly zero because it's not a circumstance that's ever occurred before.

 

New talents are popping up all over, Min's and Hurin's abilities are new. Why can't Rand's connection to LTT in his head be unique to him as well?

 

In addition, are any of the other Heroes of the pattern chanellers? Maybe that status causes them to retain more of their past incarnations than the average Joe. Maybe Rand's lack of mental stability is creating the pathway for LTT to be an actual presence in his mind. Maybe the other Heroes of the past were sane and therefore anything they may have gleaned from their past selves was kept to a subconscious level.

 

The fact that we don't have evidence of this happening before doesn't mean it can't happen now and it doesn't mean it has to have any kind of diagnosable cause. He's a messiah, he's special, he's got the conciousness of his prior incarnation in his head.

[Beowolf]

^ There are many reasonable, likely possibilites. Yours is one of them, mine is another. There are also plenty of others.

[Phiotr AlManera]

I do understand what you're saying here and it's possible but I don't consider it to be very plausible.

Look for example to Birgitte. She also has the memories of past lives, she remembers what happened and she remembered how she was, what her personality was like. The same thing goes for Mat.

Rand however has the ramblings of a madman inside his head and that madman is also trying to take controle of Rand's body.

I wouldn't call that a talent or a divine favor.

[Beckon]

I do understand what you're saying here and it's possible but I don't consider it to be very plausible.

Look for example to Birgitte. She also has the memories of past lives' date=' she remembers what happened and she remembered how she was, what her personality was like. The same thing goes for Mat.

Rand however has the ramblings of a madman inside his head and that madman is also trying to take controle of Rand's body.

I wouldn't call that a talent or a divine favor.[/quote']

 

IMO Birgitte and Mat make my theory more plausible. They're both unique cases, which gives credence to the notion of Rand also being a unique case. Birgitte remembers her past lives because of the way she was yanked out of T'a'r. Matt has his memories because of his bargain with the 'finns. Rand has LTT because he's the prophesied savior of the world. The fact that LTT is insane is incidental.

 

The fact of LTT trying to take Rand over also to me points away from it being a manifestation of insanity. It's an actual consciousness with a will of its own, not a delusion.

[Luckers]

Are you all purposely missing my point? Everyone in Randland is reborn but NOT everyone is reborn as one of the Heroes, NOT everyone's rebirth is prophesied, NOT everyone is destined to save the world, and NOT everyone is going mad from the taint on Saidin.

 

No one is purposefulyl misunderstanding anything, Beckon. Just because we dont agree doesn't mean we don't see what your writing.

 

IMO Birgitte and Mat make my theory more plausible. They're both unique cases, which gives credence to the notion of Rand also being a unique case. Birgitte remembers her past lives because of the way she was yanked out of T'a'r. Matt has his memories because of his bargain with the 'finns. Rand has LTT because he's the prophesied savior of the world. The fact that LTT is insane is incidental.

 

I disagree. In both Mat and birgitte we see the clear cause of their uniqueness. A direct action or influence. Same with Rand--the taint. Using Rand's nature, on the other hand, strikes me as a bit wishy-washy. I mean, you can use it for anything. "Why is Rand tall." "Because he's a directly reborn hero, and they have to look heroic." "Why is Rand getting so moody?" "Because he's a directly reborn hero, and thats bound to make anyone a little cranky." I mean, the fact that Rand is Aiel, and under a lot of stress provide us with answers to both of those, but then so does the taint.

 

It's ignoring a fully fleshed physical cause in favour of some thematic ideal...

[phlpr23]

Luckers pretty much summed up my entire view point on this subject. So refer ^