1 hour ago, Andra said:

Luc and Isam both there after being linked by the Dark Prophecy?  With Luc being injured in the waking world after Slayer is shot in the Dream?  Luc, Isam and Slayer are all parts of a whole.

I agree with this but on a first read through it might not jump out and what does jump out is still confusing.  The clues are there, sometimes many books apart, but

1 minute ago, Pembie said:

How did I miss something that important lol

It's deliberately teased out in dribs and drabs over a very long time and it's downright confusing anyway ?

3 hours ago, Pembie said:

And do Rand and Ian know about it or just Perrin I didn’t realise the connections 

They don't.  Only Perrin has encountered Luc in the waking world (in The Two Rivers during The Shadow Rising) or Slayer in Tel'aran'rhiod.  Well, Nynaeve has one momentary encounter with Slayer in TAR when she considers that he looks like a bit like Lan right before he tries to kill her. 

None of our characters realise the familial connections Andra noted above.  It is generally believed that Isam died as a child when Malkier was overrun and that Luc died in The Blight, both events 20 or so years before our story begins.

On 12/14/2021 at 1:47 PM, wotfan4472 said:

Gaidal Cain and Brigette are exempt, because they have a purpose. As a result, they both have physical features that recur with each life

Why, though?  Surely the only soul with a defined purpose is that of the Champion of The Light, i.e. Rand al'Thor / Lews Therin Telamon / ad infinitum....

The most memorable life of the soul seems a plausible explanation for the physical characteristics in TAR and when the horn is sounded.  Birgitte appears as Birgitte Silverbow because that is more memorable than the other lives she tells Elayne about.  Artur Hawkwing appears as Artur Hawkwing because his achievements in that life outshone those in all his other incarnations when he rubbed shoulders with or fought "Lews Therin".

But that last is confusing to me in it's own right.  Why would the soul of Artur Hawkwing have all these memories of past lives where he fought against the champion of the light?  If The Wheel turns infinitely, all things are possible I guess and any scenario can be constructed including the champion of the light living lives in multiple ages without a conflict with The Dark One and just engaging in some good old human politicking and warfare.

Or simply RJ hadn't thought about it that much and wanted to give a feeling of a vast amount of time and a number of legends and stories bout heroes and picking Birgitte and Artur Hawkwing felt right.

On 11/27/2021 at 2:55 PM, wotfan4472 said:

Once Rand dies, he will be a Hero with that form, until he next shows up as the Dragon and is born back into the world.

Can the champion of the light be tied to the horn?  That feels like too much power. 

On 11/27/2021 at 4:34 AM, lordofsoup said:

However Hawkwing calls Rand Lews Therin.  Does this mean that Lews Therin is the original name of the Dragon?  I had kind of always just assumed that it was his birth name in his previous reincarnation.

I would agree with your assumption.  The soul of the champion of the light was born in this age as Rand al'Thor and in The Age of Legends as Lews Therin Telamon. In previous ages the champion would have had other names.

Hawkwing calling him LTT at a point in story when Rand is still refusing to accept who or what he is makes it clear to us and far harder for him to deny it.  He finally raises the Dragon Banner only after Falme and he still goes to Tear in TDR to test whether he really is "The One" but he's now heard it from a source other than Aes Sedai trying to manipulate him (as he sees it). 

55 minutes ago, Asthereal said:

To be fair, Mat's a smart man, and it's not that big of a stretch to assume that he figured out that "losing half the light of the world in order to save the world" means that Moiraine will have a pivotal role in the victory of the Light, so this rescue attempt must succeed.

Oh, I agree.  What I meant was there is, for me, a disconnect between the Mat who has gained enough maturity and responsibility to undertake an impossible rescue mission and sacrifice his eye in the process and the Mat who then decides to head to Ebou Dar as it's as far from Rand as he can get, leaving Talmanes to lead The Band in his place.

The first action is who Mat has become, the second is who he was around FoH and the battle of Cairhien. I know having characters in conflict and torn between duty and heart's desire is pretty necessary but the balance just felt off in Mat to me.

The badger in the sack on the Green is the Mat of his childhood who didn't have a care in the world.  He's just killed (sort of) The Gholam and is about to rescue Moiraine so it felt to me that Sanderson wanted something light-hearted and roguish to capture the essence of Mat but came up short (refers to cheat sheet: dice, drink, women, swearing, prankster - "hmm, what would he do?").

I read BS Mat thinking he was trying too hard to find humorous things for Mat to do that made me notice the switch from RJ: the character back stories he writes out, the sweetbuns for Joline, the overly brusque note to Elayne, the captured badger.  These don't feel like what RJ would have written to me.  It's a minor complaint at most but it jumped out at me first and second time reading.

4 hours ago, JyP said:

With Jordan, I feel that most inner dialogues from WoT's main protagonists are clearly written somewhat tongue-in-cheek, to show that how they perceive themselves and how what are effectively doing are two different things. 

 

Nynaeve obviously wears the same clothes than in Emond's Field somewhat and has never changed, Perrin is no lord, Mat is no hero, Elayne is not a glutton nor reckless. And during the girls' adventures, they don't enjoy clothes and are obviously wearing the same clothes than others.

I agree with this mostly.  There is a great deal of humour wrapped up in characters insisting in their own internal voice why they are doing something, or that they are doing something because of x and most definitely not because of y, when we are given to understand instinctively or because it's splashed around for us that it's really y even if they don't want to admit to themselves.

But the danger in that is never accepting that the character's internal voice or reasoning is valid.  E.G. Perrin does not want to become a lord but the Pattern / Fate / Duty (and Faile) combine to force him that way.  Mat does not want to have an affair with Tylin and his actions bear this out far more than any doubts as to his internal reasoning.

4 hours ago, JyP said:

And he stays in the palace because he has to protect Nynaeve, Elayne and Aviendha, as he promised to do so to Rand. And he would not displease Tylin by being impolite. And the Pattern conspires so he doesn't find any room outside.

 

...remember he doesn't see the 3 girls for days, even weeks in the Palace ? And he even says they should have an escort whenever they go outside, but they are safe enough inside.

 

He would not displease Tylin... since when Mat is polite ? It's because she has a son, Beslan, which could attack him afterwards, and Mat typically doesn't like dangerous situations.

 

He doesn't find any room outside... well he could anyway (Mat is more than resourceful), but the palace feels more comfy, even with Tylin's shenanigans.

This just serves to highlight the difficulty of the situation he finds himself in.  My money is on him as ta'veren being caught by the Pattern: he has to remain in The Palace in Ebou Dar until Tuon arrives and he has to be close to Tylin to meet her to fulfill the Aelfinn's prophecy.  After all that is the reason he is stuck in Ebou dar from the end of LoC to CoT.  Your remarks might seem to put a different gloss on his actions but I think we can take him at face value:

He does intend to protect Elayne (and Nynaeve) and saves Elayne's life from the gholam in The Rahad and goes so far as to offer her his foxhead medallion once he learns Moghedien balefired two of his men.  Moving into the palace is part of the bargain he makes with Elayne and Nynaeve in turn for allowing him to protect them and when he agrees, the dice start (stop?) spinning in his head, an indication something important will follow from this.  Bear in mind Mat had already been to the palace and left a note for Elayne and Nynaeve: Tylin makes her first approach to him and he escapes as fast as he decently can and is extremely reluctant to go back.  He does listen to the dice though.

Elayne and Nynaeve go out of there way to avoid him, wearing the mirror of mists so neither he, his men, nor Thom and Juilin, can follow their movements.  Mat has men watching for them leaving so he can follow and "protect" them.  He's not staying here because he secretly wants Tylin to catch him.

Yes, he worries about offending Tylin and Beslan.  The man fights duels at the drop of a hat and in one scene Beslan returns from a duel and announces the man he fought slipped so he killed him by accident rather than wounding him.  Mat is a foreigner who is incredibly vulnerable to the displeasure of the royal family.  He can't afford to offend these people.  Sure he could run but he can't while Elayne and Nynaeve are being hunted by a gholam and Moghedien.  He's trapped by his promises, sense of duty and The Pattern.

But the remarks you made don't for me overcome Mat avoiding the palace after their initial meeting, locking his room, barricading his door with a chair when Tylin takes the key, moving Olver into his rooms to deter her, trying to creep into and out of the palace at early/late times by side entrances, trying to grab food from the kitchens to avoid having to dine alone with Tylin, trying not to be noticed by servants so Tylin will know he is back in the palace.

When he finally loses his patience with her attentions she pulls a knife on him, holds it to his throat and cuts his clothes off.  He certainly isn't encouraging her.

4 hours ago, JyP said:

 

Nor the first nor the other, I feel that a lot of things are left unsaid. Mat's behavior around Tylin for example, as we know he is very prone to leering, even if he thinks he is ogling girls "safely and properly".

 

If we say that Tylin is a female counterpart to Mat, her too should have an uncanny knack for picking women who wanted to be chased. 

Again, any idea that Mat is unwittingly giving Tylin signals to chase him that she is correctly interpreting  seems off, at least to me.  If she thought he wanted to be chased why would she need to forbid the kitchens to feed him to try and force him to come to her?

I would bounce this around.  We see in FoH that Valan Luca pursues Nynaeve.  We know she wants no part of him but he interprets her rejection as an invitation to persist.  There's a scene where he sits next to her and she keeps moving her stool further away and he keeps following her.  Either 1) Luca misreads Nynaeve or, 2) Nynaeve does not understand herself what she is doing but is secretly flattered by Luca's attentions.  I'm with 1) for both Nynaeve and Mat. 

Equally, either Tylin is 1) Luca and is misreading Mat or 2) she doesn't care either way.  I'm with 2) for Tylin.

5 hours ago, JyP said:

And obviously Mat didn't want to be chased : it's something he didn't even conceive. He was definitely attracted by Tylin nonetheless. 

This seems to me the heart of what RJ was trying to get at with the role reversal.  What must it be like for someone to be pursued against their will and, once caught (however caught), how confusing the emotions must be: some level of admiration / affection for the other party, definitely some level of attraction and sexual satisfaction due to the looks, skill and experience of the older lover, but embarrassment and shame that everyone knows they are a plaything or conquest of the powerful alpha.  Mat is Tylin's Toy and he resents that because it's common knowledge: every palace servant and every woman, barring Nynaeve but including Elayne, chortle at his predicament which is humiliating for him. 

It's a role reversal for the stereotypical male alpha and Mat is really just a vehicle for us to see these ideas expounded on page.  I don't think we should read anything too much into Mat's own character or sexual behaviour from this (it doesn't fit him at all) as it's intended to show that it could happen to anyone if the circumstances were right.  He chooses Mat because Perrin and Rand are both far more straight-laced and already in love (though Perrin has his own unwanted pursuit by Berelain to deal with).  At least that's my take on it.

5 hours ago, JyP said:

As I said before : nowadays we are a lot more attuned to consent and power issues. Things must be clearly said so there's no misunderstandings. But it was not the case whenever the book was written.

I first read the then-published books of WOT in 1997, so I probably first read the Mat-Tylin arc in 1997-2000.  We may talk about these issues with different language or different common reference points as you say but my underlying view from my 2022 re-read hasn't changed since then.  Tylin is a cougar who pursues Mat and makes him her plaything.  When he finally escapes from her it is only when she and Suroth leave to inspect Seanchan forces to the north.  Unless you want to propose the unreliable narrator again he is awfully keen on getting away from her.  The fact that he regards her fondly to some extent and is hit hard by her death is entirely realistic as intimacy leads to tangled emotions and leaves a mark on a person whether the relationship was healthy or entered into voluntarily.

5 hours ago, JyP said:

 

So yes, obviously we can see Tylin as a rapist because she forces herself on Mat, and we have no consent described in the book. Which can also means that Mat is as much a rapist than Tylin, what with all the girls he chased at home and since...

This is the one comment I strongly disagree with.  There is no indication that Mat has ever forced someone into a sexual encounter against their will.  His actions and thoughts on page, how his friends and acquaintances regard him all point the other way.  When he is rebuffed he moves on with a "there are plenty more fish in the sea" attitude.  He may talk of chasing girls but it's all about a drink, a dance and a kiss with a willing girl.  IIRC The only sexual liaison he has in the series before Tylin is with Melindhra, the Aiel maiden who approaches him. 

Tylin forcing Mat at knifepoint is where RJ abandons the intended humour and the point of his role reversal as it moves from what an unwanted pursuit or a hunter stalking a quarry looks and feels like to the other party (see how Perrin feels and how Berelain smells to him during her pursuit of him) to straight up forcing someone under duress.  There's no reason to tar Mat with the same brush and the burden of proof is quite the other way around.

5 hours ago, JyP said:

Having Tylin chasing and boxing Mat into a corner, menacing Mat with a dagger with no consent is definitely wrong. With today's sensibilities, this arc should be rewritten to take into account victim sensibilities, I concur. And I think having Tylin's POV would have sufficed to show disconnects between Mat's behavior and his inner thoughts.

All good points.  Given RJ was aiming for a humorous take on this to avoid it becoming too heavy or fraught he might decide to leave it alone now.  Mat can still try and protect Elayne and Nynaeve, still get trapped in Ebou Dar with a broken leg and still meet Tuon without the moral on good emotional and sexual behaviour.

Sorry this got so long ?

On 12/17/2021 at 9:07 AM, Sir_Charrid said:

I look at this situation as being a reflection of the real world. The continent Rand is on is the west, a collection of nations that disagree, fight but can come together for a common goal. the Seanchan is akin to the USSR. This becomes even more obvious after Rand fixes the borders and makes the Aiel the United Nations Army maintaining the peace. 
 

As with the real world the large Seanchan nation can’t be defeated via conflict, instead exposing it to the “west” its ideals and thoughts, will slowly decay the negative aspects of its civilization.

This nails it for me.  To continue the analogy a bit, The Shadow is Nazi Germany and must be defeated at all costs, even if the map of Randland/Europe must be carved up between the nations and the Seanchan, even if people made da'covale or women made damane must be abandoned to their fate.

We are meant to rebel at this notion but it's realistic, the cultures are too different and the power structure the Seanchan have developed rests too heavily on damane / da'covale for them to even consider change.  They are presented as good rulers who administer justice fairly and keep society functioning smoothly with everyone in their proper place: it's an authoritarian's dream state, everyone in their proper place and loyal to the regime.  As with any authoritarian state those who don't toe the line treatment is harsh, like the Seafolk breaking rocks in the Rahad for refusing the oaths or those made da'covale for whatever offence.  If you don't fall foul of the system, fall into one of the proscribed categories - oath breakers, marath'damane - or get caught up to no good by The Seekers/Listeners, the Empire's secret police, life is pretty safe and conditions stable.  Like I said, an authoritarian's dream state.

The problem with the Seanchan is that they consider themselves the rightful rulers of Randland, not  foreign conquerors, even though Hawkwing was himself a conqueror whose empire of short duration collapsed after his death well over a thousand years ago.  It's a preposterous ideology that they have constructed but it reinforces the absolute authority of the Empress over both continents and opens opportunities for personal advancement and gain to those from Seanchan, not least the sul'dam, but those at every level of society, including the droves of farmer-settlers Mat sees fanning out from Ebou Dar.  It's classic imperialism and colonisation but with the false argument that the legal right and moral high ground belongs with the invader.  Tuon considers every individual her subject and every ruler a usurper: all can be dispossessed, disinherited or made property with a simple pronouncement from her.

Why would they ever abandon this ideology and this system unless militarily defeated?  They gained Altara, Amadicia, Tarabon and half of Toman Head using an expeditionary force.  The Armies of Randland were pulverized during Tarmon Gai'don and The Ever Victorious Army was held in reserve until the coup de grace on The Field of Merrilor so is largely intact while they have garnered a large crop of damane from Aes Sedai, Aiel Wise Ones, Seafolk Windfinders and every village woman, merchant or little old lady who has a spark of The Power in her.  Aviendha saw in Rhuidean the future of the Aiel and Randland if they went toe to toe with this imperial juggernaut and wisely advocated for The Dragon's Peace.

It's a precarious peace with a bleak future outlined if it comes to conflict so is there any hope?  I can see why RJ may have planned a follow up with Mat and Tuon to (hopefully) flesh this out somewhat because the main series is all doom and gloom.  The Seanchan were only stopped by The Horn of Valere or Rand wielding callandor - and in both cases these were only setbacks.  The apparent chink in the Seanchan armour - the ability of sul'dam to learn to channel - is exposed as early as TGH but rather than using this to crack open the Seanchan self certainty and undermine their ideology and the power that the whole system rests on this is quietly run into the sand.  Tuon is in denial that her ability means that maybe she should regard her pet damane as kindred spirits or at least as human beings, the sul'dam and damane who escape Ebou Dar or are captured in the campaign Rand wages in the Venir mountains are not used to develop a plan or an argument against the system.

So we're left with the likelihood of a cold war in Randland, sul'dams poaching damane across the borders and claiming they strayed into Seanchan territory, and the hope that The Dragon's Peace holds long enough for the Seanchan to gradually come to see the marath'damane as something not as terrible as they have been led to believe.  Of course a few black ajah or a dreadlord or two could scupper that but it's a hope.  But what does that achieve in itself?  Realising that undermines their military effectiveness and seems a profound change that would shake their self confidence and their society significantly.  They have too vested an interest in avoiding this.  Just as they do in retaining da'covle and in keeping their claim over the entirety of Randland. 

Tuon's not one for letting go or acknowledging the truth about her self given the pariah status of channelers in the Empire so I don't see how this improves except over a very long stretch of time.  My feel on first reading was that the Seanchan were made too powerful militarily and this was exacerbated by their strong position after The Field of Merrilor.  After re-reading I feel the same.  They're entrenched and would hold the whip hand in any negotiations or military conflict.  Best case scenario is they need to spend a long time recovering Seanchan but if they do that aren't we back to where the imperial juggernaut started?  So I'm left hoping they reform themselves and change their beliefs and practices against all reasonable expectation that they would do so.   Really it's the start of The Cold War and there's no guarantee of the outcome.

I struggled with Sanderson's take on Mat.  Since FoH and forming The Band of The Red Hand Mat has grown up and accepted responsibility, even if he complains every step of the way.

The characterization just felt off in a lot of moments: e.g. too confrontational or dismissive to the Aes Sedai approaching Hinderstap, too crass in his letter to Elayne, etc.. and the attempt to turn him into a prankster seemed a mistake,  He has grown up but BS has him giving Joline sweetbuns laced with dye and pelting Perrin with pebbles before showing him he has caught a badger in a sack, the kind of frivolous and immature mischief he has grown out of.  Plus he seemed to decide to head to Ebou Dar because it was as far away as he could get from Rand.  I just can't make sense of him giving up his eye to rescue Moiraine and then practically abandoning The Band either.

I get that Mat needs to bring the Seanchan to The Last Battle and maybe this is how RJ intended it but the biggy for me is his identification with the Seanchan because he loves Tuon.  Really?  Mat, who blew the Horn of Valere at Falme to defeat the Seanchan is now one of them?  I mean, Knotai, The Prince of The Ravens, consort to The Empress Fortuona (may she live forever), and proud owner of a captive Sharan damane.  Mat's sister, Bode, is training to be Aes Sedai.  How exactly will she or Nynaeve react to this (provided Tuon doesn't whip an a'dam on them and break them first)?

I know Mat isn't big on thinking through the consequences of his actions but surely he has to think about this kind of thing occasionally?

On 2/8/2022 at 7:57 PM, Red Eagle said:

 

The problem with this, is it skips over a very important point. "What right did the WCs have to demand ANYTHING, of ANYONE, and what gave them the right to take anyone prisoner? (That's the most generous interpretation of the WCs intentions, had Perrin and Egwene immediately surrendered themselves.) 

< snip >

Finally, and this is just an opinion of mine. After all the fear, committed murders, and destruction Perrin's personally witnessed the Whitecloaks cause, the fact he keeps belaboring his guilt over killing two men who intended (at best) to turn him over to torturers on the basis of personal opinion, made this plot-point one of the weakest/most infuriating in the entire series for me.  The 11th hour attempt to rehabilitate the WCs by implausibly making Galad their leader also grated on me. It was like Sanderson (or RJ, if this was in his bequeathed notes) was simply whitewashing all the evils perpetrated by the WCs as a terrorist organization. 

 

I know this is a couple of months old but I've just finished a re-read and wanted to agree with these parts in particular.

The first part is the central problem with the Whitecloaks: they are a cross between the Spanish Inquisition and The Knights Templar who claim authority everywhere and over everyone.  If anyone objects, demurs or criticises them then clearly they don't walk in the light and can be arrested and tortured into confession of their sins unless enough force is around to deter the Whitecloaks. 

We understand that there is nothing that Perrin and Egwene can do from the moment the Whitecloaks approach their campsite.  Even if Perrin had not killed two of them any answers they could have given about their reason for being there would only have condemned themselves - as indeed the story they spin Geofram Bornhald does. The personal enmity of Dain Bornhald and Jaret Byar after Falme always seemed a bit contrived to me but it adds further fuel to the fire but the condemnation of Perrin (and Egwene) as Darkfriend(s) is set in stone.  We're meant to realise how terrifying this is and how difficult it is for Perrin to have an axe hanging over his head all the time.

For the second part I had an equally incredulous reaction to the notion of the trial.  I had considered the Whitecloak arc in Perrin's story closed with their expulsion from The Two Rivers in TSR. 

1) As The Whitecloaks had invaded The Two Rivers on Pedron Niall's orders, cordoned the region off with a blockade of the Taren, effectively instituted martial law in the region and kidnapped and held hostage the Luhhans and Cauthons there seemed no way Perrin or the Two Rivers folk would even entertain this for a moment. 

2) Indeed as  Whitecloaks under the command of Padan Fain as Ordeith had murdered Perrin's entire family it seemed far more reasonable to me that Bornhald as the Officer commanding the Whitecloak invasion (1) and with full knowledge of the murders would be trying to keep things quiet.  The fact that he wants justice for his father but denies his Order's responsibility for the murder of civilians in cold blood is hypocritically infuriating.

3) Galad is an absurd character in an absurd position.  He is a man whose step-mother and sister trained at Tar Valon, things that are considered crimes by The Whitecloaks, but in response to feeling his sister was used he joins an organisation that would, rather than use her, kill her!  As a member of the royal family of Andor and with a close personal attachment to his step-mother he nonetheless joins an organisation which every ruling family knows makes trouble for them and which nearly unseated Morgase a year ago!?  It's preposterous.  His reaction to learning that the Whitecloaks sent troops into The Two Rivers, an area claimed by Andor, is complete indifference rather than anger at the infringement of Andor's sovereignty.  Learning that his troops ignored Trollocs and left the farmers to fend for themselves he is swayed by two wide-eyed officers, one dumb, the other drunk, both with a grudge, into thinking that refusing to fight Trollocs while they attacked and killed villagers was the right thing because it must be a trap!

4) The Whitecloaks have been expelled from Amadicia but they have no problem with appropriating a baggage train and kidnapping it's complement of drivers and camp staff in Ghealdan.  This is a casus belli but the whole thing is portrayed as entirely reasonable military behaviour on The Whitecloaks part rather than in effect an invasion and seizure of Ghealdanin assets.

Everything about it annoys me, from the lame way Basel Gill and the supply carts are left to wander on alone for weeks after Malden instead of re-joining the main force so they become an obvious hostage group to the readiness with which Perrin agrees to be tried against everyone else's objections feels contrived.

The only things to be said for it are

1) It finally closes out The Perrin vs Bornhald/Byar sub-plot running since TEotW

2) Perrin does bring another group of soldiers into alliance for the larger battle of Tarmon Gai'don without bloodshed

3) Galad's arrival causes Morgase to reveal herself, finally tying off the end of her exile arc begun in TFoH (iirc)

4) It FINALLY allows Perrin to leave Ghealdan where he was sent at the middle / end of ACoS

5) Galad might still have a stick up his butt but he develops some glimpses of judgment and compromise rather than closed minded self-certainty

Of course it's the battle where Perrin saves The Whitecloaks from the Trolloc ambush that cements all these things rather than the trial itself but the trial resolves the legal Whitecloak case against Perrin so he gets some personal resolution from it.

The "What happens after?" is the big question for The Whitecloaks for me.  They may fight in The Last Battle but the order really needs to be disbanded.  Galad's musings that maybe the Children will set up in The Two Rivers are a pipe dream and nauseating to boot after how they behaved in TSR. No monarch will allow a military order with their own legal code and courts on their territory so unless they can bully their way in - which The Dragon's Peace makes extremely unlikely - they are done for.  Too much to hope for?

On 4/1/2022 at 9:20 PM, Andra said:

They way I understood Rand talking about "springing a trap" and "being the hunter" was primarily a general statement, given how much of the story prior to that involved him being trapped and hunted, and not in control of events.  Though some of it was obviously about the events in tSR.

 

The part that specifically relates to Lanfear and Asmodean was about taking what they offered, which he knew they intended to control him with, and cutting the leash.  Springing their trap then keeping what had been intended as bait.

 

Lanfear's plan (for which she roped in Asmodean) was to get Rand trained, then ally with him to overthrow the rest of the Forsaken.  Possibly to overthrow the Dark One himself.  But with herself holding the reins, of course.

What they are trying to achieve in entering the Waste as a peddler's caravan is to get close enough to him to accomplish this without raising too many suspicions.  And to cause whatever other mischief they could with the Shaido.  He recognizes what's going on, but doesn't blow the whistle because he wants to use them.

It's not certain that Asmodean knew specifically that the Access Keys were in Rhuidean, just that lots of potentially valuable objects of Power were there.  But he also recognized them for what they were as soon as he saw them.  He waited as long as he did to go for them because he was always a coward, and didn't know what kind of wards were on the city beyond those he already knew of from Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

Rand's trap of Asmodean comes by severing his connection to the Dark One.  It ensures Asmodean's loyalty by making it impossible for him to survive without Rand's protection, as weak as Lanfear has left him.

I read it as Lanfear intending to bring Asmodean to Rand so they could feel each other out and thrash out an agreement.  I agree on her ulterior motives and long term plans.  Quite why she thought she could steer Asmodean where she wanted I'm not sure but the story demands that Rand learn how to channel from a male channeler so the sub-plot goes ahead though there are some weak points to me.

Rand anticipates Lanfear and Asmodean though he incorrectly assumes Kadere rather than Natael to be Asmodean.  Because of this he is very non-committal with Natael on the assurances of pardon that Asmodean is looking for leading Asmodean to back off.  He finds from Mat that one of the access keys to the Choedan Kal is in Rhuidean and marks Couladin with the dragon tattoos as to distract Rand, going to get the key while Rand is busy at Al'cair Dal.  This is why I find Lanfear's plan doubtful as Asmodean is off plan very quickly.

I did wonder how Rand intended to trap Asmodean but the revelation that he understands from his duels with Ishamael that the Forsaken are connected to The Dark One and that the connection can be severed explains this.  Once the connection is severed Asmodean has no choice but to throw his lot in with Rand.

Of course like most of Rand's plan's it's a full of holes and needs Lanfear to step in and tell him what Asmodean is up to so he can counter it.

On 4/19/2022 at 3:30 PM, JyP said:

 

I feel like we are also supposed to know that Mat is clearly an unreliable narrator : what he says and what he does are not the same. With his skill with knives, who can think Tylin would be able to best him... or that a mere queen would be able to make a ta'veren a powerless prisoner.

I'm curious as to why you think we should clearly see him as an unreliable narrator. 

The knife scene is the culmination of Tylin's pursuit of Mat which he has tried to avoid at every turn. 

For example, he moves Olver into the anteroom to his chambers so Tylin, who has stolen or made a copy of the key to his room, will refrain from sneaking in on him when he's asleep.

Are you suggesting that Mat's an unreliable narrator so this didn't happen or that secretly Mat wanted Tylin to pursue and catch him?  You also seem to be saying Mat didn't do enough to struggle or fight back, which I think gets dangerously close to victim blaming.

The "you wanted it really" line is used to justify overcoming someone's refusals to participate and is really an attempt at self-justification. Tylin uses it as do those who extort from others what they don't give willingly.

On 3/18/2022 at 6:51 PM, Juan Farstrider said:

I like Perrin as a character, a lot. But he ends up in a holding pattern for a while, both in the world and the dream world, and on injured reserve when it all goes down. Why did Rand need Matt and Perrin? Resiliency? Back up?

Why does Rand need Mat and Perrin?  For two reasons, I think.

First, Rand's idea that as he is The Prophesied One who must do everything is soundly debunked in the series by the relentless pressure of events and by The Pattern itself, in that it thrown out three ta'veren for a reason.  Right from TEotW Min tells him of the viewing of darkness and motes of light that is greater when Rand is surrounded by most of the key characters (Rand, Perrin, Mat, Egwene, Nynaeve, Moiraine, Lan, Thom) so it's broader than the three ta'veren but they are key. 

In this sense they are pivotal in bringing armies to Tarmon Gai'don: Perrin in building the Ghealdan-Mayenne-Two Rivers-Whitecloak-Amadician/Altaran refugee army; and Mat, first, in enabling the Seanchan alliance by a pivotal role in Rand's second meeting with Tuon in Ebou Dar (and in defusing tensions in Tuon's later meeting with Egwene in Arafel), and, second, in deciding the war strategy after the betrayal of The Great Captains and leading the Armies of The Light on The Field of Merrilor.

Second, they both play a vital and unique role at Shayol Ghul in Tarmon Gai'don.  By unique I mean no one else could do these things. 

1) Perrin places the dreamspike to prevent Slayer shifting into the cavern and killing Rand and kills Slayer  himself by shifting into and out of Tel'aran'rhiod the way Slayer can to catch him.  Only Perrin can fight Slayer this way. 

2) Once Mat and Olver turn up and Olver blows the Horn of Valere, Perrin leads the spirit wolves out of The Wolf Dream to defeat the Darkhounds of The Wild Hunt.  Could someone else have done this?  I don't know, perhaps Elyas but they seem to be waiting for someone to lead them and asking Young Bull in The Wolf Dream to lead them in The Last Hunt.  As he can enter and exit The Wolf Dream in the flesh while Elyas cannot I think it has to be Perrin. 

3)  Perrin kills Lanfear right at the moment she expects him to help her kill Moiraine and Nynaeve, thus ensuring Rand's defeat.  Could someone else have escaped her compulsion to do this?  Possibly one of the three Wise One Dreamwalkers, Amys, Bair or Melaine or a Dreamer like Egwene but, given Perrin is the only one Lanfear would have chosen to work through, he is the only one who could possibly have broken free.  Any other man would have remained caught.

4) Mat kills Padan Fain / Mordeth / Shaisam in Thakan'dar.  Fain is some kind of next level monstrosity, with hundreds if not thousands of dead Trollocs as drones and anyone who comes into the mist that he generates dies.  He is determined to envelop Thakan'dar and kill Rand until Mat kills him.  Mat is immune to the mist, having been infected before by The Dagger of Shadar Logoth.  No one else could have done this.

I've just finished a series re-read so, while it's still fresh, I want to agree with a  lot of what has been said above.

Perrin is deliberately written as good-natured, gentle, loyal and dutiful but also as a slow, deliberate character, thoughtful, cautious: he seems like he would make the perfect family man.  Like all our heroes, he is pushed firmly out of his comfort zone by events - his sudden and confusing wolfbrother abilities, the feud with The Whitecloaks, the need to do the right thing to regain The Horn of Valere and help Rand in TGH / TDR, the confusing and overpowering nature of his feelings for his first (and only) love, Faile.

He weathers all this pretty well and his storyline in TSR when he becomes an effective leader in The Two Rivers is tub-thumping satisfying.  He galvanizes opposition to The Whitecloaks' bullying, frees the Luhans and Cauthons, and ultimately defeats Slayer (Isam/Luc) in Tel'aran'rhiod and leads the defeat of the Trolloc invasion, all while dealing with the personal tragedy, catastrophe really, of the death of every single member of his extended family.  Perrin has well and truly arrived, weathered his personal and identity crises and matured into a Leader.

Unfortunately Perrin then plateaus and even regresses.  Yes, he rescues Rand at Dumai's Wells but his chapters are mostly about Faile and his confusion about how to manage her temper and keep his marriage on an even keel given Berelain's behaviour and Faile's instinctive jealousy.  Realistic?  Yes.  Interesting?  Not for me.  It's like pulling teeth: when Perrin is sent on his long mission to greet Alliandre and Masema and gain their allegiance to Rand, Berelain is helpfully sent along to give Perrin and the reader a headache.

When we see him in these middle books his personal crisis is back, his confidence is shot by Faile's capture and his admission that he would give anything up to save her (let's not forget chopping the hand off the captured Shaido warrior and the threat to turn him into a quadriplegic), and he even seems to have rejected his contact with the wolves as if he fears turning into another Noam despite talking to wolves when he needs to, not least in following Rand towards Dumai's Wells.  Despite defeating Slayer in The Wolf Dream in TSR he appears as a complete novice there who Hopper has to teach from scratch.  And that's a big problem for me: it's as if TSR never happened and Perrin is thrown back to the start of his development arc.  A crisis is one thing but I feel like I've read all this before and the character is now going through it all again.  It's stale and repetitive for me.

When he finally weathers his second crisis, recovering Faile, accepting his duty as a Leader and Lord, acknowledging and accepting his wolfbrother identity, settling his feud with The Whitecloaks, breaking away from Berelain, he emerges at the end of the story as a more rounded satisfying character.  He does pin together the Ghealdan-Two Rivers-Whitecloak-Altaran/Amadician refugee alliance and bring a sizeable army to Tarmon Gai'don.  The army is delegated to Tam for The Last Battle while he and Gaul keep Slayer from killing Rand but it's creation is Perrin's achievement.

The final bit of his character rounding out is during The Last Battle, when he knows Faile is missing, he sticks to his duty of protecting Rand and ensuring the battle is won, rather than chasing off after her.  Of course he gets his reward when he finds her alive afterwards.

In short: early Perrin (1-4) is good, middle Perrin (6-11/12) is pretty close to unreadable, late Perrin (11/12-14) is satisfying.  I like the guy but the middle of the story does him no favours and his importance to the story overall is only really revealed in AMoL when he saves Rand by killing Slayer and leads the Spirit Wolves out of Tel'aran'rhiod into the real world to destroy the Darkhounds of The Wild Hunt at Shayol Ghul.  That moment, when he realises that not all the heroes of the horn have to be men and why the spirit wolves have been calling to Young Bull to lead them, is quite beautiful.