2 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Yes, it is well established that the Seanchan are really scummy and slavers. 

It's really well established that they are so potent and powerful military wise that it is unlikely anyone else can win against them in open conflict, which means diplomacy, politics and changing them from the inside are the approach.

It's also really well established that the last battle is going on with another army of potent channelers running around in full circles and devastating everyone along with the swarms of Shadowspawn.   

So... We have a scenario where there is a bad thing going on that can't really be dealt with without your full attention, but there's a LETHAL bad thing going on at the same time and you can't ignore it.
 

Again, we flat out KNOW Mat is against the damane and has taken actions to push back against it.

 

No, that is how you feel YOU would react in the scenario.  Not the same as how someone MUST act.  
 

Irony is dead.  It's rather sad that someone who claims to have gained maturity can't stand to see someone else hold a different opinion.  As you have become a considerable nuisance I am going to ignore you.

16 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

In the middle of a battle yes, you cut off the arm to save the body.

If you phrase it like that, then yes  🙂

But the Seanchan are not an unknown and how they treat channeleres is not an unknown.  The fact that they absorb every captive channeler into their army, break them and use them against their former friends and allies is well established.

I don't think it's unrealistic to expect to see Mat wrestle with this more.  I'm pretty sure he knocked her out and took her prisoner himself.

Do you give Perrin a pass for giving the Seanchan hundreds of Shaido Wise Ones because it helps secure his objective?  Apart from the human misery it will lead to it's a colossal strategic error and swing in the balance of power (already favouring the Seanchan).

16 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

"Why?"

"You will have sidestepped the thread of fate, left your fate to drift on the winds of time, and you will be killed by those who do not want that fate fulfilled."

When Mat demands to know his fate, the Aelfinn continue, "To marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons! To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was! To give up half the light of the world to save the world! Go to Rhuidean, son of battles! Go to Rhuidean, trickster! Go, gambler! Go!"

But this is just it.  He has to go to Rhuidean to avoid death.  Marrying the daughter of the Nine Moons is part of the thread of his fate but it is not established as a precondition for saving the world. 

If Mat truly believed it was he would be on the hunt for her from that moment on because if the world ends so does he.  Instead he warily starts asking women if the Daughter of The Nine Moons means anything to them before he gets involved with them as he does with Melindhra.  Mat being Mat he accidentally kidnaps Tuon in a typical out of the frying pan into the fire fashion as he finally escapes Tylin and the Seanchan only to find he's cornered himself.  As with all RJ's relationships he then falls in love with her in record time which makes it ok but it's classic "stuff happens to Mat" for comedy.

He thinks he has to marry Tuon because the Finns told him it was part of his fate not because he is hell bent on this as the only means of ensuring the world survives.  That bit comes when he joins Thom and Noal in rescuing Moiraine and is separate from his courtship of Tuon.

18 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Except none of that really ties to the point we're debating.  You argued that because Mat didn't drop everything he was doing to actively fight an enemy combatant being collared in the middle of Tarmon Gaidin he doesn't sufficiently care.

By that logic why didn't Egwene immediately go to War with Fortuona  when they met on the battlefield?  Egwene knows exactly what the terror is of the collars and has already bloodied the Seanchan once.  Clearly her willingness to work with Fortuona shows she doesn't have a proper level of concern over the Damane issue.

Which sounds ridiculous to say, which is right up there with ignoring everything Mat does showing he does care about the issue to argue that one moment in the thick of battle says something about him.

 

  

So an extra line right there would have made you happy while you ignore the multiple earlier lines in earlier books that much more clearly show his concern?  I'm confused.

So all the following meaning nothing:
-Freeing sisters from the A'dam
-Smuggling them out of Seanchan lands
-Taking the Sul'Dam who want to break the cycle to safety.
-Shielding them from the Seanchan when they catch up to Fortuona and making sure they come with him instead of going back collared like Fortuona would have wanted.
-Actively telling Seta and Bethamin to learn everthing they can about channeling and to help him make Tuon understand and change things.

But if he had had a momentary internal thought of "Wow, Bode will hate this."  It would have been all good for you?

To quote Batman of all things "It's not who you are on the inside, but what you do that defines you."  Mat internally is flippant, selfish, actively wants to avoid responsibility or danger.  Mat externally is a noble hero who rushes headlong into every problem and saves life after life while fighting for everyone else's freedom and safety.

Just stop.  I have no interest in your overly charged responses.  I don't know why this bothers you so much and I really don't care either.

On 2/18/2023 at 3:36 PM, KakitaOCU said:

She rubs wrong with Cadsuane for the same reasons you just got done saying you didn't like Cadsuane... 

They are both domineering characters who expect obedience.  I really don't know why you object to me pointing this out so much, I didn't write them but they are on page the way they are.

On 2/18/2023 at 3:36 PM, KakitaOCU said:

Alise she doesn't actually have problems with, she gets frustrated with her but you'll notice she never takes it out on her, never takes her to task, never tries to force her superiority with Alise.  She's confused by her but then takes it in stride after the flight from Ebou Dar.  Nothing in the book shows he fighting Alise.

I never said she fought Alise.  I said she couldn't handle not being the one in charge and that the chapters after they left Ebou Dar when Alise usurped what she saw as her rightful role in organising the party, leaving her flummoxed, were hilarious.

You seem to take criticism of Nynaeve personally.  I've said I'm generally well-disposed towards her but that I find her overbearing and not an easy person to be around.  You're welcome to interpret her differently but we won't agree.

On 2/18/2023 at 3:36 PM, KakitaOCU said:

Except they do, repeatedly.  And again, he didn't actively take a damane.  He ended their threat in combat and OTHERS did it on his behalf.  Which he is horrified by, but then, oh yeah, Trollocs everywhere, gotta focus.   Again, there are specific points to show he's not okay with or going to allow Damane to continue.

Others did it?  So someone else enslaved someone on his behalf and he's an accidental slaveowner who nonetheless  decides to benefit from owning a slave because it's convenient?  Not a strong argument in a court of law I think you'll find.

Now that's a bold contention.  I don't really see how you think he's going to liberate Seanchan's damane and get Tuon on board with it but I'm all ears.

On 2/18/2023 at 3:36 PM, KakitaOCU said:

He specifically says it to Seta and Bethamin when they leave his company with the Aes Sedai.

Does he?  I remember he gave Jolien sweet buns laced with blue dye as a prank (I think BS was off in his characterisation but it is how he wrote Mat).

On 2/18/2023 at 3:36 PM, KakitaOCU said:

I hate to say this, but I'm picking up on a pattern about how you view most of the women in authority here.

It's almost as if I responded in a light-hearted way to a comment saying that all the characters had matured and become likeable by pointing out what I see as flaws or aspects of immaturity in Mat, Perrin, Faile and Nynaeve.  Characters I took issue with, in however small a way, rather than those I didn't.

I have very little time for people who handle differences of opinion and interpretation with ad hominem accusations and insinuations of sexism or any other kind of bias.  The characters are written as they are and we should be free to discuss their characters without this kind of foolishness.

On 2/18/2023 at 3:36 PM, KakitaOCU said:

Again, we can already see her softening with Mat and just because early Tuon would act a certain way doesn't mean she will down the road as Mat works.

So you think Tuon will melt in Mat's embrace and be all for the emancipation of the damane kept in "kennels" and walked twice a day, given treats for being obedient and performing tricks for the sul'dam and literally regarded as less than human?

I think that's extremely unlikely.

Note that's because the Seanchan powerbase is based on damane so it would cripple the empire not because of "a pattern in how I view women in authority" 🤔

On 2/18/2023 at 3:36 PM, KakitaOCU said:

You're literally saying his lack of immediate action regarding an enemy combatant in the middle of the last battle somehow says he doesn't have enough concern for the whole issue.  That is woefully misunderstanding of him and the situation.

It's really not but I can accept you see it differently.  It's shame you can't but I gather you like to lecture.

On 2/19/2023 at 10:19 AM, Sir_Charrid said:

Have to agree with these points and just to reiterate anything that happens in the last 2 books, especially the last book, any choices that are made are done so based on the immediate situation right now and not any consideration for the future.
 

Mat is in the middle of overseeing the biggest battle in the history of the 3rd age,

 

Tuon needs to ensure her nation stays in one piece while they fight the biggest battle of the 3rd age. This is not the time to make dramatic changes of policy, The voices in mats head would tell him the life of 1 aes sedai in that moment is not worth risking the greater war on. 

This is valid to a point but it feels like you are saying the end justifies the means and that's a dangerous approach to take.  If one Sharan can be collared and made damane to fight The Shadow so can hundreds.  And so can hundreds of Shaido as Perrin does indeed sacrifice in order to free Faile.  Except those damane can now be pointed at anyone.  And even if they are not, they will still be treated as animals and have their personalities broken and be reshaped as obedient and merciless weapons.

My criticism is Mat does not wrestle with this or even think about it more.  A few lines of troubled conscience or imagining Bode's or Egwene's reaction are all that are needed to establish this moral dilemma, not a major plot arc.  Instead it's how useful and well-behaved she is.

On 2/18/2023 at 3:32 PM, Sir_Charrid said:

If you go back and re read the section where he is with the Finn he asks them what happens if he doesn’t follow the prophecy, and he is told that the pattern will kill him. He also connects really early on in the books to the idea that he is in some way tied to Rand and the last battle and accepts he needs to be there as the holder of the horn. 
 

It is not much to make that link that, even if he doesn’t say it, he understands if he does not marry the daughter of the nine moons he dies and therefore he won’t be there to play his part in the last battle with the horn. You can make any argument as to why he should not have married her, but if he doesn’t marry her he dies and the last battle is lost. That is stated in book 3 I think, maybe 4 by the Finn so RJ defines that rule

very early on. 

In Tear (TSR) he asks the Finns for answers.  They tell him to go to Rhuidean so he goes with Rand and afterwards he sticks with him as it's the best way of escaping The Aiel Waste.  He attempts to escape before the battle of Cairhien (TFoH) but The Pattern pulls him back and even after he kills Couladin he needs to be dragooned by Rand into going to Caemlyn (Egwene helps corner him).  Ironically, he's right to worry as he dies in Caemlyn but of course this is okay and in line with prophecy but even so...

Stuff happens to Mat, in fact it catches up with him despite him trying to avoid it and I don't think he has everything as neatly tied up at a strategic level as you say (marrying a sul'dam and owning an "Aes Sedai" is pretty much the opposite of what he would choose for himself).

Whether you want to see Mat as a deep thinker with a clear strategy or a more reactive character who stumbles out of the frying pan into the fire is up to you and is a matter of opinion.

21 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I will also add, Mat primarily married her so as not to die and ensure the last battle was won as per the prophecy he was told by the Finn. All other considerations where out of the window and he didn't really have the benefit of a measured choice of the pro's and cons. 

In all the Mat chapters after he meets Tuon and while he is courting her he never once thinks he has to do this to save the world.  The first Finn prophecy is "to marry the daughter of the nine moons" and he acts like his feet are set on this path without thinking of any of the consequences - as in when he earns the title Prince of Ravens he reacts with surprise as he realises he is now a Lord despite spending the entire series saying "I'm no bloody Lord". 

Technically he doesn't marry Tuon in any case, he blurts out some words in shock and then months later she marries him.  His courtship is not about him desperately hoping she'll accept so they can save the world together, just more stuff happens to Mat and he is in a fine pickle and has to ride with it.

He does think that, at least loosely, about rescuing Moiraine but that is connected to the third Finn prophecy "to give up the half the light of the world to save the world".  Does he know that Rand will fail without Moiraine?  I don't recall if her letter says so, only that only he with Thom and one other can rescue her and he understands that it is the right thing to do.

I like Mat but he is an accidental hero, who gives us a lot of comedy despite, in fact because of, his troubles.  Like all the Two Rivers folk he comes good and does his duty in the grand scheme of things but he's not a deep thinker (prosthetic battle tactics aside).

21 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Is it really? The only way he was going to get the information he needed, to not only rescue Faile but also deal with the Shado required him to take a hand. Thankfully a lot of Modern fantasy has realised that the idea of good guys only do good and bad guys only do bad has faded away. Good people can do bad things in the right circumstance and, the morals of the WOT are different to ours. One of the great things about fiction is that it gives the writer a chance to explore worlds with a different moral setting. Some of the actions of Morraine with the Black Ajah could be considered Torture, leaving them unable to speak or hear while held in a stress position the whole time they are not being questioned.

Yes.  When is he "worse" that this?

The end justifies the means is as old an argument as humanity.  There are lines that should not be crossed.  Perrin turning into a butcher to rescue Faile from captivity is not a plot line I would welcome or an argument I would support.  RJ played on it and then had Perrin back away from it.

I don't think he got any useful information from the captured Aiel?  Sulin and her scouts tracked them down.  I really don't think RJ's message here was that Perrin was right to do this.

21 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Again, her experience and path have put her in a position where she should NOT be deferring to these people. 

But this is the rub: Nynaeve does not think she should defer to anybody and specifically avoids Egwene once she is Amyrlin for this reason.

You're also mistaking my point about Nynaeve that it is her manner and attitude that I find unappealing.  No one ever said Cadsuane was not capable, smart or right about a lot of things but I absolutely do not find her likeable either.  If you do that's fine but we won't agree.

21 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

 I'm just talking about my need to continue to live and support my family, Nynaeve's stakes are the world's continued existence here.

In Caemlyn?  It's just her nature to be short and sharp with people.  I don't find it appealing as I'm more laid back.  Nynaeve in the office would be a nightmare as she would always expect to get her own way and think she knew better than anyone else - who would of course be a fool for disagreeing with her.

As I've said I'm generally well-disposed towards her because of her loyalty, courage and compassion but she is NOT an easy person to be around.

21 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

And from these experiences she learns and gets better.  No one said she's never problematic, only that it's a character arc she evolves from.   You mentioned Book 1 Nynaeve at one point.  I'd despise Book 1 Nynaeve, but would love and respect Book 6+ Nynaeve.

To an extent.  Cadsuane and Alise don't enter the story until books 7 and 8 and Nynaeve's interactions with them are not early series.

I think you're being protective as I'm criticising her flaws.  It's important to recognise she has them, rather than denying them.  You can still like her despite them.  I don't dislike her, I just find her personality makes for a bumpy ride.

21 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

He is, in the middle, of the Last Battle.   He doesn't have the time or luxury to stop and consider the moral and ethical problems this rises

But that's Mat ALWAYS - put off thinking about the consequences of his actions.  I don't think any of Rand, Nynaeve, Egwene or his sister would give him a pass for being preoccupied.

21 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

But we DO have how he acts overall, which is to save Aes Sdai from damane colllars and then encourage Sul'Dam to LEARN to channel to help him fix the empire.
 

Yes, it is clearly on his mind.  When he sees the fear in Jolene's eyes over the presence of a Seanchan accent.  When he frees Teslyn, when he puts his neck on the line far beyond his own needs to get those three sisters out of Ebou Dar.  When he regrets killing Renna.  When he tells Seta and Bethamin to learn to channel and help him save the empire from itself.  

I understand that my random habit of just remembering everything is weird, but maybe double check what people say if you think it sounds off.  Yes, the sisters agree because of that reason, to start.  Teslyn is already changing her way of thinking by the time she parts with Mat and Mat SPECIFICALLY says to Seta and Bethamin  to learn as much as they can so they can to help him sway Tuon and stop the Damane process.  He wants things to change.

Again, he explicitly shares this to Seta and Bethamin.

First, the fact that he understands the trauma of being damane and how that petrifies the Aes Sedai he freed should make him all the more thoughtful about the Sharan woman he captures, instead of basically thinking that as she's happy to be treated like a dog there's no problem.

Second, I genuinely don't remember any encouragement by Mat to the sul'dam to learn to channel to reform the Empire from within.  Maybe it's there and I glossed over it but I reread the series last year and that's not something I remember. 

And if you think Tuon is a lady for turning I have to disagree.  Axe meet head seems far more likely for Mat than liberating Seanchan's damane.

21 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

  Beyond that, if you HONESTLY think he doesn't see the issue with his wife wanting to collar his sister you're woefully misunderstanding Mat as a character from the get go.  

I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt so I'll say I don't really know what you are saying here and why you used a capitalised honestly for emphasis but I've never said he doesn't have an issue with Tuon collaring people left, right and centre - only that by capturing and using a damane himself he isn't thinking about how his friends and family will react and interpret his actions. A shrug, a rueful grin and an excuse that he had a lot on his plate won't wash here.

And I don't think I misunderstand his character at all, thank you for sharing your opinion to that effect.

21 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

I thought so too when I read it as a 15-20 year old "boy" trying to fit exactly how a man was supposed to be.  Reading it as a 30 something woman and rereading it now at 40+?...  Not so much, it just reads as a combination of youthful stupidity and grave misunderstandings of what the requirements should be for masculinity and femininity. 

Well, we all have our own perspective regardless of age and circumstance.  If you can evaluate your own changing perspective and gain differing insights into the characters and their behaviour that's all to the good. 

I still don't warm to Faile and find (as Elayas did) quiet, introspective Perrin marrying a hot-tempered, jealous character to be hideously ill-suited and their relationship to be hard going.  Not saying this isn't realistic - it happens - but I don't enjoy reading it.

20 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

One, I think you're missing a key point, because Nynaeve admits the system is flawed and defers to a Sister so weak she barely made the Shawl.  There's a difference between using what you have and thinking it's the right way to leave things.

I have to admit I remember her bossing all the sisters around in Caemlyn and I don't remember her  deferring to any weaker sisters.  I also remember how Egwene had to trick her into acknowledging that she owed obedience to Egwene as The Amyrlin Seat and that acceptance was given grudgingly. 

Nynaeve thinks the system is flawed because she doesn't want to defer to anyone (Ajah Heads, Sitters, The Amyrlin Seat) and always thinks she is right.  And she hates disagreement or opposition.  We see that very clearly when she used her authority as Wisdom at Emond's Field to bully or beat people who disagreed with her over the head with her club.

You' free to spend as much imaginary time with her as you want but I'll pass 😄

20 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

But beyond all that, what, exactly, is the issue with someone giving orders and expecting to be obeyed?  If the orders are bad, question, but realistically, these are intelligent, highly trained and competent people.

As long as you recognise that Nynaeve expects to be the one giving the orders and can't handle it when she isn't.  The chapters after leaving Ebou Dar when Alise Tenjile organises The Kin / red belts from The Farm, usurping what Nynaeve sees as her rightful role and leaving her flummoxed, are hilarious.  And her interactions with Cadsuane are telling as, despite her superior strength in the power, she realises she has come up against a similar character who won't bend to anyone else.

20 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Except he doesn't actively go purchase a damane, he captures an enemy channeler in the middle the last battle.  We have no idea how he'll react to this or what steps he'll take next and we KNOW the idea is on his mind because he encourages the Sul'Dam that were with him to learn to channel and help him convince Tuon to change things.    

He knocks her out in battle rather than killing her, sure (part of RJ's Two Rivers gallantry where killing a woman is unthinkable however many of your men she torches).  But my criticism is that he doesn't think anything of what it means to become a slave owner or how any of his friends, family and associates would react to this.  As a reader we know what Egwene experienced in TGH and how the Aes Sedai were broken in Ebou Dar, losing their personalities if they weren't rescued in time, something Mat himself knows.

Is it on his mind?  I don't remember him having anything to do with the captive sul'dam or the Aes Sedai unless he had to.  Any more than he has anything to do with his captive damane or thinks about her as a person.  Learning how to keep away from Aes Sedai was of course why he stepped through the ter'angreal in Tear and, Mat being Mat, and RJ being RJ, is why he ends up married to a sul'dam and owning a damane. 

The Aes Sedai with Mat intend to teach the sul'dam how to channel only because one of the sul'dam manages to grasp the source and does something that hurts everyone nearby so, like with any other untrained woman, they plan to teach her enough not to hurt herself or others around them.  The plan to train sul'dam and use them against the Seanchan is Egwene's with the captive sul'dam and damane that Rand sent her after his campaign agaisnt the Seanchan in TPoD and this plot line fritters out.  Mat does not encourage this and would have no influence with the Aes Sedai to interfere in this way  in any case.

20 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Two aspects.  One, love is funny and you can't always control who you love.  Two, there is a very strong argument to make about changing things from the inside.  We know attacking the Seanchan from the outside is bloody, dangerous and might fail.  But Mat slowly influencing Tuon, applying his own political leverage and ability to start moving the needle?  These are things that come with maturity.  It's easy to stand and say "Be defiant no matter what."  It's a harder thing in reality and practice.  A young person would dash themselves on the rocks of the Seanchan empire trying to force the issue.  A smarter person realizes if they're in control they can effect change.

Well of course you don't choose who you love but a marriage needs a stable foundation and common interests not just affection.  A normal marriage at any rate.  A political marriage on the other hands needs a purpose and there is none here.  It's why Tuon jokes with Mat that as she is pregnant she doesn't need him any more.  It's all RJ's humour with Mat getting out of the frying pan only to head straight into the fire but Mat doesn't love Tuon at first, he just rather dementedly decides that as she is The Daughter of The Nine Moons he has to marry her because the snakes said so and so courts her without thinking of any of the implications.  This isn't big picture strategic stuff, it's purely what this means for him 🤨.

But if you think Mat has some plan to work on Tuon and reform the Seanchan from the inside then I admire your optimism but think it's wishful thinking.  He became Prince of Ravens same way he became General of The Band of The Red Hand - entirely accidentally when he was looking for a way out.

I'll throw a bone in and say that, although Rand confirmed that he is no longer ta'veren and suspected that Mat and Perrin were not either, The Pattern still has a role for Mat and will make him ta'veren to continue blundering his way across Randland and Seanchan, inadvertently changing the fate of The Seanchan Empire in the process.  Maybe this was the follow-up RJ had in mind in which case it might have been a pretty funny read.

I like Mat, but he's not a deep thinker.

20 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

It's not an immature young person thing, it's a vulnerability and humans are flawed thing.

I can agree with that and it's why hostage situations are dealt with by people who are not emotionally involved.  But Perrin and Faile's relationship still reads like pulling teeth.

20 hours ago, Samt said:

I actually didn't have a problem with Perrin chopping the hand off.  It showed his intelligence at understanding their culture.  They didn't mind the pain.  It was the prospect of being sent back as beggars that got to them.  He's horrified at what he has done, but also accepts that he will do what he has to do. 

Genuinely didn't expect to hear that.  Torture is not something we tolerate today and even in fantasy / fiction it's not something typically ascribed to the good guys.  It's him on the edge of losing it and embracing the end justifies the means.  Once you abandon any barriers or moral constraints things get real ugly real fast.  The Aiel are shocked by what he does.

This is Perrin at his worst.

19 hours ago, Samt said:

I liked Perrin the whole way through and once Faile got past her jealousy I thought she was great as well

Did she?  Perrin never looked at Berelain twice and she made Perrin's life hell because Berelain was trying to make her uncomfortable, not because Perrin did anything.  The Berelain issue was "fixed" but Min and Loial's judgments on Faile's character remain true for me.  Now she's Queen of Saldaea she's going to be even more difficult to live with.

19 hours ago, Samt said:

Not sure what there is to dislike about Nynaeve once she understands her block. gets beyond her hypocrisy, and works things out with Lan.

Have a look at how she interacts with the other Aes Sedai in Caemlyn once her status as a real Aes Sedai is beyond question.  Aes Sedai follow a hierarchy of power and she's top dog and is as domineering as ever. 

I'm genuinely well-disposed towards Nynaeve but I would not want to spend time around her because she has a temper and an expectation that she would give orders and they would be obeyed.  Ditto Faile.

19 hours ago, Samt said:

Mat you can definitely say has some maturity issues, but I still think he is very likable.  I also think that Mat's inner dialogue is actually fairly sarcastic.

Undoubtedly but owning a damane while your sister trains to be Aes Sedai is about as thoughtless as it can get.  And marrying the Seanchan Empress when she sees everyone as traitors owing her obedience and has already conquered a third of Randland, only being restrained by a precarious truce, kind of avoids looking at the big picture.  But, hey, his child will be the next Seanchan Empress.  I shouldn't blame him for the pickle RJ put him in as that is a central part of his character and his story arc but I do find it absurd that he doesn't think about any of this.

19 hours ago, Samt said:

And I'm 15 years happily married in my late 30s with 3 kids.  So it's not really a middle aged thing.    Maybe I never moved beyond the obsessive teen romance phase, but it hasn't been a problem yet.  

Well, I'm happy for you and your family 🙂 but if you have three kids I doubt we're talking about the same thing.  I'm talking about when Perrin cuts the hand of the Shaido captive in order to force him to say where Faile is and thinks (rather tediously and repetitively) "only Faile matters", "the world could burn as long as Faile was safe". 

I liked Perrin but I didn't like the Perrin-Faile relationship.  Love doesn't always make you happy and the risk throughout was that Perrin and Faile made each other miserable more often than happy.

But of course we'll all view characters differently.

23 hours ago, Samt said:

I think an important key to enjoying the books is realizing that you aren't supposed to necessarily like all of the main characters at the beginning.  By the end, they all grow into someone very likable.  And after 14 books, that growth can be very satisfying.  

All of them? 😮

They certainly mature somewhat but they are still very young in adult terms, only around 19-21 and there is plenty of rounding of rough edges tom be achieved and emotional maturity to be gained - Mat in particular, but Nynaeve also, and Perrin and Faile need to move beyond the obsessive teen romance phase.

Spot the middle aged commentator 😄

20 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Essentially it does force a super level of trust because suddenly there really are no secrets, causes immense stress, takes forever for people to come to terms with it, and results in having both sides die if one does since if you think just taking the Warder's death in is hard, imagine doing it while having their every thought too.

Yikes, strong argument against 😮

In fairness, the Androl - Pevara bond seems to require them to try hard to clarify their thoughts and project them to the other who otherwise just has a fuzzy impression.  So this is more telepathic communication than involuntarily mind-reading but it's still problematic.

Imagine if you don't like your other half's cooking / new outfit / middle-aged spread / receding hairline?  Keeping your thoughts to yourself is the answer but what if you can't? 💣

5 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

The biggest issue for me is that these relationship changes happen over about 18 months. I sometimes wish the story had a much longer time scale to really make sense of the behavior which doesn’t come across as friends drifting apart, but just teenagers being constantly bratty. 

Agreed but then the whole timeline of the story, with Rand going from barely out of adolescence shepherd to ruling a coalition of nations, leading multiple campaigns and saving the world, is very short so things happen at breakneck speed: the Aiel, the Seanchan, The Forsaken, the Asha'man, Tarmon Gai'don. 

Boom, it's all over in 2 years so our characters have rapid development and accelerated arcs from humble beginnings to international statehood (it's weird saying that given how slow paced some of the catch-ups chapters and plot arcs are - Mat in Ebou Dar, Perrin in Ghealdan, Egwene leading The Salidar Aes Sedai to Tar Valon) but they all grow up, get married and become world leaders in an eyeblink.  So their growth apart is accelerated as well for all the teenage bickering, glaring, sniffing and braid pulling that accompanies it.

5 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Babylon 5 covered this idea in the final episode of the final season. Humanity in earth has regressed back to a pre technology stage because of warfare. Meanwhile humanity in the stars has evolved to beings of pure energy that exist much like the vorlons did. 

The Planet of The Apes and Battlestar Galactica too (the 2000s remake).  But these are post-apocalyptic visions of one possible future not an endless cycle repeating cycle (though BS comes close with Earth, Kobol and The Twelve Colonies all suffering the same fate). 

Assuming it's always a disaster that leads to regression is the species equivalent of Humanity being Sisyphus endlessly pushing the boulder up the hill only to have it roll back to the bottom.  RJ's analogy and inspiration from Oriental mysticism is poetic and engaging but it's best not to look too closely at "the return to innocence" unless you posit a peaceful possibility - at least some of the time.

6 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

I think everyone is failing to take into account one guns and mass production will do for the Seanchan.   Seanchan have cannon.  It's clear in the Bad for Aiel future that Tuon is killed early on, probably Mat too.  Which means whoever takes over has Cannon without any ties to the rest of the world.

I thought it took several generations for the drift to War in Aviendha's visions.  My impression was that Tuon and Mat and all the others like Perrin had died naturally.  Curiously Elayne is absent though she should live to 300 or 400 but I think it's principally because she would not have let herself be manipulated into the Aiel strikes that she is airbrushed out for her descendants.  Either that or a much longer span of time has passed.

It's very possible that the Fourth Age will see industrial / early modern warfare.  But then again with The Dragon's Peace being the equivalent of The League of Nations / UN but with an effective enforcement arm in The Aiel it very well might not degenerate into mass warfare.

The possibility that technology replaces magic is very real once it starts to be researched and rolled out.  It doesn't have to end with everyone wearing a collar and serving a global authoritarian empire.  It's very much an open future not a predetermined one.

6 minutes ago, Vartija said:

Agree with this. I was always a bit let down by the reunion scenes in the books. On re-reads it's a bit jarring and sad at times to realize how much the characters grow apart from each other. And how much they bicker and argue among themselves when they are together. For supposed best friends type of relationship their interactions with each other are at times really cold and uncaring. 

I think this was RJ's take on growing up and the strains it puts on childhood bonds when all of a sudden you have very different views or interests and can't just shake hands or make up after an argument. 

Seeing Nynaeve and Egwene battle each other for dominance as Egwene grew out of her role as Nynaeve's apprentice is one example.  Seeing Faile encourage Perrin to consider his own interests and try to turn him into a Lord rather than just someone who has a duty to help Rand is another.  Or Mat's rather cold and self-interested determination to avoid Rand once he knows Rand can channel and will therefore go mad is unappealing but is understandable in terms of self-preservation.  And once he marries Tuon his position is even more conflicted - he even ends up potentially fathering the heir to the Seanchan Empire and owning a damane despite his own sister training to be Aes Sedai....

Childhood friends often retain close bonds but equally life often takes them in different directions and the bond withers.  It's sad and I agree, I found their inability to trust each other and work together and their constant bickering to be frustrating, but I'm not sure it's off the mark, maybe just a bit exaggerated. 

21 hours ago, ToEleven said:

Ok, so in reading through this thread am I to assume that all of the Aes Sedai, Wise Ones and Ashaman will be killed or enslaved by the Seanchan after the ending of this series?? What a horrible ending to the heroes Journey.

Not sure if you're still reading but Aviendha was steered by Nakomi to think about the Aiel's future.  The visions she had in Rhuidean are a nightmare but she also saw how that unfolded so knows to guard against it.  And she does share that with the other Wise Ones so it's more like "there is no fate but what we make" and there is a particular outcome the Aiel are forewarned of and determined to prevent.

15 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

 

Finally the thing to consider, by the end of the 7th age humanity has to have undergone such a cataclysm that they are effectively back in the Stone Age,
 

The aes sedai of the books will fall and die, the Aiel will fail, the Seanchan will fall. Even the Finn will be forgotten and lose all contact to the world, until they are rediscovered (if they ever are). Maybe the world has a few hundred years of peace, but that will be broken. 

Or they evolve into something else.  The problem with time as a circle is that you have to return to the state of innocence.  Obviously we experience time linearly so we have no benchmark for this and a cataclysm seems the only way to achieve that but the idea that humanity repeatedly destroys itself and rises from the ashes only to doom itself again in an eternal cycle is just too bleak and pessimistic to contemplate so is wisely left off page.  

Enough time has to pass for things to be forgotten but we don't know how or why.

Yes, the bond has always been between a woman who could channel and a man who could not.  Alanna bonding Rand meant he could ignore the bond when she tried to compel him but he never bonded her in return.

The Pevara - Androl bond was reciprocal and had unintended consequences.  Whether it's unique or not is unclear (Androl's ability with gateways despite his low strength in the power being unique - and theoretically impossible) but Cadsuane's group bonded other Asha'man in Cairhien, Pevara's group numbered 50, all of whom were bonded by Asha'man and then Rand allowed Egwene to send 50 Aes Sedai to bond Asha'man in "compensation".  It's quite possible one of these 100+ bondings was also reciprocal but BS makes it a new discovery and explores it through Androl and Pevara.

There's also the question of Rand's multiple bondings with Elayne and Aviendha (in addition to Alanna) but I forget how that bonding worked.  There's certainly no mind reading between them.

Mind-reading is too intrusive so I'm glad this has not been established as a rule or inevitable consequence of channelers boding each other.

On 1/30/2023 at 11:49 AM, Sir_Charrid said:

Oh I don’t think he will actively seek out adventure, but, in a world such as Randland I think on traveling around adventure will find him. 

A Jain Farstrider by accident?  "Why does it always happen to me?!" 😄

His last pov reveals he is no longer ta'veren and he is incognito.  I think he can avoid adventure if he chooses to.

14 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Rand is no more controlled by the pattern then anyone else, he made decisions and was never “forced” he did what he felt he needed to do but nothing would have stopped him going and doing something very different. Egwene saw the outcome of some of those different choices early on, but he could have changed his own destiny at any point including the end. 

But ta'veren are chosen out by The Wheel to correct The Pattern or to form a particular weaving of it.  It's not accidental that three ta'veren arise in The Two Rivers all about the same age.  What is interesting is that while Rand was being born on Dragonmount (only being brought to The Two Rivers later) Perrin and Mat are being born hundreds of miles away.  At what point were they marked out as ta'veren?  When Rand arrived, beforehand or after?

As for The Pattern and control, consider Mat.  Nynaeve and Elayne quite deliberately produce him in the negotiation with The Seafolk to force them into a bargain they would not otherwise make (quite manipulatively without telling him what they were after but that's another gripe 🤨) so The Pattern forces or affects others through ta'veren.  We know this of course, it's the key feature and purpose of ta'veren.  But look at Mat at the battle of Cairhien: every attempt he makes to flee drives him deeper and deeper into the battle until he kills Couladin and so The Band of The Red Hand is born despite his every attempt to get away from fighting and Forsaken.  It seems The Pattern has had a purpose for him, maybe since birth (or before) and he can't escape it.

Fate and Free Will are of course the dominant themes in the series but with The Dark One defeated all of Perrin, Mat and Rand are "released" by The Pattern and are no longer ta'veren and can choose their course without being nudged or pulled here or there.

Well, Perrin is married to Faile and Mat to Tuon so there's that.....

9 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Rand never knew who Jain really was, and he loved the book. I think he might sit on a farm for a short while, but he is what 20 years old, the rest of his life ahead of him, there won’t be any settling down any time soon, or he will sit on a farm for a year or so and then go wandering. 

Well he is about 20 so there is plenty of time to work out what he wants and live whatever life he chooses.  All of the Two Rivers youths have outgrown their village but I don't think Rand is going to seek out adventure.  I can see him travelling to see the world (as he thinks to himself) but not to seek out "storybook adventures".  He may not know the truth of Jain's regrets but he has regrets of his own and his perspective on The Voyages of Sinbad type of experience is probably very different now to when he was a wide-eyed child wondering what lay beyond Emond's Field.

9 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Is he free from the pattern? Or does he simply continue to shape the pattern around him, only now he consciously controls that rather then simply random events happening. I don’t see this being the end of Rands adventures, despite everything I don’t think he will ever be happy settled on a sheep farm. He is far more likely to become the new Jain Farstrider. 

Interesting comparison.  Jain appears to be the swashbuckling hero of a hundred tales but when we meet him later we learn that was the folly? / adventure of youth and that he bitterly regrets leaving his wife who died in his absence on said adventures.  Plus he was worn down by them and also something of a dupe of Ishamael who allowed him to seek refuge in an ogier stedding to plant the first rumour about The Eye of The World (still not sure how that happened).

I think Rand has had enough adventure for one lifetime and has his fair share of regrets already (his own and Lews Therin's).  Maybe a gentleman farmer patronising local arts, crafts and schools would be more up his alley now.

18 hours ago, Samt said:

In regards to the pipe, I'm also not sure how it's relevant.  I hesitate to use this analogy since it will certainly have a bunch of baggage, but my reading is that the pipe is showing that post Tarmon Gaidon Rand is sort of Tom Bombadil (Not in aesthetics or mannerisms or general attitude to the people around him, but just in role).  He's super powerful, but also no longer the one who is supposed to be in the center of the action making sure things happen the right way.  He is practically omnipotent, but he is using that power to light his pipe because he can't find a match.

 

Rand always wanted to settle down on a farm somewhere and raise a family.  He has the thought that Alivia has given him enough gold to buy a farm.  I have assumed that was a plan, not an idle comparison.  He'll go buy a farm.  Eventually Min will join him. Although she still has the ability to see viewings, they will live in some boring place where hardly anybody ever has something floating over his or her head (and certainly Rand never does).  Maybe Aviendha and Elayne will visit often, although they both have duties elsewhere.  And they'll raise a family and grow old.  Rand has unspeakable power, but is content to smoke his pipe and raise his sheep.  I'm not sure if his loss of ability to channel means that he will only have a normal lifespan or if he still lives 800 years.  

Well I think that's what the pipe shows in the context of Rand musing over what to do with his regained freedom.  The course of his life is now as free from The Pattern as anyone else so, who knows, maybe he'll meet someone else 🙂

But I thought that @Blackbyrd was arguing that the pipe shows Rand's effective power in the context of maintaining The Dragon's Peace so that we have entered a new utopia with the divisions in the world fading away because Rand is omnipotent.  Subtext being The Rhuidean visions show that an agent of destruction must be at work to upend this system, ie. Lanfear.  I'm not sure how that works with Rand's apparent omnipotence but it's difficult to speculate on what someone else meant.

4 hours ago, Blackbyrd said:

 

Alot of this conversation revolves around the fact that Sanderson revealed he, along with the team developed the Nakomi character- and the subsequent Rhuidean visions. So...

 

edit: also revealed- Nakomi isn't a note, moreso an interpretation by Sanderson; I won't reiterate all that's been said

The convo is mostly about Lanfear's survival.  I guess I think differently enough that I don't follow your reasoning unless you spell it out for me.  So I think you're saying BS wrote Aviendha's Rhuidean visions so you feel there is a clue in them about Lanfear's survival, the clue really being that things turn to sh*t and therefore a puppet master must be directing or nudging events?

I don't get the Rand pipe comment or how it relates so I won't speculate.

3 hours ago, Blackbyrd said:

1- The first paragraph is very easy, and if anything it is defied by the lighting of pipe at the end of it.

I'm not sure I follow.  How does Rand lighting his pipe with willpower connect to human nature being quarrelsome?

22 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

One slight thing I am still not 100% how much of the "vision of the future" was RJ planned work, it is in one of the BS books and I don't know if it has been confirmed if he lifted it from RJ's notes or came up with the idea himself in order to ensure the dragons peace would be enacted with the Aiel. 

Then there are the non Darkfriend threats to peace. The Whitecloaks are not going to suddenly become nice and peaceful overnight, there are centuries of indoctrination to undo, there will be factions within who like the power of being able to draw a dragons fang and burn a witch. 

There will be factions and issues continuing in Tar Valon, but also the Black Tower trying to find it's own place, I can see the potential of a cold war of sorts between both towers as the Ashaman find there position of influence in the world and various leaders and rulers decide to have a black tower advisor rather then a white tower one.

I thought Aviendha's descendant visions were as moving and as sweeping in scope as Rand's ancestor visions and the voice and content felt like RJ to me.  If BS wrote or developed this from RJ's notes it's an area where he hits the right notes for me.

As for the rest, indeed.  The potential for strife and rivalry in a large complex world is vast and renders it almost inevitable. 

The Whitecloaks were rather unsatisfactorily turned into part of the coalition for me - it seems more likely, Galad, step-son of a witch, half-brother to another witch and friend and protector of other witches would have been executed or thrown out once his political value vanished.  Nonetheless we're presented with them as a contained force by the end of the series, rather like the hordes of Masema's followers and legions of Shaido (hundreds of thousands of them) are written off or quietly dropped.  Without a political base the Whitecloaks only number a few thousand so are pretty easy meat for either the Seanchan or Randland coalition (or Aiel) if they break the peace.

The Black Tower very definitely needs regulation.  I like how this was left open but the dangers are obvious and the solution likely to take time and negotiation.  One interesting point is how the Aiel will evolve presuming they don't return to The Waste and allow men who can channel to be part of their society.  They could hunt rogue channelers as much as the Red Ajah did.

22 hours ago, Blackbyrd said:

Previously I mentioned that Aviendha's vision comes off as out of step, almost forced, given the stability that should come from the Dragon's Peace and with Mat and Perrin both surviving as just leaders

Ah, I see.  I thought you were identifying a hidden Lanfear at work in one of the visions.

I think RJ was simply showing us that  victory over The Shadow does not lead to a paradise or utopia as human nature has not changed (my comparison is to post-WWII Europe with the Seanchan and Randland as the USSR / Western Allies eyeing each other with suspicion and hostility due to incompatible systems of thought and government).

But as @Sabio says the future Aviendha saw was a result of the Aiel starting a losing struggle with the Seanchan out of warlike pride and the visions confirm that Tuon and her descendants kept to the truce until the Aiel broke it.  This is very human and although new crises will emerge the Aiel being bound to The Dragon's Peace seems to neutralise this one. 

No need for Lanfear (or The Dark One) for humans to fight each other in other words ☹️