How will Rand bite it? (before he gets brought back)

[Barid Bel Medar]

I wonder if the DO will actually kill him, or somebody else at Shayol Ghul, or even that he survives the initial fight and dies later on. Eh, too hard to tell at the moment.

 

It would still be sweet if Demandred kills him, but I am doubting there will be much possibility of it.

 

Moridin could do something through the link, I suppose. The DO could weaken Rand and allow Moridin some kind of body swap, then someone kill Randin.

 

The biggest thing is Alivia's role in general. And I suppose the interpretation of the Viewing. Helping Rand die does not necessarily mean actually doing anything at the time of death, she need not even be near. It could be she gives him something beforehand, or gives him some information which may help him to die. Which makes it difficult to predict anything with any accuracy.

[Randommer]

To Terez and the other proponents of the Light-aided suicide thing... *sigh*

It's totally the most likely scenario in terms of in-text foreshadowing, Arthurian parallels, etc... But damn it I like me some drama (and no; for some reason in my warped mind forced suicide is not as dramatic as a Demandred smackdown ).

 

Well, like I said, I don't think it will be quite that simple. And as for drama...isn't Gawyn attacking him dramatic? Moiraine showing up and fulfilling her importance to his destiny by balefiring his ass? Not dramatic enough for you? Demandred killing him would be lame in comparison, I think.

 

Not to me, really. See...hmmm...

The thing is, we've already seen Rand wanting to die. A lot. We've spent the whole series with either him wanting to die, or at least accepting that he was going to for the greater good. The noble self-sacrifice thing wouldn't be at all new for him. We've also seen the others constantly wonder whether he was going to go crazy/evil, and he nearly did. Gawyn has always hated him and Moiraine has made it clear that she would kill him if she had to. So that wouldn't be particularly shocking either. (And it would kind of imply to me that he or they had some sort of back-up plan. Otherwise, why kill him if the world is doomed anyway?)

 

But the one thing we haven't seen is Rand being defeated. Or even really the Light in general. Utterly defeated. To me, the idea of Rand getting killed, just straight-up murdered, right when he wants to live so badly, and the Light being left like, "...well crap. He's dead. WTF DO WE DO NOW?" is a lot more dramatic than any variation of 'you have to kill me' / 'we have to kill him'. But I can see why you'd disagree.

[Barid Bel Medar]

But the one thing we haven't seen is Rand being defeated. Or even really the Light in general. Utterly defeated.

 

Heh, after a while you start feeling sorry for the poor DO. I mean, the Shadow needs some consolation, if only temporary.

 

I can see both sides, although I tend towards a more dramatic "Shadow kill".

 

In terms of drama anyway. Having someone kill him because he wants it to happen, or it is a "oh, best we do kill him" seems anti-climactic. Because they are killing him for the "greater good." And we know then that its all in hand, and all is still well in the world.

 

Gawyn killing him, without "permission" and not a greater good (at least, in his mind, although it will turn out that way) would be alright I suppose, but then, what happens to Gawyn? A lot of people would be angry at him killing their last hope of Salvation. It would be really annoying if Egwene protected him because of their relationship. I mean, understandable, but the guy just killed the Dragon Reborn. I'm not overly fond of the guy, but I don't want to see him ruined mentally and possibly physically. Nor do I want to see Egwene be hurt like that either. (Although, I will be fair and say it would constituted as very dramatic, so fair play)

 

The most dramatic would then be a Shadow killer. Someone who wants to kill him for the DO, and actually does it, without any "greater good". Shadow plans actually work!

 

Now this is purely from a dramatic point of view. Nothing to do with what is likely and what is not.

[FarShainMael]

What happens to Gawyn? He gets balefired, that's what. And Rand gets unkilled.

 

Shadow plans working..? now that would be a shock...

[Barid Bel Medar]

What happens to Gawyn? He gets balefired, that's what. And Rand gets unkilled.

 

Shadow plans working..? now that would be a shock...

 

Heh, exactly. Competence from the Shadow? (I am actually a big advocate of the Shadow =Winning currently, but they haven't been good with their plans with Rand)

 

I am sure many would like Gawyn to get balefired or cut to shreds, but what about poor old Egwene? It would damage her position in the Tower, and indeed in the world. Her own Warder kills the Dragon Reborn? That will not go down well with anyone, and the Aes Sedai will clutch at straws, no need to give them a legitimate excuse to bring her down. Whether or not she knew of it beforehand is immaterial. There will be a huge shadow cast over her position, and some might even remember Elaida's claims of her being a Darkfriend.

 

 

 

Dramatic indeed, I will admit, but how would they work that one out? I can't see Egwene explaining her way out of that. I suppose Rand could come back and forgive Gawyn and exonerate Egwene...

 

Damn, the more I think about it, it could turn into something epic. Egwene suspected of being a DF, the Light in chaos, Gawyn getting a beating as he deserves.

 

Edit: Damn.... proven wrong.

[FarShainMael]

But none of that will happen if Gawyn is balefired enough to bring Rand back. No-one will know he was ever killed, except the balefire-wielder.

 

(Edited for clarity)

[fikkie77]

Egwene has said she wasn't a darkfriend immediately after she has taken the oaths. She is quite safe for everyone else. And if they suspect her of being turned, they just let her retake the oaths and let her say it again. No weak Amylin position.

 

But Gawyn killing him (foreshadowed) and Rand being brought back by huge balefire is a nice theory. I only think that a strong Light-sided channeler would do it. Like... let's say Nynaeve? Healing death has been foreshadowed around her (and this is kind of healing death), using balefire once more as well (she refused to promise she wouldn't use balefire anymore after het Aes Sedai test). And she is strong enough.

 

edit: she might do it right away, in defence of Rand, but then we would lack the funeral scene.

she might also do it if she suspects him to be a DF or if he attacks her.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Egwene has said she wasn't a darkfriend immediately after she has taken the oaths. She is quite safe for everyone else. And if they suspect her of being turned, they just let her retake the oaths and let her say it again. No weak Amylin position.

 

But Gawyn killing him (foreshadowed) and Rand being brought back by huge balefire is a nice theory. I only think that a strong Light-sided channeler would do it. Like... let's say Nynaeve? Healing death has been foreshadowed around her (and this is kind of healing death), using balefire once more as well (she refused to promise she wouldn't use balefire anymore after het Aes Sedai test). And she is strong enough.

 

Ahh, you got me there. She could admit she had no idea what was happening as well.

 

Damn.... Not that I want Egwene to be brought down, just that it would have been exciting.

 

In that case, not too dramatic, I concede nothing!

 

 

 

The balefire theory wouldn't serve a purpose, except to kill Gawyn, which you might say is purpose enough. I mean, nothing happens with it, except no Gawyn. I can't see it being as simple as that. It would be, well, pointless really. Might as well have just had Gawyn eaten by a Trolloc for all the good it does for the story.

 

Unless it somehow affects Rand and his soul, I can see no point. Nynaeve healing death this way would be kind of a let down to be honest, it seems like cheating.

[fikkie77]

Gawyn killing Rand

Nynaeve killing Gawyn with lots of balefire does have significance: it brings back Rand.

 

Loony theory, I know, but I would like it. I really don't like Gawyn. He's so stupid! Blaming Rand for his mother's death without searching for evidence was stupid. Not believing otherwise too. Aiding Elaida without wondering what the consequences were was stupid. Helping her adversary escapes makes that a little bit better, but is in itself stupid (why else have you just killed warders?) And it goes on and on...

[Barid Bel Medar]

Sorry, I didn't explain, it would have significance in terms of brining back Rand, but nothing else, apart from getting rid of an annoying person.

 

I think what people expect is something "special" to happen with Rand in terms of death. Like he is revived 3 days later, that Nynaeve actually finds a way to bring him back (like ripping him out of TAR ala Birgitte)

 

So the balefire is not a looney theory, it makes perfect sense, its just that it would seem a waste of time, that you might aswell not have even killed Rand in the first place, since it wouldn't change anything, except Gawyn gone.

 

Although I suppose the death of Gawyn would have consequences for Egwene, since she would be all depressed with the Warder Bond death saddness, but that can happen if Gawyn is killed some other way aswell.

[Terez]

Right, story-wise Rand's death has to have some kind of significance, and if he's brought back by balefire, then any significance his death might have had would be automatically negated. I think it more likely Gawyn will be brought back when Rand is balefired, but if he still has a sword in his heart, being brought back won't do him much good.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think it more likely Gawyn will be brought back when Rand is balefired, but if he still has a sword in his heart, being brought back won't do him much good.

 

Well, I suppose it will give some fans satisfaction of watching him die impaled on a sword TWICE! Although I would much rather see it with Elaida. Gawyn ain't so bad, just a little confused.

[fikkie77]

No, all Elaida has to do is to bow before Egwene and the Dragon. Teach her some humility!

[The One-Eyed Fool]

Why would Gawyn fight Rand? He already knows Rand didn't kill his mother, which was his only motive for hating Rand earlier. The whole problem with Gawyn stemmed from that one misunderstanding, which has been totally cleared up. I don't see any reason they'd fight.

[Orderofolde]

Mat is supposed to betray him.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Well even though I am not the biggest advocate of Gawyn killing Rand, there is a reason he would attack him.

 

When he has his little chat with Elayne about Rand it is revealed that he has a deeper hate of Rand than just killing his mother. He WANTED to believe the rumours, because he is jealous of Rand, he doesn't think Rand should be the Dragon Reborn because he is a farmer or some nonsense. Gawyn wanted to be a hero and lead armies and save the world.

 

If Rand makes any move Gawyn thinks is dangerous, I am quite sure he would jump at the chance to kill him.

 

Also, there is the possibility that he WANTS someone to kill him. Egwene saw it in her accepted test, him wanting her to kill him. She may not be able to do so herself, but Gawyn would volunteer pretty quickly.

[FarShainMael]

But it's Alivia who will help Rand die, not Gawyn.

[Barid Bel Medar]

But it's Alivia who will help Rand die, not Gawyn.

 

That viewing isn't very good.

 

It could mean that she points Gawyn towards Rand, it could mean anything. She doesn't actually have to kill him. She might be dead at the time, but he remembers something she says which helps him to die.

 

As I said, I am not a big advocate for the Gawyn killing Rand idea. But that viewing bugs me.

 

I think it is a huge red herring. People take it to mean Alivia will somehow be physically involved in Rand's death. I think it means something else. Like she helps him with a piece of information which then leads to his death. Or she makes it possible to Travel to Shayol Ghul, and thus aids him in dying. Or she dies, and her death helps Rand to die in some way, perhaps she was protecting him.

 

It is vague, and often something that seems straight forward means something else. Like Sheriam's viewing.

[FarShainMael]

Why would she do it through Gawyn, or through anyone? She's quite capable of killing him herself. If he wants or needs killing, why do it through a third party?

[Barid Bel Medar]

I am not the one with the Gawyn theory. I don't know, I know it is possible. I am not a big advocate of the idea, but you can't rule it out.

 

As I said, Alivia will "help him die." Which doesn't mean she will kill him, nor does she even have to be in the same city at the time. Alot of things could constitute helping Rand to die. I just think that Alivia will not actually physically do anything to Rand. It is a big red herring. I can see it being something simple, like a comment she makes which gives him certain information leading to his death.

 

It even pretty much says it straight out that it won't be Alivia killing Rand.

 

 

"Rand, I like Alivia. But she is going to kill you." Rand replies, "Helping me die isn't the same as killing me. Unless you've changed your mind about what you saw."

[FarShainMael]

Agreed with that.

 

I'm not a fan of the Gawyn theory (as you may have gathered ). His main motive for wanting Rand dead has vanished with the reappearance of his mother, and to re-awaken it now would be clumsy plotting, IMO.

 

But it's true that 'helping someone die' is wide open to interpretation. Over here in the UK, as no doubt in other places, there are frequent calls for 'assisted suicide'. THe person assisting provides the means whereby the intended suicide can off himself; usually drugs. In WoT there are other means - there's an incident (TGS6) in which Ituralde finds a mortally wounded General Turan. They talk for a while, then at Turan's request, Ituralde beheads him. This is both killing someone and helping them die, IMO.

 

But again, if Alivia finds Rand in a similar condition, why would she not 'do the honours' herself?

[Terez]

Why would Gawyn fight Rand? He already knows Rand didn't kill his mother, which was his only motive for hating Rand earlier. The whole problem with Gawyn stemmed from that one misunderstanding, which has been totally cleared up. I don't see any reason they'd fight.

 

The two most likely options:

 

1. Rand falls under the influence of the Shadow (there are several hints in this direction) and Rand has to be killed because he's dangerous.

 

2. Gawyn is trying to prevent Rand from breaking the seals.

 

He's foreshadowed for a betrayal 'as darkness fits the sun' (see sig), so that leads me to believe it's actually Egwene that he betrays, which makes the second option seem more likely. The first shouldn't be considered a betrayal in any way unless Egwene has ordered him not to go after Rand for some reason. I could be wrong about the semantics, though; it would really depend on how it's written.

[FarShainMael]

If he's become that dangerous, Gawyn is toast.

[Terez]

It depends, I think. If Rand is influenced heavily enough by the Shadow, then I think some of his mysterious powers might be diminished. And I expect Gawyn to have an arsenal of useful gadgets, not least the Bloodrings and maybe even a proper copy of Mat's ter'angreal.

[FarShainMael]

I don't think the medallion will help him. We've already seen AS attack Mat with the OP simply by scooping up lumps of earth and hurling it at him. We've also seen Rahvin kill him with saidin-induced lightning, not directly with saidin itself.

 

In any case, I don't think a Turned Rand would be at the FoM. If he does get Turned (assuming the Light in his brain will let it happen), I see it happening something like this:

 

Lanfear and possibly Moridin (provided Rand's VoG moment didn't turn him back to the Light, or drive him mad like Torkumen) drag Rand off to SG where he is Turned. He's now exactly where the DO wants him. With the DO feeding him and Moridin as much TP as they can handle, possibly using saidin as well, and Lanfear joining in with saidar, they rip the Bore wide open. THe DO starts to emerge. They help It by starting to unleash balefire everywhere in sight, causing the Pattern to begin to unravel. Possibly Rand uses one of those 'searching weaves' that he used in the Stone in Tear (I think). That would be pretty much it for the Wheel.

 

There is only one way out of this, and that's balefire. Not of Rand, but of Lanfear and Moridin. Trouble is, it's highly unlikely anyone could get through this storm of destruction. But there is one person who could do it, and that's Rand himself:

 

Lanfear: "You see, Lews Therin! You see. We can challenge the Creator himself!"

 

Rand (his feelings for Lanfear having been Turned with everything else) snarls in paranoid anger "We?!?", and turns balefire on her....and wakes up in his tent, not having been lured away by Lanfear.

 

Edited to clarify.

 

Aarrgh!! What's with these paragraphs??