Mr. Ares Randland has had 996 years of relative calm, the entire time the population has been decreasing, it isn't subtle and unnoticed, it has been noticed, Ingtar says it out loud.

What is unclear is how it is happening... what mechanism is in effect? why just randland and not the Aiel?

It doesn't make sense.

wolf505: one messed up chick. which of the forsaken aren't messed up? also if you read her arguement to rand in tSR, she is trying to convince rand to her side, her and rand's rule of the world would begin with "kneel, but once before" DO. all the forsaken are selfish, self-aggrandizing, etc. If she hit rock bottom, why was it off-screen? doing nothing doesn't seem as bad as fouling up like greandel did, doesn't moggy just sit and wait for the right moment to strike?

pillars give Aiel a way back to the way of the leaf.

Ruthan Gudd, you could have said better "NE economic upswing" but I think there is an error in the storyline as NE should be increasing population, innovation, economy, but it isn't there.

The NE is the opposite of what it should be, populations shrinking, no innovation (people should be likely to innovate precisely because the AS stay to themselves (also realistically AS have been able to do little more than heal or fight trollocs in the NE)) shrinking economic interactions (eg nations disappearing/drying up, recession of Andor's borders, etc)

It's not an error in the storlyine, it has an explanation. They should have an increasing population, they don't due to Shai'tan's influence on the world.

Good explaination, just not one example of it... DO's invisible influence? did it even exist before book one, when the seals began to fail. It wasn't DFs, they are incompetent fools. Why would DO only go after middle earth, Aiel population grew during this time period.

Ruthan Gudd, you could have said better "NE economic upswing" but I think there is an error in the storyline as NE should be increasing population, innovation, economy, but it isn't there.

The NE is the opposite of what it should be, populations shrinking, no innovation (people should be likely to innovate precisely because the AS stay to themselves (also realistically AS have been able to do little more than heal or fight trollocs in the NE)) shrinking economic interactions (eg nations disappearing/drying up, recession of Andor's borders, etc)

Vardarmus: that is the equivelent of saying that western population could not grow because we had nuns, 99.9% of the female population was availible for marriage and the largest war in NE history was the Aiel War (in which, I'm sure many thousands did not return home, but what percentage of the male population was that, in a previous post I estimated it to be less than 5%, not fun, but not enough to account for population failure which has been occuring for the last thousand[?] years. Note: most people in today's day speak of going to war not losing family, in the war.

I do not doubt that the 'unclaimed' lands have a lower population than they should, but they are probably amply populated. Just are not a nation

amply populated... there are places that may have more population off scene, but Elyas tells Perrin and Egwene, that they were walking [few degrees north of Camlyn] and they could walk to dragonmount without seeing a soul, Ingtars travels in the next book they travel past a few small villages where a country used to be, the city that had been there was removed and all the stones gone too. the lists go on...

Sutree: ah, did i confuse which recontructed forsaken was vaporized in greandel's catastrophy? was it arangar?

Why is meirin being tortured, if cyndane is still serving faithfully... that really is unimportant to the theory tho.

Regardless of what Meirin knows, her place at the Bore, makes her the best resource for returning it to its previous state (whether or not the choras were invovled)

a lot to respond to...

Mr Ares and Suttree, end of page 841 (maybe third to last page in ToM) Rand finds Meirin in his dream? I don't understand it, cyndane was balefired already, right? maybe when DO brings forsaken back he seperates out the good, and somehow meirin is in telrhoid? meirin being the good half?

Muddasssir, it grew under the constant care of the jenn, and it was able to survive the last 1600 years in the shade of the magic dome that may have had some preserving characteristics

Aulduron, I think someshta is dead, but I really liked him and wouldn't mind seeing him again, note: he could have been born as a hero already, Im guessing even an exile could earn hero status

I have heard some mayan cities grew so large, food suppliers couldnt reach the center... (too far to travel)

Ingtar describes the losses of populations in the (begining? of) Hunt

whole nations used to exist, that disappeared and the countries that exist are more empty than full, remember the trip from elanyes lands to camlyn, boys travel from four kings, egwene and perrin on caralain grass, etc. These places should be bustling, good soil, even along rivers, recall the girls traveling to salidar and from tar valon to tear

i am recommenting, cause I really love this theory and I want everybody to get a chance to see it, but I also have a quick comment.

Kaznen: The Aiel couldn't plant chora's in thier holds, because their holds were in a desert, no water, Rhuidean was protected from the burning hot sun by the dome cloud, and they also seemed willing to give a cutting to Laman's family. And why were the Aiel so important to save? So important for them to keep the way of the Leaf that they were not drafted into the army when the war against the shadow threatened the whole world.

fikkie: I accept your statement as is, but do you have a rreason why the choras can't play this role?

of course planting trees everywhere you go only last more than one generation, if they produce seed and also note they required a tremendous amount of work ro keep alive... whole thing seems suspicious of more. Note: the greatest event in history since Hawkwing is Laman's sin which was about cutting down a tree...

Also, why was Mierin brought back into the story in the last book? she was dead and gone... we didn't need her, unless she has something to reveal to Rand after he saves her. She and Ishy were the one's who drilled the bore working together, so she may understand more about the form of DO's prison (prior to the bore) than anyone else, regardless of whether the prison included choras or not

sorry to rewind the discussion back to my original rant, but here it is:

the reason why faile is so bad is not because she has no redeeming qualities, but because she is psycotic. she creates problems for fun so they can have something to argue over. she never tells him what he did wrong (and that is something all women can improve on) oh and most of the time she blames him for things he didnt do. The reality is unlike nynaeve (whose char improved recently) I can't see ever liking faile's character.

Of course the trolloc wars, though really a series of wars, had the biggest impact on populations since the breaking.

but the trolloc wars ended hundreds of years ago, since that time nations continue to collapse and populations decline.

with healthy birth mortality, we should have seen a population growth, but instead it declined.

until very recently DO's influence on the world was very minimal. All the DF in the world could not change the simple fact that population was growing, they had neither the man-power nor the will. We don't see DO's dfriends killing babies to suppress the population, most murder seems to be very small scale.

UK never used all of their land (though I don't know what percent was wild during that time period, far later in WWII as people left the cities for the country, they would get on trains and spend hours on the train traveling at a speed unheard of before the industrial age, through primarily, wilderness.)

like perrin, his story wasn't bad, faile was horrible, a real negative influence,

Massive war every hundred years or so.

besides for Brother Bill, I haven't really heard anybody address the fall in populations, population growth has always been tied to infant mortality, which may not rival today's but seems atleast as good as Western Europe in the 1700s (if not better, most people seem to have nice family sizes, the Grinwells, the Al'Vere, Aybara's, Cauthons etc.) also note they should have had these population growths for most of the last millenia where as we only had those growths for a few hundred years and we are at 7 billion.

Yes there were the Trolloc wars, but that was long ago, most wars were miniscule compared to the Aiel war, which did not seem to affect the population of Randland (even though it was a big war). You see it is the mechanization of war which increases the kill rate. Their level of technology should require somewhere about 25% of the population in food production, and with a monarchy employing an army it is often a small fraction of the total national population that goes to war (example Elayne's battle for the throne) and without bombing of cities and wholesale civilian slaughter, the worst war would only affect a percent or two of the population (the Aiel war is an exception to this rule, as many civilians were drafted or volunteered, but from the attitude and appearance of today that singular event was not very big (maybe as much as a few percent).

Where are the populations of the disappeared nations? Why haven't the current nations grown significantly since the Trolloc wars? Even Two Rivers should be bursting (they were mostly left alone). The only countries that should not have grown should have been the borderlands.

In today's day most AS intellects seem to be ivory tower intellects.

AS did not get involved in science projects, probably because they could use the power to solve common problems. I do think Saidin Saidar would hamper technological developement. I would not invest in a steam horse if I could just travel to Camlyn instantly and then to any city for a few gold marks (no need for guards, feed for horses, living it rough for days...)

Note: The attitude in the AoL did not create technology, the sho-wings, etc. worked on the standing wave created by the channelers, without the channelers, the infrastructure collapsed overnight.

Note: in our history the increase in education followed technology very slowly, why would you go to school if we havent discovered to teach the students yet

Mr Meltdown: you said "the chora trees have not been around for a full turning of the wheel, nor have the Aiel."

or maybe they have.

The tree of life is more than just a nice tree and the Aiel are literally the only whole people that no only survived the breaking, but lasted another three thousand years (obviously discounting their change to Ji toh and losing way of leaf) not counting how many before the breaking, during the age of lengends...

Interesting observation, Chora are the only tree that would be extinct if people ascribed the way of the leaf to them

I think they are holding somethings back from us. Aiel's heritage, Avendesora/Chora, the seals to DO's prison. My Dad always said "watch out, if the more questions they answer - leaves you with more questions than you started with." (or something like that, he knows grammar, unlike me.)

We saw the Aiel going back to AoL, but why did they live the way of the leaf? why was Choras so important? Why are choras/Avendesora called the tree of life? why did the Aiel serve the Aes Sedai? Will there be seals on the new prison? (not cuellindar, we all think)

Hey y'all read what I did. This theory answers a lot of questions.

Tell me what you think

Barid Bel Medar: You feel for the beliefs of the Lost Ones [Tinkers]. Obviously singing is cool, good, help society, agriculture, but the lost ones snapped after being pushed too far after the breaking and they threw off the burden of service to dream of a nostagia, rather than face reality.

BenevolentCow: You are right, there was no knowledge of DO before the Bore, everybody forgot HIM by then. Avendesora was made before the Bore, but what is unclear is how long before the Bore, a century before? a millenia? an age? or more? of course there would be no emphasis by Aes Sedai, they didn't know of the connection before the Bore (though maybe Lanfear and Ishmael figured it out after they cut into the Bore... we will see if Meirin tells Rand when he saves her...)

The trees must have been the Aiel's responsibility or part of their culture independent of the Aes Sedai advice, maybe the Aes Sedai sought to use the Aiel, tell the Aiel to keep the way of the leaf so their terangreal would be safe, coopting the original purpose to keep the trees safe by keeping the Aiel out of wars/squabbles for their own (admittedly not selfish goals).

Mlva: Even the Aiels constant re cutting and replanting only brought two specimens to the current time... and noone else tried? every other tree burnt? no survivors to take cuttings from after the breaking? It is not a proof but it is suspicious.

And Mat would feel different because of his blood? Maybe, but I think he can remember the old tounge. Should his ancestors who sat under this tree felt calmed, but he seems sedated?

I have been exploring the Aiel's future, past, the seals... and I stumbled on something.

Troubles:

There is something very stange about the Avendesora, before the Bore, they lined the streets of every city, but after the Bore, the Aiel caretakers could only get two to grow (that we know of (one last one in Rhuidean and the other that Laman cut down). Something is causing them to fail.

Also Mat's reaction to the tree was too strong, the trees are supposed to be calming, but his experience seemed almost like a strong sedative.

Also note they are artificial/genetically engineered and not from a seed.

Answer:

Maybe the Avendesora are failing because they are no longer the focii of the seal on DO's prison. When the first trees were made, the first cell [/s] were included in the binding process of DO's prison. and they were designed in such a way that when the cells split, they take a strand of the prison with them...

Explainations:

So without the DO sucking some of the life out of the tree, the tree's effect is too great and overwhelming, subsequently the trees fail more often than not, because it is designed to fight against DO's corruption, without that they fail.

Also now the name now makes more sense too, it is the protector of all life on the planet (/universe).

This also explains why the Aiel may have had to follow the way of the leaf... a tree that does not make a seed would require replanting from cuttings, general care... The Aiel dedicated to protecting the planet by these trees would have to above wars... and destroying one would be more than just stupid, it would be vastly evil, thats why Laman had to die.

Advice for future:

Remake the prison through the cells of the tree.

Aiel are offered the opportunity to resume caretaking the avendesora on the planet, resume the way of the leaf, service to the Aes Sedai should be taboo (it didn't work too well last time at the end).

Live happily ever after.

Okay the best quote would be the oath everyone takes, by their hope of rebirth...

The Wheel of time one ain't bad, beginning of every book... there is no beginning or end in the turning of the wheel of time (and maybe add: but this was a beginning)

how about the opening to snake and foxes game: Iron to bind, fire to dazzle or whatever.

the one men always say about Aes Sedai, about hooking and debt or the one about how AS will tell you something but it ain't what you think they meant...

Nynaeve or Egwene always saying they remember when Rand was last spanked, and it wasn't that long ago.

shelter in the creators hand? by or In the light...

I have never heard anyone say they know (/knew) how to destroy cuellindar.

It was never done with the exception of the seals and the method used on the seals was the corruption of DO's prison.

he knew they smelled like rabid dogs

he had seen their behavior before that night

he was warned by the other wolf-man to run for his life

the wolves warned that it was kill or be killed

on that night they continued to chase after he fled the campsite, accosted him at the statue...

Look deeply my friends, if you will, that "non-violent" request for him to allow himself to be arrested was a prelude to his torture and death, don't be fooled by the speech of mad people...

hybrid - I don't understand how you can say, when perrin is captured by WC they will kill as DF, but he shouldn't lash out in an unprovoked attack?!

His most effective method of self-defense is to surprise attack the murderers and try to kill them all before they are get a chance to kill Perrin.

if two people balefire each other at the same time, then they both don't exist.

person A releases balefire and hits person B, person B is gone from the pattern from before person A released balefire, so balefiring person A now can't effect anyone who was dead before A acted.

Also Rand and Moridin (if it really was) didn't shoot each other's person, their weaves touched (what does that do? who knows...) so they couldn't have been removed from the pattern.

Also one thread has only one body, one position, etc

the problem with that statement is that cuellindar is not a weave.

the weave to make cuellindar changed the iron, now you need a weave that would undo cuellindar, not a weave that would counter a cuellindar making weave.

Analogy iron can be made into steel, the process doesn't have an inverse and knowing the process doesn't tell you how to reverse it.

Theory of power wrought swords... ordinary metals fail usually along imperfections, imperfections removed by power process and perhaps chemical bonds altered to make it even stronger... by this theory cuellindar is a type of perfect crystaline or ceramic version of iron (though we can't change iron into either today and your chemistry teacher may tell you it is impossible, in the future we may develop new processes that can alter an iron atom so that it can create a crystaline or ceramic bond, imagine if you could make a diamond out of iron atoms, but to do so you need to push the atoms together a hundred times stronger than diamonds [won't happen in nature, and we may be decades from figuring out how to do it with machines])

Durinax - Bornhald not actually that reasonable, he is a WC and he knew Perrin and Egwene were DF, period.

the fact that he wasn't foaming at the mouth like Byar, and he spoke in a calm voice doesn't change his WC leanings.

WC could not think of a good reason for two kids to be out there and there were wolves in the area, any people must be DF.

Reread Bornhald you will see what i'm saying.

Evil Socrates - temporary insanity doesn't excuse people, but it also doesn't mean that they need to be institutionalized either. Perrin went with temp. insanity. Temporary insanity (from all my TV learnings) is when moments after a person's best friend is killed, he lashes out... No premeditation with under extreme emotional duress.