54 minutes ago, EmreY said:

Am I correct in understanding no second series until the very end of 2022?

That's how I read it.

The debate is going back and forth about WoT being Amazon's answer to GoT (potentially).  What does that actually mean though?  Are people looking for another "medieval" fantasy show or something a bit different that captures the imagination of people? 

I suspect Amazon were looking for a highly visible series with high merchandising potential and I think this is something WoT could (have) become.

In my mind, WoT had the potential to become just that, highly visible.  People deciding what 'their' ajah is, in the same way they align themselves to a Hogwarts house, or deciding that they identified more with the idea of being a wolfbrother or an Asha'man which then plays into the merchandising. Wondering whether the White Cloaks are a force for good or bad.  

One of the earliest moments in the show that hooked me in to GoT was Tyrion slapping Joffrey, they did well establishing him as a villain in waiting and kept him visible throughout his character arc.  It was very clear that this was a moment that both characters would hold onto and when the power dynamic changed there would be a pay off for it.  It was a moment that had people talking, the same with the sex and nudity.  I personally thought they went too far with some of the sex scenes, but they had people talking.

Let's have a conversation about the moments in early WoT that could have been used to hook people in and create that same vibe.  For me, in EoTW, it was the attack on EF being limited to the 3 Taveren boys homes, the villagers turning on Moiraine and Lan.  The looming threat of Perrin and the wolves, did that mean he was the DR or was it something that was inherently evil?  Nynaeve's hostility to Moiraine, I could go on.  

For most of the non-readers I know, episode 9 of GoT cemented their attachment to the show.  Ned's execution was masterfully set up and done, suddenly the tables had absolutely been flipped on expectations.  This wasn't a cliffhanger, I guess the only thing that comes close in WoT is Moiraine having potentially been cut off from the power.  Ned's execution was a massive exclamation point in bold using a font 5 times bigger than anything else used so far in the show, we got to see the fall out in the following episode, which in turn lead to deeper implications.  Reading the books for me in EoTW the closest moment to this in terms of impact was Thom vs the fade or much later on, Rand in a box and Siuan being deposed in the White Tower.

What do you think?  Would GoT have been successful without all the sex and violence?  -which was in the book and was in some cases toned down for TV.  Was GoT just the right thing at the right time, done the right way or is its' success something that could be replicated elsewhere.  Was it the sense of peril coming from moments like the red wedding/Neds execution/Oberyn's death that kept people coming back for more.  In which case, could Wheel of Time ever be expected to keep up with that level? 

Let's try and keep this discussion away from 'I liked the show'/'I hated it'.  Put simply, do you think Wheel of Time has the potential to steal the Iron Throne or are people comparing apples and oranges when suggesting they might compete for viewership.

Hellooooo!

4 hours ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

This list needs A Pattern of Shadow and Light by Melissa McPhail added to it.

Yes, x 1000. Highly underrated in my opinion.

1 hour ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Again those choices where made in order to make a TV show that works, he hasn't thought. "I know I am going to do this thing to piss people off"

Whoever picked up this show as showrunner would have needed to make the exact same decisions, and, whichever way they had gone would have seriously upset Some people. Even if Amazon gave unlimited time and money you would still not be able to make a page for page adaption, because it would make for some truly awfully dull TV at times. 

You Don't like the choices he made, that is entirely fair, what isn't fair is anyone trying to claim he is doing it because he thinks he is better then RJ, or to sabotage the story. He is a show runner and writer, he is trying to make a show that appeals to the masses and will do that over 8 seasons. That is a very different skill set to actually writing a novel. 

I think Rafe has very little experience in writing/showrunning and comes up short.  It's clear that he disregarded a lot of advice given to him -which is his prerogative, but he will have to deal with the fallout.  I don't think he has come up with a TV show that works, what he produced was a hot mess of set pieces, not a coherent story.  He over-reached!  

A lot of people are defending the show saying 'Watch and Find Out'; that doesn't cut it in the fickle world of TV.  If you're an author with a guaranteed book deal and a massive readership, you can do that, it's enticing I love plots that span multiple books.  If you're a novice show runner, you have to get good results from the get-go otherwise you get cancelled no matter how much a select bunch of people like your work.

Season one had one job, to set the foundation for telling the story, and introduce the characters/world.  Most of the non readers I've talked to were pretty scathing about the show and gave up.  They struggled to put names to the 3 boys from the 2 rivers for example.  Amazon won't tell us the break down of their viewership but they know.  If it's a dozen or so people rewatching the show because they really liked it or if they are getting a high count of unique users will have an impact on the future of the show.  -I watched it twice through, in the hope I would find some sort of hope for season 2. 

I don't think Rafe set out to sabotage anything, I just don't think he has the experience to do the job.  Maybe he will grow into it, but given that season 2 was already filming (I believe) when season 1 was released, I don't think he has the opportunity to pick up the feedback and make adjustments.

Ooh I likey

1 minute ago, SingleMort said:

I guess. TBH I'm still pretty sure the season is going to be a mashup of books 2 and 3. I mean with Rand doing his solo wandering you can't really do that again next season so at the very least that will be from book 3 unless he just teleports to Falme (I hope that doesn't happen because it's so far away) 

It's OK, I have a plan -take notes showrunners.  We could get Mat to nick Moiraines sexy time picture for him and use it to transport himself to a far off location.  

20 hours ago, MashiraSedai said:

I find myself in meetings reminding myself to accept them with 'Aes Sedai calm and serenity' ?

Whilst internally 'chewing rocks and spitting out nails?'

2 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Season one was a coming of age story for a group of 20 somethings?

 

I realise it's splitting hairs, but I think of EoTW as more a loss of innocence than coming of age.  Moving from a simple fairly conservative village into the wide world.  Of course, we didn't really get that either from the series.

11 minutes ago, Deviations said:

It was a weak solution.  Actors abound.  They could have plugged and played pretty easily.  How many did they interview initially?  One of those could have stepped into the breach.

Not defending it, I'm pointing out that it was not a decision made by the writing team to have Mat not go through the waygate. 

48 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

We don't yet know why Mat left, for starters.

Mat left because the actor left.  They will eventually contrive a reason for him not going through the gateway but this was not a decision taken by the writers, it is a patch up job to temporarily fix a difficult situation.

39 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

What training do they need? They already surpass every Aes Sedai…Oh unless they are the ones doing the training! 
 

Truth is they will likely cut the whole training part aside from a token scene or three.

Wait, what?  But, but but what about all the spanking scenes and the foreshadowing for Egwene and Silviana?  They can't just cut those...

3 hours ago, Linnile said:

I guess it depends on the kind of dungeons. Maybe if I gain some xp, I could level up my skills...?

I would like to know what sort of loot the bosses drop.

From now on, I'm going to view Teams meetings as RPG dungeon runs, guessing what stats everyone has.  I'm pretty sure one of my colleagues has -20 charisma.

19 minutes ago, Pukel-man said:

I've watched the show exactly once, so I haven't spent serious study on this. But what you write a above, I don't recall any of it from the show. Are you adding your own inferences or interpretation? I'm only talking about the direct actions and words from the screen.

This is based on comments made by Rafe about Mat, nothing explicit in the show.  Moiraine made a comments about darkness within him.

54 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

I do agree that they spread themselves too thin as well. If the mystery of the Dragon was supposed to be the driving force of the season, imo we should have had 1) more dreams with the DO in order to build that suspense as the DO doesn't know which of them it is, which also builds the danger of the DO and 2) more prophecies about the Dragon in order to feed into the mystery and who could fulfill the prophecies. I think the reveal of Rand didn't work particularly well for example because they showed us the Blood Snow (cool scene for book lovers), but non-book readers had literally no idea why a baby being born on the slopes of Dragonmount mattered. In fact, correct me if I'm wrong, but was there any indication in the show that the Dragon had to be born outside the Two Rivers? Why does that matter, in the show? 

 

There was no mention of the Dragon being born outside of the Two Rivers, I don't think it really matters for the show.  Though I liked the Blood Snow scene, it's another thing they could have made more of.  If, for example they had dropped the 'many headed dragon' line in favour of a reminder that he had been born in sight of Dragon Mount the scene would have had more impact.  The first part you would know it was the DR about to be born and the scene when Roose Bolton Tam takes off his helmet would have been a stronger moment.

I liked what they did with episode 4 -with the exception of Nynaeve's mass ress.  It felt like this was a moment when things got to breathe, that is something that was sorely needed. I believe that someone with more experience would have recognised that they were doing themselves dirty when they tried to cram so much in the first season.  

13 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

Could you ? answer all of those by the end of EOTW?

 

In show only teams...

1 The Dark One is the one who sends Trollocs and Fades to kill and eat every person in the world, who is bound but trying to enter the world. E1+E6

 

2 Men go mad because the dark one corrupted the male part of the one Power. E1+E8

 

3 The One Power is A power inside you that makes the world listen to you and do as you want E2

 

4 Ta'veran are Focal points of the pattern E8

 

5 She needed to find him To bind the Dark One so he doesn't break out E1, E6, E8

 

6 Perrin being followed by wolves is still a mystery for his character at the end of S1 and it is supposed to be.

I disagree with you.  You're bringing too much book knowledge in.

1. Is answered in the book prologue as is #2.   In the show, he's just some guy who sends Trollocs and Fades -which can be wiped out by the 100 with a couple of linked channelers.  The WT is full of channelers, they should not be the threat they are meant to be. 

2. Episode 1 says 'men make the power icky', not the other way round.  The only reference to Saidin is in the Old tongue cold open for episode 8, which is translated to 'your power'.  The two halves of the power have not been established as distinctly different.  This is covered repeatedly in book 1.

3. Wrong! The power is something external to be channeled, not something inside of you.  The ability to channel is something that *some* people have. There have been no mentions of the different elements and weaving together.  There is also no definition to the limits.  All of which are covered in depth in the book.

4. A fairly insufficient explanation as we don't really know what the pattern is.  Again, covered in the books.

5. Why do we care about the dark one breaking out, hell why is he 'bound' anyway.  Who bound him. See my answer to #1.

6. Shouldn't be a WAFO, looks like a GoT rip off.  The books, yep it's clear.

I'm happy that you're enjoying the show.  I hoped that I would.  But at least be honest about the poor job they have done communicating.  With TV series, you are not guaranteed to get everything you are promised at the outset, things get cancelled all the time; even things that appear to be popular.  The showrunners have taken their eyes off the ball with this, and I suspect this will be the downfall for the project.  In trying to be clever, they have alienated a lot of the fans and done a poor job of communicating what is special about WoT over generic fantasy show #56.

1 minute ago, Raal Gurniss said:

I think Rafe just wanted to put his mark on the show and put a bit too much of his views into the show.

Spot on and that is a marked difference between an Apprentice and a Master.  An apprentice focuses on making something their own, whereas the master knows if the tool doesn't do the job it was supposed to then it's not fit for purpose.

Based solely on season one -not the bonus material can you

-Explain who the Dark One is and why he is a threat.

-Explain why men go mad when they channel but women don't.

-Explain what the One power is and what it's limitations are.

-Explain what a Taver'en is or why they are different to normal people.

-Explain why Moiraine needed to find the Dragon Reborn.

-Explain why the wolves are following Perrin around.

And there are a lot of other questions, that I could through up.  The answer to at least the first 3 should NOT be WAFO.

10 hours ago, Jake Sykwalker said:

 

I too am puzzled on where the supposed money went.  It didn't get spent on writers, special effects, or editing.  There is nothing in this show that jumps out and screams "I had a huge budget."  If it wasn't reported as around 10 Million an episode I would have honestly thought they did the whole show on a shoe string budget.  

7 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

True.  But if a screenwriter/script doctor says "this and this and this is a sign of really good screenwriting" and someone else (not a screenwriter) says "the writing sucks and a ten year old could do better", I'm thinking the screenwriter does have something worth listening to.  You are free to agree or disagree, but the screenwriter has a valid pertenant expertise.

Let me give you a bench mark -that doesn't involve someone else' opinion.  If the screen writers fail to communicate something; whether it be character development or world building or the nature of the magic system, then the writing is bad.  You can put as many pretty scenes in something as you like (like yeeting Egwene off a cliff) and call it symbolism or something but if the audience doesn't widely understand what you are driving at then you have ultimately failed.  The writers for WoT have overall failed to communicate a vast array of things to the non book reader audience.

They have introduced a lot of things in season 1 but not followed through on them.  The story as it stands is a hot mess of half done storylines which were not developed.  That is the problem with pulling too much from later books and spreading things too thin.  I keep coming back to the wolves, right now we don't know who they are, what they want; it just looks like GoT had wolves we have wolves.  A little more time to develop them and the introduction of Elyas would have cemented 'this is not a GoT copy'.  They messed up on that because tried to cram too much into season one instead of developing the heart of the series, which is the characters.

Now, if you are Brandon Sanderson writing another SA book, you can afford to put things in there that stick out as odd, because he has the good will of his audience, they know his work and trust him to use it later on.  The Showrunners of the WoT do not have that trust, their job first and foremost should be hooking in an audience and getting them to want to watch 8 seasons of it.  Sadly, we will not have the data to show how many abandoned the show and how many views are multiple rewatches.

If you like the show, that's fine -I'm not criticising that.  My opinion -borne out by some experience is they got more wrong than they did right.  The whole thing looks like an apprentice trying to emulate the masters experience.  That leans in my thoughts about the budget, I don't believe the spent it wisely.  Sony/Amazon backed the wrong horse, enthusiasm is a poor substitute for experience.

... and avoid dungeons, they sound scary

Hoping to move this year, but beyond that find some stability in this crazy world.

To: Malkieri Whatsapp group

Hi Guys, this is Ninsy M.  Let's go boys!  My man is doing his thing.

9 hours ago, MashiraSedai said:

? I see you spending a lot more time on DM this year. I also feel like there may be some pink in your future ?

 

My turn,my turn! 

I sense the next year will last 12 months and will be made up of week-days and weekends.  There will be many beautiful sunrises in your future and for some reason, I keep seeing the colour red.

3 hours ago, ArrylT said:

 

*shrugs*  That is akin to all the people who dislike the show putting all the blame on Rafe.  We all know the show has hundreds of employees, and yet time and time all the fault is given to Rafe.  And just like Rafe, Moiraine has a higher boss to answer to.

 

Nope, buck stops with Rafe. That's the role of the showrunner.  

My (probably) unpopular take on this is;

If you cannot do a battle scene and absolutely sell it, you need to work around it and do it off camera, showing the aftermath or select parts.  

The episode 4 battle scene in the woods looks poor because it looks empty.  This is where experience comes in and talking to experts. 

Early on there is a scene with Karene healing Moiraine where Moiraine mentions she has held off armies in the past.  You then have what 7 Aes Sedai fighting off about 30 soldiers -I can't be bothered to rewatch episode 5 to count the bodies it certainly wasn't a force that should have overwhelmed them.  People pick up on these things, especially when you are telling them the Green Ajah and their warders are something special.