Theory: Impersonating Sammael *AMoL Spoilers*

[Stevros]

Firstly it's been a few years since I was last properly on here (essentially after AMOL I was a bit emotionally drained after over 10 years investment into the series) so had a bit of time away from the series.

 

I have now srarted my first full series re-read since I finished reading AMoL.

 

With that hindsight of how things turn out I now have a theory on something that previously baffled me.

 

I have now reached KoD and got hit afresh with this old puzzle:

 

Who impersonates Sammael and orders Trollocs into the ways.

 

My running theory: Fain

 

I'm not the first to suggest it. I'm sure I've seen a old Terez post somewhere on the topic but I was never previously sold on it.

 

Basically because of how Fain previously controlled Myrddraal using fear and intimidation not impersonation I found this doubtful and he's not a chosen.

 

So why has my mind changed.

 

Mashadar, in AMoL we see that Fain has this on his own surrounding him. This is the first sighting of Fain since Rand destroyed Shadar Logoth and 'destroyed' Mashadar. Well what if it wasn't destroyed what if it in all it's mindless power latched on to Fain? We already know from WH that Fain can create visions of those he's killed. What if he can recreate victims of Mashadar? I think it's plausible since Shadar Logoth got destroyed that he has access to recreate visions of Sammael.

 

We also know that this is the first mass movement of Trollocs through the ways yet it does not attract Machin Shin. Could this be due to Fain's ability to control Machin Shin? An order not to attack Trollocs?

 

It would therefore follow that the attack on Caemlyn with Trollocs was planned post seeing that they can now move through the ways unimpeded. Verin herself could have reported that they made it to Algarin's Manor without losing any? Caemlyn may have been a planned target prior but possibly as a human led attack, explaining the placement of the key Darkfriends David Hanlon & Mili Skane? Once they were exposed they may have switched the plan of attack to Trollocs through the ways.

 

I haven't seen this Fain able to impersonate Sammael as Mashadar killed him before, though that doesn't mean that it isn't out there already..

 

Thoughts/Opinions/Tearing apart of theory?

[Sabio]

Few things, we don't know if the trollocs that attacked Rand at the estate attracted the Balck Wind or not.  Other main thing we have no idea if Fain even knew where Rand was at the time.  For me I just don't see that within Fain's abilities to pretend to be a chosen. 

 

Few key things:

1. Whoever did it had a reason to pretend to be someone else.  There were 2 Forsaken in bad standing, so they would of had a reason to hide their actions if they were doing something that might not be approved of.  They had a lot to risk so would of been the ones to take the most care.  Moghi and Lanfear.

2.  The BA more than likely reported where Rand was. 

3.  Someone had to of known Samm good enough to be able to impersonate him.

4. I think its a gift provided by the DO allowing them to command Trollocs and such.  So it would be hard for a non forsaken, without permission, to command that many. 

5. We assume Rand was the target, But who else was with him that a forsaken had a deep hatred of? Nyn

6. We have a POV from a forsaken, and one in bad standing, on impersonating others.  Moghi

7.  Her own POV from AMOL "She always made certain she could imitate the other Chosen.  Demandred would be difficult, as he had changed so much recently, but she had paid close attention."    So we have a POV from a Chosen stating she knew how to impersonate other Chosen.

 

 

For me what little evidence we have points to Moghi.

[Stevros]

1. Fain would not have been able to order hundreds of Myrddraal to do his orders as he controls them with intimidation so for large numbers he also needs to pretend to actually have the authority.

2. Rand would also be easy for Fain to find ever since the DO made him a hound he is drawn to him he can always find him.

3. If Fain has consumed Sammael's soul then he could impersonate better than most.

4. It is similar to the mark SH gives Alviarin (though her's just marked her it didn't give the authority of the chosen) If Fain though has consumed his soul he may well be able to imitate this mark in a way Shadowspawn can't tell the difference.

5. It's true anyone could have been the target but everyone would have expected a defence with the Cheodan Kal and Callandor. i.e. pointless I think the real target was to get antagonism between the shadow and light back after all the sowing of dissention. The only one who wanted that is Fain, he would have taken the offchance of success too (even if he would prefer the kill himself)

6. True but we know Fain can make visions of people he killed - potentially Mashadar's too.

7. I would expect every Forsaken to be able to pass off to Myrddraal as each other. Myrddraal won't know them each personally.

 

Your other point that we don't know if Trollocs were killed. I'll check but I'm pretty sure that the numbers attacking the Manor were about the same as Moridin sent in the ways. From previous experience we are told Machin Shin us attracted faster to larger groups. It cost a lot of Trolloc lives just moving a few thousand Trollocs in small groups to the Two Rivers when Perrin was there. I'm pretty sure moving all the attackers to the Manor would have drawn Machin Shin almost immediately once in the ways. Something stopped Machin Shin hunting Trollocs. The only person who ever ordered Machin Shin to do something successfully was Fain (stay hunt Rand in tGH)

 

In terms of likelihood I would say 2nd most likely behind Fain is

 

Moridin - testing if the ways were passable for Trollocs in large numbers and the whole announcing tha Sammael was being impersonated was to wrongfoot the other Chosen. Against why choose to attack Rand with it? How did he control Machin Shin?

 

Or

 

Demandred - similar to Moridin in testing Trollocs in the Ways for the attack on Caemlyn given he is the military commander. Against. Why would he disguise himself? His misstep when Moridin asks about it doesn't seem like him covering it? How does he control Machin Shin?

 

I think the Chosen only decide to mass use the ways to move Trollocs after this almost as if this attack is the predecessor to it. If Fain ordered Machin Shin to not attack Trollocs, Machin Shin then would be out of the way for the last battle.

[Sabio]

Moridin of all the forsaken doesn't want Rand dead.  When did he control Machin Shin?  Also this has me confused "numbers attacking the Manor were about the same as Moridin sent in the ways".  I don't remember him sending trollocs in the ways?  Moridin has no reason to attack Rand like that.

Fain also never consumed Samm's soul, Mashadar did, they aren't the same.  And no mention in the series has them connected like that.

Where in the series did it say Machin Shin stopped hunting trollocs?  Fain wouldn't care if Machin Shin killed trollocs.

Not to mention Fain is pretty much kill on sight for the forsaken.  it would be pretty foolish for him to go into the blight and order trollocs about, even disguised.

 

 

 

We have only one POV from any character about their ability to impersonate other Forsaken.  Moghi

[Stevros]

-Moridin can't control Machin Shin, this is why I think Fain most likely suspect.

 

-Whoever sent the attack must assume that it would fail as they know that Rand's party have tge Cheodan Kal and Callandor. If either had been used it would have been a massacre. The Forsaken know Rand has them. This is why I think it's someone else stirring the pot. All the Forsaken know how much more effective Trollocs are defended by channelers

 

- Mashadar consumed Sammael's soul not Machin Shin, I'm theorising that with Shadar Logoth's destruction Mashadar is not truly destroyed and links to the last ruminant of Shadar Logoth... Fain & the dagger. This is backed up by the visibility in AMoL of Fain with Mashadar surrounding him attacking on his command.

 

- We never get told that Machin Shin stops hunting Trollocs however we do know that, Machin Shin is attracted faster to larger groups of Trollocs and would be attracted to groups of 1000 trollocs in minutes. Yet here 100 000 Trollocs move en mass through the ways and seem to suffer no large casualties. Not to mention later in the series when Caemlyn is assulted it requires all the Trollocs close to the gate to pour out in 1 massive stream.

There is no reason for Machin Shin to have stopped hunting Trollocs, but IMO it clearly has. In the series ONLY Fain has any measure of control over Machin Shin so it makes sense that the change came from him. The only reason Fain has to order the Black Wind to avoid the Trollocs is if he sent them. Hence why I think he sent them. I just think he probably left the order to Machin Shin open which the Forsaken later exploit.

 

Fain may be kill on sight (possibly in part due to him wasting 100 000 Trollocs on a pointless attack) for the Forsaken but Fain isn't scared of them. He also isn't exactly sane so I don't think he'd think twice about impersonation of

a Forsaken.

 

Yes the fact Moghi gives a POV showing she can impersonate other Forsaken but we have nowhere suggesting that others can't. Yet Moghi is not in character if she's ordering military movement etc she's a manipulater not a general.

[Sabio]

We saw in AMOL Moghi taking charge of the DO forces after Dem died. Her POV states " She had never been as good as good a tactician as he--she understood the battle well enough to take charge. " It also doesn't take alot of skil lto tell Trollocs to go into the ways until they get to this spot. 

 

The main thing is nowhere in the series does Fain show, have a POV, etc... some of the powers you describe. It's an interesting theory but no where in the book does it show he can do a lot of what you guess, especially the ability to impersonate a forsaken he likely has never met, and who he probably has no idea that's dead. There isn't even any proof he used or visited the ways after going to Falme.  We have no idea how he escaped Falme.  We later see him walking to the blight.

 

The two main suspects for me will always be:

#1 Moghi

#2 Lanfear

Since both have a reason to hide their identity if they do something that Moridin doesn't directly order.  Lanfear wants Rand dead, Moghi wants Ny dead.

[wotfan4472]

Fain controlling Machin Shin is I think true, since it tried to devour him in the first novel but fled from him. If he told it not to attack Trollocs, then it would obey, since he clearly used Machin Shin to block Rand from the Ways in the second book. He tried two separate entrances with that result. The Trollocs dying in the fourth book may have been because Fain had not given it that command yet. The Manor attack is Sammael's MO, since he attacked the Stone. My money is on Aran'gar, since she indicated she was impersonating others as well. Or even Graendal, since she knew Sammael the best out of the Forsaken. In other words, I do not believe Fain sent the trollocs by impersonating Sammael, but he did order Machin Shin not to attack the them.

[Stevros]

We know for a fact it isn't Aran'gar since it is her POV when Moridin announces it and she clearly doesn't know who it is by her thoughts trying to work out who did it.

[wotfan4472]

Good point. Forgot that bit. Got distracted by her 'playing her own game' thought

[Orderofolde]

In AMOL I believe the clue was Moghi's POV when she burns away Demandread's body and assumes his identy after being outed by Min from Tuon's camp as the spy.  While it didn't say it outright, it was pretty conclusive that she admits to being able to impersonate any of the forsaken.  Second, she is the spider, always working in the shadows.  This was totally her MO far more than her taking command after Demi's death.  That placed her in the open and left her vulnerable.  She didn't have a circle of channelers, and she didn't have an angreal much less a sa'angreal.  

[Stevros]

I may be wrong but I thought the reason this wasn't revealed in the companion was due to the fact RJ's notes didn't specify who it was. In which case I don't know how deeply we can read in to on POV in AMoL. Especially as throughout the series we've had lots of people impersonating others

[Sabio]

Most of the impersonating was just the mask of Mirrors to create a new identity.  From my memory, using MOM to actually imperonate someone others knew was rare.  Lanfear as Elsie (think that's her name), Mes is the tower (she picked a loner so would be easier to carry out), Semi as Tuon (to lead Rand into the trap), Elayne in the dungeons, the BA trying to get by Thom, and finally Moghi as Dem.  Most avoid trying to pretend to be someone people know, since if you don't act like that person, people get suspicious. 

 

It's true unless BS comes out and says it was so and so we will never know for sure. The attack I never understood why RJ put that in except to maybe demonstrate LTT/Rand power.  The attack just never made much sense to me.

 

But Moghi is the one who makes sense to me if nothing else as she is the only one to mention that "She always made certain she could imitate the other Chosen".  I still think that was a hint from BS.

[Stevros]

Yeah I agree that the attack seems to have very little purpose for the Shadow. Essentially speaking their tactics had been to "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" and drive wedges in the lights plans sow distrust and disharmony. This is direct action against Rand. The immediate outcome of which is to force Rand to realise that the last battle is very near and they need to pull together join forces with the Seanchan. Essentially doing the opposite of the Shadow's tactics for the last 5 books. All this attack did is serve as warning to the Light of the size of forces the Shadow is capable of deploying and how soon the Last battle is.

 

The only people who's purpose this serves is the forces of the Light (can't see any of them ordering the attack) OR other parties intrested in raising antagonism between the Light and Shadow. i.e. Fain

 

I just don't see how someone who loves manipulating events from the shadows like Moghi would be so oblivious to the consequences of the attack