20 hours ago, qlorin said:

We are agreeing on most parts... What I disagreed was "Can Rand be a political power or not"... I think he can if somebody wants to use him.... But, letting him go to anonymity is much more likely. Cadsuane doesnt want to scramble the world once more by using Rand. But if she wants she can do it. Seanchen have civil war issues... 
 

I think it highly likely that those connected to Rand, opportunists claiming to be connected to Rand, and pure speculators / madmen claiming Rand's mantle / blessing will try and use his legacy for their own purposes.

We only need look at our own world to see how this plays out and how the relics of a saviour or conqueror can be used or fabricated to claim legitimacy and advance individual's agendas.  In story the struggle after the collapse of Hawkwing's empire and Masema's claim to be Rand's prophet are good examples.  Elayne having acknowledged that her children are Rand's being another, possibly Aviendha too if some of her vision from her second trip to Rhuidean comes to pass.

It's also possible that people will claim to be ""The Dragon Reborn" Reborn"! and spread tales of their miraculous reincarnation after their death at Shayol Ghul.  This would be particularly ironic as we know it's true, even if they were lying / mad.  If people in our world believe Elvis or JFK are really still alive or came back from the dead (not to mention religious belief) then it's quite possible charlatans or "Light-blessed savants" will spring up like mushrooms.  If people fell for Masema and believed The Dragon was The Light made flesh this would not be difficult for them to believe.

Is it possible Cadsuane would wish to use Rand for her own purposes or to counter some of this?  Yes, certainly.  Post-Tarmon Gai'don is an incredibly dangerous moment with a fragile truce between the Seanchan and The Dragon's coalition likely to be under constant pressure, the White Tower badly damaged and threatened by The Black and other groups of channelers outside it's control. 

But I think the anonymity granted by the body swap and his unwillingness to be used will shield him from being a pawn - with the lighting of his pipe intended to show that, despite no longer being ta'veren or able to channel, he is not defenceless and won't be imprisoned in a gilded cage or used as a figurehead.

6 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

In the era of the books certainly but that is after 1,000 years of the three oaths, when it has been taboo to mention the age of a sister due to the life shortening effect of the oaths.  It is also worth noting that some of the strong young sisters feel that this system is wrong and would work to change it.

The Aiel and Windfinders show us different systems but both are equally rigid - the Aiel being based on age iirc, the windfinders on the ship they serve on and there place in the hierarchy rising and falling accordingly.

It's clear that raw power alone does not make one suitable for leadership but I'm not sure that any of the "strong young sisters" are against this, relying on their relative power to boss other Aes Sedai around.

Replacing power with age really tends to instability as you appoint leaders who are at the end of their life span - tri-centenarians or octo-centenarians rather than octogenarians - not to mention your best and brightest would have centuries of tea-making and shawl-fetching, or at least of subordination.  And older people tend to be resistant to change.  Magnify that three- or ten-fold and the conservatism or stagnation would be stifling.

The increased lifespans are a bad idea all round.

On 10/15/2022 at 5:25 AM, Red Eagle said:

I just don't think people give the lifespan differences enough weight.

I think the increased lifespans was a mistake and one that RJ and BS avoid the implications of for this reason.

In general terms it makes any wielder of the one power superhuman, not just by virtue of the power they wield but the length of life they have to live.  Traditionally, superheroes don't have other halves or children for precisely this reason, they would otherwise become a hereditary caste.  If the one power is not hereditary and anyone can either have the innate ability to channel or can learn it then we step around hereditary castes but run into the lifespan problem. 

E.G. Elayne as Queen of Andor will rule for 250 years.  Entire generations of Andorans will be born, live and die while this superhuman being reigns over them.  If her children and grandchildren and so forth for generations can't channel they will live and die while she reigns.  What does that do to her emotional and psychological health?  If they can channel then they become a superhuman hereditary caste.

The discrepancies between male and female lifespans based on strength in the power might not matter that much.  Once you have a vastly extended lifespan how many centuries you have might not matter, you're still part of the club.  Where it matters is where a 100 or 200 year old takes orders from an 18 year old but we've seen that play out with Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve so it's already part of the system. 

Aes Sedai follow strength in the power rather than age in establishing hierarchy so that seems the potential issue with the Asha'man, men being more powerful than women on average.  Ideal scenario is a long period of building relations and trust and the eventual merger of the two orders but, power structures and personal ambition being what they are, it's quite possible they will remain separate and argue over roles and compete for influence.  The older Aes Sedai in particular cannot be expected to embrace unity with the Asha'man and it might take centuries.  Change will come with the young and new channelers growing up in the new age.

On 10/14/2022 at 4:37 PM, qlorin said:

I disagree... There are many in the world follow Rand if he raises his banner even if he has no power... Aiel will definetly follow him in their own way... Some other nations and groups also will... I am not sure about black tower... 
 

Well, if he raises his banner then, yes, he is a potential locus of power.  As he can't channel this seems unlikely and he would simply paint a target on himself for the Seanchan or for rivals who would be jealous of his influence.  A really ruthless Cadsuane would snuff him out to prevent even the possibility that he would be a rival power centre but I think we're meant to see him shuffle off into peace and obscurity.  Remember that the world believes him dead and he looks nothing like "himself".

Black Tower were effectively abandoned by him and Logain is the Asha'man leader.

On 10/14/2022 at 4:37 PM, qlorin said:

He bacame a charismatic leader in the end... We see in the story even some false dragons without channeling abilty gathered men around them... And we are talking about real dragon reborn who saved the world... He will be the biggest political tool in the world..

False Dragons gathered men because of prophecy but with prophecy fulfilled there's no recruiting drum to bang.  His destiny has been fulfilled and the world believes him dead.  The story could have been set up to have him live and lead his alliance for hundreds of years - or whatever lifespan he has - contending with the Seanchan or Sharans but, like Frodo, we're shown his labours ended and a life of peace and anonymity his reward.

On 10/12/2022 at 8:24 PM, qlorin said:

After that point actually the surviving ones done great things. Greandal single handedly destroyed generals of the light... Demandread brought amazing armies to battelfield... M'hael nearly destroyed reality... Moridin was in the bore... Lanfear made a almost perfect trap... Moghadien uhhmmm... done something... 😄 
 

Sanderson does a great job of turning the surviving Forsaken from arrogant, debauched, squabbling narcissists into truly formidable and accomplished opponents.  Demandred in particular, equipped with  a sa'angreal, is almost invincible.  Well, okay, arrogance proves his downfall too, but he lives up to the reputation of the Forsaken beforehand.

7 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Except that in Europe for centuries the Catholic church did have its own legal system and (at times) military forces.  

Well, the Chuch established ecclesiastical laws over it's lands by special circumstance of it's spiritual role not military force: monks, nuns, friars and run of the mill clergymen not being part of a military order.  That caused a large amount of friction in medieval and early modern Europe (King John, Henry II and Thomas a Becket, Henry VIII and the English Reformation to name a few) but there were no puppet kings like the king of Amadicia.

Orders like the Knights Templar or Hospitaller were established specifically to fight for the recovery of Christian lands and they were a military-political-religious force in the lands they conquered with no special laws, courts or powers in Europe proper.

There is no equivalent spiritual role for The Whitecloaks to leverage, religion being unorganised in story, and no reason for a ruler to let them in and establish themselves.  The options are force / bullying their way in as Pedron Niall was planning with Andor (first by a coup to unseat Morgase during a period of unrest (TEOTW) and then by blackmailing her into granting him what he wanted when she was his prisoner (later in story)), or by establishing themselves where there is no authority / conquering new lands.  Neither of these options have a great chance of success given how militarised society is after The Last Battle.

Plus, in story, their ideology specifically rests on Aes Sedai and all those touching the one power being darkfriends.  With the victory over The Dark One, the cleansing of the source and the growing familiarity of people with Aes Sedai, Asha'man, Windfinders, Wise Ones and even damane, not to mention the example of The Dragon Reborn, it's hard to see how that ideology will win new converts.

2 hours ago, JyP said:

for me, it would be the equivalent of the "True power" bestowed by the Dark One : a power bestowed by the Creator to successful Dragons (or max level ta'veren).

With power comes a burden of responsibility and the ending is meant to show us his task is complete, not that he's on course for a new one so would RJ really want to give him such power? 

If he's just going to light his pipe or make fireworks for young hobbits like Gandalf it's ok though.

17 hours ago, pig said:

In Cadsuane's POV, the book does state "That would be information she could use" which makes me believe she will use Rand in some way.

It's possible I suppose but, as a lot of people saw him die and cremated, not to mention the world believed The Dragon was prophesied to die at Shayol Ghul, it would be difficult to make people believe.  Aes Sedai can't lie but they can twist the truth into a pretzel so whatever she said there is this guy who looks nothing like Rand al'Thor.

Plus he can't channel and is no longer ta'veren so has limited use to her and presents no possible opposing or contending locus of power.  Essentially he's like Frodo, shorn of the ring, settling back into obscurity (concealed obscurity in this case) after his labours and sacrifices.  That's what I think RJ was aiming for.  If Cadsuane does try to appropriate him there is that question of how he lit his pipe and she might be in for a surprise...

21 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Sorry, I forgot the sarcasm emoji.  Was playing on a joke from the series.

Eh, I figured I might be missing your intent 🙂

On 10/8/2022 at 10:56 AM, Red Eagle said:

She thinks that the Stedding (suddenly or incrementally) expand from their present points radially, until they cover the entire surface of the Earth. (During those Ages where channeling seems to not be a thing.)

 

There's also the Asha'man being innately much less conservative/risk averse. The WT has entire rooms full of devices they don't even allow anyone in the same room with. Whereas fatal training accidents are just a thing in the BT. 

It's an interesting idea.  Stedding are anomalies, places where the force that drives the Wheel of Time and is otherwise present throughout the world (universe?) cannot be tapped or even sensed.  Far Madding possesses a great ter'angreal that prevents channeling or sensing the source within it's boundaries, something created by Aes Sedai at the end of the Age of Legends / during the breaking of the world and likely modelled on or inspired by their knowledge of ogier stedding.  But the nature or formation of stedding is never explained in series.

I tend to think that technology replaces magic as technology can be made accessible to all whereas magic can only be wielded by a few so people begin to rely on technology and the need for or use of magic becomes rarer until it finally is abandoned then forgotten.  But there's a vast span of time between where we are at the beginning of the fourth age (of seven) and the first age in which no knowledge or memory of the power exists so there's no path mapped out.

The Asha'man were created for a single purpose, to become living weapons to fight against The Dark One during Tarmon Gai'don, and they were created in the sure knowledge they would go mad and need to be killed in the not too distant future.

The cleansing of the source and the victory in the last battle changes that completely as they now can live and need to seek a new purpose, something we see with Androl and Logain in particular on the Field of Merrilor.  If you're training for a virtual suicide mission and know that if you somehow survive you will go mad and die / be killed not long after you will take risks that you won't if you return from that mission, sane and in the knowledge you will remain sane (or mostly sane!) and can live a full and happy life.  It's worth remembering that some of the Asha'man are married (e.g. Grady), even before the reciprocal bonding with Aes Sedai leads more of them into relationships (e.g. Narishma, Logain, Androl).  These are powerful reasons to become more risk averse and to revise training methods and general conduct.

7 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Cadsuane?  I thought she was dead...

Cadsuane is just about revealed as the new Amyrlin at the end.  We're in her pov as she watches Rand ride away in Moridin's body.

6 hours ago, pig said:

If Rand is revealed as alive, especially without the power to channel anymore, I feel like the Aes Sedai, Seanchan, etc would make his like suck.

As he can't channel and intends to lie low I think Cadsuane will be content to let the world believes he is dead.  Much easier for her to go about rebuilding the power of the Aes Sedai, dealing with the Asha'man and generally projecting the Amyrlin Seat as the leader of the "free world" with Rand out of the way.

And for all the (for me) unpleasant way she wields authority and browbeats and bullies those around her she's no Elaida and I don't think he need fear assassination.  She considers the world owes Rand a debt of gratitude and the least part of that is leaving him in peace.

14 hours ago, Dedicated said:

But Jordan's illustration of it seems to collectively reflect a "delicateness" in the nature of female Aes Sedai. While Nynaeve's visualization is very different. There is no delicateness in it. It's harsh and punishing. Not unlike the Aiel's culture which could support the reasoning for the Aiel taking to Nynaeve at first (eg: Avienda and her group noted that Nynaeve acted and spoke like a wise-one when they first met). 

 

I always chalked this up to her personality, but if Nynaeve is a new thread in the pattern could her visualization and personality be a kind of sign of changes to come for female Aes Sedai?

 

Anyways Nynaeve did things that were previously thought impossible to do and her image of herself being a thorn rather than a flower bud might be an indication of a new evolution for female Aes Sedai. 

Saidar is embraced by the woman opening herself to it and in effect surrendering herself.  Saidin needs to be wrestled with and is embraced by seizing hold of it, represented as a struggle for the wielder.  Nynaeve, being Nynaeve, is not good at surrender or acceptance hence her block which it takes a long time to overcome.  Weirdly the only time she can embrace saidar is when she is angry which suggests the opposite of surrender but she does eventually learn (after nearly drowning in Ebou Dar) how to embrace saidar without being angry.  I believe her visualisation is just a reflection of her personality as is the reaction of the Aiel maidens to her no-nonsense style and habit of commanding everyone around her, very similar to how the Wise Ones project and wield authority.

The story is set at the birth of a new age with lots of new discoveries - primarily technological as we see steam power born and explosive ordinance used in warfare - but both "new discoveries" of old things are made with The One Power as Moghedien is pumped for information and all of Nynaeve, Aviendha, Egwene and Elayne independently rediscover old things; and genuine new discoveries are made, whether by Nynaeve, Egwene, or Androl alone or in conjunction with Pevara.  In this sense Nynaeve is part of a larger pattern.

I think not so much filler, as undeveloped.  The Seafolk are based on offshore islands so it's very hard to work them into the story in a coherent way.  E.G. Books 4 to 7 are dominated by the Aiel and Rand's interactions with the maidens but then they move into the background as Rand moves on and apart from Aviendha's second trip to Rhuidean we never visit The Waste after Book 5.  Any attempt to work the Seafolk in would have similar results as they are primarily there for worldbuilding and are of secondary rather than primary importance to the story - no Seafolk character ever fully emerges as Tuon and Aviendha do and we have plenty of Channelers without them.

The danger with every fictional world is that the author digresses into showing you his creations rather than telling the story.  By the time we were visiting Far Madding and Bandar Eban, not to mention Mat spending a third of the series in Ebou Dar, it seemed RJ was determined to show us every corner of his world.  I think leaving "non-Randland", i.e., Seanchan, Shara and the Seafolk Isles unexplored was the right decision. 

The Coramoor prophecy is useful as it shows the Dragon is expected by everyone, just as he who comes with the dawn is expected by the Aiel and Bao, The Wyld, by the Sharans and each people have their own expectations of what that means for them.  It's an unprecedented period of upheaval and opportunity for them and they try and navigate it as best they can.  The fact that their society is hierarchical, rigid and strict to the point of cruelty does not make them very engaging in story (none of the Aiel humour) so I'm fine with them not taking up more page time.  I do agree that their story purpose - providing shipping on demand - seems quite underwhelming, particularly as The Last Battle is fought in The Borderlands Cairhien and Andor.

On 12/4/2021 at 4:10 AM, HeWhoRunsWithTheSpears said:

Does anyone else feel that this plot point is one of the worst in the entire series? I'm sure it's been brought up countless times, but I just want to give my two cents on it. I don't understand why Jordan felt the need to connect him to Elayne and Aviendha. CLEARLY the only real connection he has is to Min. They actually have a pretty decent love story going. There is absolutely no endgame for his "relationship" (if you can even call it that) with Elayne and Aviendha.

 

I read this whole series as an adult and this bugged me the entire time. It seemed like a teenager's fantasy (being written by a man in his 50s-60s, all the more creepy). It's not like Rand's relationship with Elayne and Aviendha even served any sort of fantasy narrative purpose. 

 

Someone convince me I'm wrong?

I tend to have two takes on this.

The first is the same as yours.  I read Rand's "love story" as a missed opportunity for a believable story of emotional and sexual maturing from a sheltered village youth from a conservative society into an adult more able to understand and process his feelings and emotions (an opportunity RJ messes up with the trinity of wives).

So Rand starts believing he will marry his childhood sweetheart even though they don't have much contact, he living on a farm outside Emond's Field - have they ever even kissed?  When this assumed union dissipates as they become adults with lives heading in different directions, Rand has the first fumbling of a physical and emotional relationship with Elayne in Tear but this only amounts to a bit of kissing and whispering before they part.  Rand is then subjected to Aviendha, whose tempestuous and volatile nature makes for a love hate relationship before they sleep together - once - and then part.  The mysterious Selene, revealed as Lanfear, is looming and enticing in the background throughout this period. 

Rand then meets Min again, after a brief earlier encounter in Baerlon, and she becomes his lover and, to me at least, his soulmate.  Unlike the politics that Elayne and Aviendha cannot avoid bringing into their relations with Rand, Min just want him and he wants her.  They're good for each other and Rand seems to have found a woman who will make him happy. The exes or the might have beens for whom he has tangled feelings and perhaps regrets - and we've all been there - belong to his past and is where they are better consigned but RJ brings them all together as a group.  This doesn't really work for me as it seems to avoid the need for mature decisions and genuine commitment (polygamy and polyandry, unless the latter is part of formative or experimental behaviour in youth, being oddities to me, though maybe not to others).

The second take is that, as Rand is not just ta'veren but uber ta'veren and Dragon Reborn, he influences people unexpectedly and is therefore stuck with three women loving him whom he also loves.  This gives RJ opportunity to both put him and the "wives" through the wringer of human emotions, including  embarrassment and awkwardness at the situation, something which appeals to RJ's sense of humour, that for all of each of the four's political power, Channeling or seer ability, they are completely out of their depth, comfort zone and fumbling about.  Given only Aviendha comes from a  society that accepts polygamy and Rand comes from a conservative background I find this unrealistic and that it takes up too much of the books but it is part of RJ's portrayal of Rand as a young man who suddenly has the weight of the world put on his shoulders as well as the usual trials of adolescence / early adulthood to deal with.

On 9/6/2022 at 2:51 PM, wotfan4472 said:

There exists one other point, that the books point out. Because the Black Ajah were present in that quorum, and the bare minimum was present, it was an illegal vote, and one that was manipulated by Mesanna behind the curtains, so to speak. Later scenes show that. It also shows there existed no clear way of dealing with that issue of infiltration.

However, what Egwene did in taking the Three Oaths and retaking them, I actually wonder if the Hall will impose that step in critical votes in the future, on top of what Egwene insisted on.

That a full meeting of all Hall Sitters and Amyrlin  be present, even in debates of whether or not deposing an Amyrlin should be done.

I agree that Black Ajah Sitters and Mesaana were involved but the impetus came from Elaida and the majority of her supporters were not black.  Indeed the Aes Sedai in general are in denial about the Black Ajah and so the Black Ajah's involvement does does not play a factor in the opposition to Elaida. 

On a tangent, I think the Black Ajah were mishandled in the story.  At the start they are a secret society whose existence is rumoured but has never been discovered or any individual sister's allegiance proven.  E.G. Elaida and her supporters seem completely unaware of the existence of the Black Ajah until Seiane and Pevara (using the oath rod) uncover Talene (a Green Sitter) and Seaine actually misunderstands her orders from Elaida who simply wants her to provide a pretext for removing Alviarin rather than hunting the Black Ajah.  As the story goes on we learn they are organised in to hearts, groups of three, with each knowing only the identity of one other sister outside the heart. 

This seems fine for a small secret society hidden in The Tower but the final revelation in the last few books that there are hundreds of black sisters, and that something between one in four and one in three Aes Sedai are really darkfriends is too much.  Did none of those hundreds ever utter a lie, however trivial, in the hearing of another sister, in the three thousand years The Tower has stood?  I mean look at how easily Verin revealed herself to Egwene, intentionally of course but it shows how easy it is to slip in a little white lie in an unguarded moment, or how Galina lied to Faile in attempting to escape Thevara.

Egwene's procedural changes are smart and add stability but she is only able to do this as a "strong" Amyrlin at the peak of her powers after her inspirational defence of The Tower against the Seanchan.  The Aes Sedai are revealed as intensely competitive, ambitious and jealous of their own prerogatives, and Tower politics to be a petty, dangerous and backstabbing morass at the best of times, so it's also easy to see a future Hall taking back powers and prerogatives from a future Amyrlin (not Cadsuane, though!), particularly as the Black Ajah is believed annihilated.

The Hall is 3 Sitters from each ajah = 21.  A quorum of 11 (>50%) is required for the Hall to sit.  If an Amyrlin is to be deposed neither she, nor the ajah she was raised from are informed, but all other ajahs must be represented by at least one Sitter.  The Greater consensus is required to depose her = the vote of every Sitter present.

Technically, Elaida met those conditions by persuading 11 Sitters from the other six ajahs to meet and depose Siuan.  There is a strong argument all 18 Sitters (the Blue alone excluded) should have met and in this case the motion would have failed, the greater consensus not being met.

The motion to depose her is controversial - she is as good as named as a Darkfriend - and once it's published Hammar and Coulin lead the warders from the blue and green to rescue her.  We're also told that Elaida didn't wait to see if The Blue Ajah would stand for Siuan and that every Blue sister who was in Tar Valon at the time either fled or was killed.  For supporters of Siuan from other ajahs that must have been abhorrent and represented a real danger - even if they towed the line they would be suspect and they could easily have been dragged into the fighting.  E.G. when Min returns to The Tower she sees three Aes Sedai together and knows they will all die on the same day, which turns out to be the day of the coup, and those three aren't all blue.

Once they have fled the way back is difficult and Elaida's behaviour is hardly conducive to reconciliation.  They of course procrastinate horribly until Siuan's ruse with Logain and Egwene's impetus.

20 hours ago, VooDooNut said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Faile spends all her time livid with Perrin for his non-existent romance with Berelain and fails to ever mention her multiple sexualized encounters, especially a certain torch-lit evening,  with Rolan. nbd.

 

RJ certainly wrote his character well. Warts and all.

Yes, indeed.  Perrin actually suspects something about Rolan but dismisses it as irrelevant, "women can have their secrets" (sic).  But then Faile has a jealous nature while Perrin does not.  I pity Perrin for that as it means he can't have any female friends - how Faile reacted to Min makes that clear.

On 8/17/2022 at 10:57 PM, JenaVi said:

Not all leaders are liked or make friends with people. Some people lead with an iron fist, which is early Nynaeve, thanks to the stubborn people she dealt with in Emond's Field. Nynaeve has had leadership skills the whole series. It was Nynaeve, as early as book 2, that leads the rescue of Egwene. It's also mentioned she's good at politics... when it matters. She just doesn't care to be patient with people. She is rough with others and herself. Over the series, she learns to accept herself and others, which turns her into a better leader, but I bet she still brooks no non-sense. 

Nynaeve is smart, decisive, quick to see what needs to be done and take control of the situation.  She is absolutely terrible at sharing control or decision making with anyone else, however, disinclined to listen to anyone else's point of view or suggestions.  And she has a foul temper and lashes out at those she considers foolish, (mostly men - "man-brained" is one of her insults).  E.G. The series starts with her interrupting the Village Council who are discussing Padan Fain's news, turfing Thom out of The Winepring Inn Common room under threat of violence and with the young Emond Fielders reminiscing about when she actually hit Cenn Buie, a member of the Village Council, over the head when he annoyed her. 

No one else in Emond's Field acts like this.  The Village Council - Bran al'Vere, Tam al'Thor, Harral Luhan - are all laid back easy going types and The Women's Circle - Marin al'Vere, Alsbet Luhan - seem simple, kind and peaceable country folk.  There's no need for petty tyrants or skullthumpers in The Two Rivers to get things done or keep people in line.  Nynaeve is just Nynaeve.

She's actually at her best when she doesn't have to work with anyone and doesn't have responsibility over other people, that's what gets her growling and shouting and tugging her braid.  Top moments for Nynaeve are dueling and capturing Moghedien, healing Logain, Siuan and Leane, - moments of huge importance but where she can either act alone or where she is acting in conjunction with an equal rather than leading or commanding people. 

Egwene is the one who becomes a highly effective leader because she was willing to learn.  Elayne, too, but she has been raised for command.  Perrin develops into a pretty good leader once he overcomes his reluctance to lead and can see beyond his love of Faile.  Mat becomes a charismatic general soldiers are queueing up to follow (success does bear fruit).  Nynaeve actually seems better when she's not in a leadership position and can just do her own thing and to realise this as the series goes on.  That's how I took it at any rate.

On 8/10/2022 at 3:41 PM, bluetear111 said:

With regards to show vs books, id have to say i think the books are superior. I understand it must be a huge task to adapt the books into any form of tv or film, but upon reflection parts of the show didn't quite sit right with me.

 

i just hope amazon stick with this so they can tell the full story in the show, and not cancel after 3 seasons for example.

When it was announced that Amazon were adapting the series I had reservations.  RJ wrote a 14 book cycle and the average book length is c. 800 pages.  Does a tv audience have the appetite and attention span for such a lengthy series?  Do the actors want to tie themselves in for years?  Given the size of the cast of characters in the series and the different locations, nations, peoples and cultures is there any way an audience can tune in for an hour a week for, say, 8 weeks, every year or eighteen months for, say, two decades and keep it all straight in their heads?

I'm glad it brought you to the books though, enjoy!

On 8/10/2022 at 5:24 PM, bluetear111 said:

Out of interest for people who are far more seasoned in the books than i am, what are your early impressions of the show so far? Only the first season down? Promising? Disappointed? whats the feeling?

It was okay but it didn't grab me.  I am something of a purist so dislike large amendments to characters and story line, e.g.

don't sit well with me. 

19 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Rand can reshape reality. He doesn't need to know how dna works, to alter her to the genetic level.

Now that's a stretch.  Rand wills Bela to keep up in the early part of the first book.  His use of the power is unconscious and unknowing, just as when he frees the boom on The Spray to clatter the Trolloc about to spit him or latches on to a lightning bolt in a thunder storm to break out of the cellar he and Mat are trapped in by Howel Gode (I think).  I'm with him having used the technique Moiraine uses to take away their and their horses' fatigue or something very similar to it.  Bela is still recognisably Bela afterwards: a poor rider like Siuan commandeers her because of her placid nature and gentle pace.

Rand isn't the creator, and particularly in the first book his use of the power is limited and accidental.  No willing Bela into a superequine being just because he wishes it so, at least not for me.  The problems of that line of thinking or that power are obvious: what and who else might Rand alter either accidentally or deliberately and for the worse as well as the better?  Why not will it so that the Trollocs chasing them become slow and clumsy or turn the fades leading them into mushrooms?

51 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Where did I say he was the reincarnation of Aginor? That doesn't even make sense because Aginor was literally alive at the Eye of the World for like 6 seconds.

I think @DojoToad is just pointing out that Aginor is the storied geneticist who conducted all kinds of experiments and altered or created a number of life forms, none of them with good intentions or outcomes.  Rand wills Bela to run because he's worried about Egwene and has no idea what he's doing (indeed that he's doing anything) let alone the secrets of DNA recombination and gene editing for superior stamina, survivability, enhanced recovery from apparently mortal wounds, etc...  If Rand could do that to a horse there are troubling implications.

We can go with the idea that Bela is something special and The Companion confirms this or with the idea that it's just a meme played on for the audience's amusement.  I find the latter much more plausible with Bela's death on page clear (in my opinion) and the tongue in cheek entry in The Companion about her having miraculously survived, being alive years later and having reared two foals just a humorous Easter egg for The Companion Reader.

6 hours ago, Remodel said:

Wheel of Time Companion clarified charaters for me.  It also has comments on some survivors of the the last battle which were not in the books.  It is not complete on the survivors though, leaving out who among the Aes Sedia died.  Helpful and disappointing at the same time.

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The description of the battle in the book describes a field filled with colored [clothes] bodies from their deaths.

 

In the book Bela took a wound and fell.  No death was mentioned.  The companion stated she recovered and was taken back to the Two Rivers.

 

My AMOL edition re Bela (Kindle, Page 849):

7 hours ago, RextheDog said:

but yes, the series is a bit dated in some aspects...i think i just bury myself in the world he created instead of being dissappointed by chracter flaws.

It's a fascinating point how quickly attitudes change and how well or poorly works age.  We have tv shows like "It was acceptable in the 70s" where we are meant to react with shock at how people thought a generation ago.  Shows like Friends or comedy creations like Ali G from the 90s hit raw nerves or cross lines for some today.

Fantasy is meant to be immune from that in that it isn't set in and isn't meant to reflect the condition and attitudes of the real world.  We have to be able to relate, to sympathise and to empathise with our characters adn their predicament but is best if we enjoy the ride rather than look to identify, judge or see our values reflected.

The battle of the sexes is annoying because it's an exaggeration and magnifies the stereotypes the author adapts for the story and because it's ever present.  Still, the characters are mostly young, impulsive, strong-willed and inexperienced in dealing with the opposite sex and all growing into their adult selves as well as to fill important leadership roles so some level of confusion, bickering and conflict is warranted.  It's just too much 🙂

5 hours ago, Andra said:

I wouldn't exactly call Thom an "everyman."  Though we don't find out just how much he isn't until later.  But we also find out fairly early on that he has a very specific personal reason to be wary of them.

 

He finds out later that it's it's just Reds who did him dirty, but at the beginning of the story he doesn't know that.  Since they had come and gone before he got to his nephew, and found what had happened.

Yes but Goji is a first time reader a little into TGH so Thom, who shuffles off stage at Whitebridge, appears as a knowledgeable and well-travelled man, particularly compared to our country bumpkins, so his wariness reinforces their unease rather than helping to correct their preconceptions.

On 8/5/2022 at 9:15 PM, Goji said:

Okay so I’m a fairly new reader (up to ch 7 in the Great Hunt, so please no spoilers beyond that) and already I’m severely annoyed by the Emond’s Fielders’ attitude towards Moiraine. Sometimes they trust her, other times they look at her with suspicion. Oh we need protection from Trollocs or the Dark One? “Moiraaaaiiine, HEEELP.” Oh but she’s an Aes Sedai, “WHAT A MANIPULATIVE SNAKE.” The fact that she’s even saving them at all should elicit some kind of trust, and the fact that she risks herself to do so. I get that she’s stronghanded and secretive, and sometimes cold, but that is severely outweighed by the good she does for them. She’s literally the best hope they have at surviving, and the most informed on matters regarding the Dark One, Wheel of Time, One Power, etc. Surely the suspicion should have at least faded a bit by the time they reach book 2… I don’t want them to completely trust her, I just don’t like that they treat her like some kind of dangerous animal.

 

It doesn’t help that she’s our first real introduction to Aes Sedai. I think this was handled poorly by the story. We’re told that Aes Sedai are scheming, dangerous, responsible for destruction, etc. But the first one we see is seemingly compassionate, level-headed, helpful, etc. We as readers aren’t even given enough to hate or distrust Aes Sedai like the rest of the world supposedly does, and that’s why it’s annoying to read the Emond’s Fielders treating their only true companion like shit. Realistic as their prejudice might be, it’s still frustrating, and it’s hard to get on with the prejudice as a reader. It’s a bit overboard for me. 
 

If the story wanted us to be suspicious of Moiraine, it should have made her way more shady, less helpful, less likeable, etc. Maybe that’s just me tho. Moiraine and Lan are by far my favorite characters so far. 

They know absolutely nothing about Aes Sedai and all the stories they learn in their backwater are that Aes Sedai are dangerous and not to be trusted.  Even after Moiraine and Lan save Emond's Field from the Trollocs some of the Coplins and Congars scrawl The Dragon's Fang on the Inn door and demand that Moiraine and Lan leave or they'll burn them out.  Some of the stories they know say they are darkfriends, some even say the Aes Sedai were responsible for The Breaking of The World.  They are in awe of Moiraine but also afraid of her and fear being caught up in Aes Sedai schemes - even if they don't know what that means - almost as much as Trollocs or The Dark One.

Moiraine's issue is she offers help but also tells them little making them suspicious of her intentions.  Even everyman Thom is wary of Aes Sedai.  And they have dreams that tell them not to trust Aes Sedai - quite simply the three boys are being manipulated to distrust her.  From time to time she tells them she will not let The Dark One have them but it's clear she sees them as expendable in the last resort to deny The Dark One and that's got to be uncomfortable for a bunch of teenagers who have had their lives turned upside down. 

Imagine if Gandalf didn't explain anything about the ring to Frodo and instead of having a reputation for  making fireworks had a reputation for deception, manipulation and using people up in carrying out his schemes and at night the hobbits had nightmares that warned them that wizards were untrustworthy deceivers.  The Fellowship wouldn't have been a very comfortable one.

Also, Nynaeve is, well, Nynaeve, and she has her own reasons for disliking Moiraine.

I always liked Moiraine but one glimpse of Elaida or Liandrin who I think you've met and you can see why the suspicion or fear would be there.