With directions show already took with male and female characters I fully expecting Lews will be responsible for the Bore now, as lead researcher of even sole driller. And to expand on Lanfear she would be reliable one and try to stop foolish and arrogant Dragon, but he didn't listen and his distrust and ambition pushed her into Shadow, not her own nature. You know, to not create another character, it's TV and limited runtime and condense story and less budget to another actor. After all Lews The Dragon Reborn already known for audience as breaker of world, why not make him more heinous to "convey the nature" of Breaking. People would love such change, some probably gonna say how book didn't really focused on the Bore.

5 hours ago, Kaleb said:

That's exactly the kind of thing that smacks of exec non-reader decisions. "This world is all about reincarnation, right? And everybody knows there's always a Dragon that will save the world, right? So that's always the Dragon Reborn!"

 

Again, saying that the writers don't respect the source material is so insulting at this point. They're taking an incredibly complex story and putting it on screen amid all kinds of real-world considerations like expat detailed above, and one obstacle is clearly questionable storytelling decisions imposed by people well above the showrunner level. There's so much love and deep knowledge of the books visible throughout every episode that the personal insults to the creative team seem just petty.

 

Also again, nothing in what I wrote above means people shouldn't critique the show. Just do it without insulting the commitment of the people who are making it happen, please?

I'm just fascinated how everything in the world against showrunners: corona and Barney were against them, now evil Amazonians come along and ruin perfect vision. Now apparently Rand being Dragon Reborn Reborn is forced by execs. In can't be that writers don't fully care about metaphysics as we see with circles, and a'dam, and Dragon Reborn Reborn, and aoe heal, and Uno being hero of horn, and mega-healer Egg

3 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

It's also the epitome of pedantry.

That's not "pedantry", that's THE point. Dragon Reborn is Rand being Lews who is Dragon. 

I think Lews being Dragon Reborn good indication how much writers respect source material. It can't even be blamed on evil execs who bullying poor little well-meaning showrunners, cause it's not big enough story thread to be dictated from above.

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

I don't see this as quite the dire situation that you do. He has human connections in the show - we know Mat, Egwene and Perrin are all important to him. We know Moiraine is important.

Because Egwene and Moiraine main characters, and Mat and Perrin are parts of WhoisDragon thing, once resolved Rand is isolated. There are no close characters to teach or change perspectives in Rand storyline. Instead of lessons in leadership from Hurin, or duty and sacrifice from Ingtar and Lan, or history and humanity from Thom we get Lanfear and sex.

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

In the books, he decides to take Callandor to prove the prophecies true or false and in so doing, he comes to truly accept himself as the Dragon. We have yet to see how the show will handle this. One of the reasons I'm so excited for Season 3!!

I remember after Tarwin's Gap people said how it wasn't that important and we gonna see Rand shine in Falme, we need to wait and be exited for Season 2. After s2e8 people said it was unrealistic to expect battle in Sky and it would be not good on TV, so we need to wait and be exited for Season 3. Now you saying he's not really a Dragon yet, despite Moiraine proclaim him, so if s3 wont show Callandor or it will be obtained by, let's say Moiraine, will you say to wait for Season 4?

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

But emotionally, he is right where he should be at this point. Unsure of himself, unsure of his powers, distrustful of everyone around him

He's never been a leader, never sacrificed himself, trusts Lanfear so much they lovers, didn't stand to power (Amerlin). I think this is more important and emotional bits.

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

They have greatly slowed Rand's growth in the show (avoiding the problem where he completely disappears for most of an entire book).

Funny how Rand needs to be nerfed, but certain character already best healer in both book and show canon, capable to be first to break from literally unbreakable from inside ancient artifact and stall Forsaken

3 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I'm still trying to understand exactly which aspects of the books were "shattered" or "completely destroyed". I understand that some of the changes to particular backstories change characters in ways people could find unlikable. But I see no changes that "break" or "shatter" or "obliterate" the books. 

 

Mostly Rand. He has no human connections he had in books, no Lan, no Thom, no Loyal, no Hurin, no Ingtar. All he does is have sex with Egwene and Lanfear, he doesn't explore, doesn't wander in castle, has no sword.  He literally fails to villain scheme in season 1 finale in stark contrast to Egg who saves a day. He doesn't lead fight at Falme, he doesn't sacrifice himself and got stabbed by his "friend", after being humiliated by Siuan.

He doesn't even proclaim himself as Dragon, Moiraine does. It looked more like he's false dragon.

While Rand is example of narrative breaks in story to elevate other characters, Egwene is example of breaks in metaphysics to elevate HER. Not only show change how circle to let Egg be a healer for no reason, in two seasons Rafe let his favourite character do 2 feats impossible in the book, heal death and free herself from a'dam by herself, didn't even need help of Dark One, unlike loser Rand.

2 hours ago, Kaleb said:

the "they shouldn't even call it Wheel Of Time" gatekeeping take is just so boring at this point.

Maybe if showrunner made show to be more like books you wouldn't be bored by people acknowledging how show shatters certan aspects of books and completely destroys storylines and good scenes to add unnecessary fanfiction to showrunners and producers favourite characters 

Egwene will be fighting Asmo and Lanfear, maybe even alone while Rand gonna be distracted or be incapable of channeling or do important metaphysical stuff like talking to the Dark One. Either way Egg cannot sit out climax of Aiel Waste in a tent. Maybe Moiraine will help her so fight wouldn't be so unbelievable and after everything she will bring water to Rhuidean

4 hours ago, Yamezt said:

I feel like your dislike originates from a dislike towards Egwene (which is your prerogative).

4 hours ago, Yamezt said:

Rand just spent the whole season running away because he doesn't want to hurt everyone/his friends. And I guess the lesson is he needs people/his friends.

The reason i concentrate on Egwene rather than Moiraine( who admittedly act more like Rand is false Dragon by declaring him with her Power) is because show authors choose different lessons to teach for Egg and Rand. Lesson for Egwene is she can do anything by herself if she wants, lesson for Rand is he can't do anything without his friends. And i have problem with this because if in book's Rand really needs power of other to succeed, he still can do some things by himself and show doesn't let him. While Egwene really shouldn't learn that type of lesson.

4 hours ago, Yamezt said:

If he solves everything because he is the Dragon, then why does he need to gather this army or unite the Nations when he can solve it by being the Dragon/Chosen one?

I don't know, in show so far he goes from being useless to Dragon the shit out of Turak and Ishy, with no in between, he didn't do anything as Rand, well maybe he beat up dude (lol) and banged Lanfear(lmao). 

5 hours ago, Yamezt said:

And if the show follows down the path of the book, then Rand has to deal with letting people (Maidens) die for him once he accepts he has to unite the world.

By the end of book two not only he learns about sacrifice, which might happen or not in show, if show follows down the path of the book, Rand also learns about responsibilities by interacting with Hurin and Loial and Ingtar. He does try to act alone in book 3, but he still learned to be a leader even if little. In show he about to go and meet Aiel with no experience at all.

43 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

How was this big strong Egwene saving Rand? She was getting owned by Ishy and almost begged Rand to help her, did people watch the same scene or did Amazon have 2 versions they showed? Everyone was getting owned by Ishy, the moment Rand is unshielded, untrained, un experienced as he is he owns Ishy, deflects everything he throws at him and kills him. Egwene, perrin, matt they where all going to die unless Rand saved them.  

Because first show denying Rand his fight with Turak. And than he is sheilded again and Egwene literally saves him. And it would be okay, maybe show really needed to give her another moment to be heroic, but than let Rand really fight Ishy, like Jordan wrote. Where in the book Rand struggles and learns about sacrifice, in show it's Egwene struggles and Rand stabs Ishy. It doesn't matter if he "deflects" or "absorbs" Ishy Power, in book he succeeded because he really fought for a win (and had help from Horn), not simply because he is Dragon.

1 minute ago, SinisterDeath said:

@Scarloc99's referencing the scene that was originally written pre-covid. The scene we got was shot post-covid.

Also, Nynaeve was not dead. Her eyes weren't "burnt out" like the others. She was "crispy" compared to the others "charred".  You might have to turn up your brightness to see the difference.

But written scene doesn't matter. We may argue Rand destroyed trollocs because RJ originally wrote this ending pre-show, but in show canon Egwene heals "crispy" Nynaeve with One Power, not herbs.

Also if Nyn was just one step from death it's still probably biggest example of healing aside from Nyn's healing of madness and stilling or combined efforts from Asha'man and Aes Sedai to heal Rand

28 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

Rafe confirmed the Eg used natural medicine and not the power here. 

Did we watch the same scene or did Amazon have 2 versions they showed beyond new ending? Because we literally see Egg crying and weave coming out of her and Nynaeve returns to life

On 10/11/2023 at 2:32 AM, Scarloc99 said:

when the most we have seen Egwene do is have a very powerful fart (sorry schoolboy humour). 

Egg literally healed almost dead Nynaeve without any training. No COVID is not excuse, they could change by switching Nyn and Egg, by not changing rules of circle or by not taking away Rand's scene.

18 hours ago, Skipp said:

As for the boys not getting their moment and that it was all about the girls.

Yeah, it's less about girl, more like about Egwene. She saved herself, even though she shouldn't have, clearly showing character can be self-sufficient and doesn't need any outside help. But than Rand can't get season climax on his own, he needs big strong Egwene to save him. But i'm sure that isn't playing favorites, Rand just doesn't need to be center of story, right? 6 more seasons to go, lol.

19 hours ago, Skipp said:

Rand abolsutely wrecked Turak and his routine. 

That's not exactly Rand's moment, more like emphasis on how little agency and progress he had in two seasons. Instead of letting Rand fight, show simply hand-waves storyline. To have Turak and Ingtar to say words from the book and to not have same meaning in scenes like in the book is not following source material. It's more like mocking source material. "This guy is having moral dilemma and trying to redeem himself, lol he just dies not even stalling his enemies". "This guy is stepping stone in hero's path and clear outline of Rand's growth, lol he simply dies like cartoon character".

6 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Putting the Collar on with no premeditated thoughts of harming her is 100% possible without being a "psycho".

You can't put collar without harmful  premeditation. Moment Egwene began damane training it was demonstrated to her a-dam is enslavement device nothing more, nothing less. She lived with idea that collar restricts her and suppresses her will. That's why she can't put on a-dam by herself, cause act of restriction or suppression is harmful in it self.

Only way she can justify putting collar on her master is by denying it's purpose, but for that she would need to deny herself agency and sell herself on the idea that suppression comes not from collar, but from herself. However if she denies herself agency, she doesn't need to put collar on her master. If i'm not wrong it's called catch-22.

24 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

He made the correct choice in T'a'R before freeing Ishamael. He worked his way in to get access to Logain. He killed Turak. He killed Ishamael.

Exactly he gave Ishy freedom, not exactly most heroic moment. Turak kill is literally nerf of his story, instead of meaningful struggle, show subverts scene and takes away his blade. He didn't kill Ishy by himself, he was saved by Egg and than Ishy did nothing.

31 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

. (Terrible choice, awful episode, forgivable due to circumstances as I've explained ad nauseum).

(2) Who did Egwene heal? That was Nynaeve

She healed Nynaeve in s1e8. That episode still happend. It's still part of show canon where Egg and Nyn saved the day and Rand let forsaken loose. Also showrunner gave away Tarwin's Gap to girls before covid. 

34 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

She interposed herself between Rand and Ishy. As discussed elsewhere, it is unclear to me that Ishy wanted to beat her at that point - he's playing the long game and chose to sheathe the sword.

And again she already saved herself, show didn't need to let her save the day even more. Rand could sheathe the sword and win on his own, if show would let him actually develop in organic manner and have Lan teach him.

39 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Despite being faced with incredible odds, she stood as a shield between Ishamael and Rand demonstrating her determination to protect her friends at any cost. You know, just like Egwene in the books.

Why couldn't Rand, being faced with incredible odds, stood as free man in defiance to Dark One and his lies and seduction and demonstrating his determination to not let himself succumb to darkness and become pawn and toy in Dark Ones hands. You know, just like Rand in the books.

49 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

The show is going slow with Rand on purpose so that his ascension can be given the chance to be earned.

Let's see they took away Tarwin's Gap, his blade, his betrayal and forgiveness with Ingtar, flicker, his Battle in the Sky.  What exactly he did by himself this two seasons?

51 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Many of the changes serve that purpose. 

Is this purpose to elevate Egwene? Because while show took away Rand biggest moments, she so far helped destroy army of trollocs, made most impressive healing feat in show(probably in books too, in terms of physical not mental healing), gained freedom from being damane all by herself( literally impossible) and managed to save Rand. All this no doubt earned.