9 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

This is actually how I watch most shows. Valda is a really good example of this. I felt his introduction in the show was really well done, he is creepy, sinister and importantly, he's dangerous. To me, that scene set him up as someone to be feared, that channeling does not make you invincible. And so when he meets Moiraine et al on the road, there is a tension to that scene for me because we have already seen what he will do to an Aes Sedai. A big complaint about that meeting is "why didn't Valda just ask straight out if she is Aes Sedai", but I am not really interested in that because the scene works for me regardless as he is being so creepy and sinister. I said it at the time, I think it's in the Whitecloaks thread, but quite simply sometimes the narrative demands something happens. It then comes down to the execution of a scene and that may differ for different people. 

 

I usually find I only start nitpicking at internal logic within a show or book if something more fundamental isn't working for me i.e the characters as a whole. 

Exactly this.

Just yesterday I showed the first three episodes of the show to a friend of mine who has never read the books. After watching the first episode he was loosely intrigued, not fully sold yet, but it was this scene with Moiraine and the Whitecloaks that sold him on the show. After it was over he said to me, "I'm excited. This show has depth and I'm loving it." He never wondered why Valda didn't test her oaths, he was simply interested in the Whitecloaks and how sinister Valda is, and the added danger that they represent. It's not just Trollocs and Fades they have to deal with.

I also loved it as a book reader. I was never really questioning how Valda was able to capture so many Aes Sedai, or why he didn't ask Moiraine if she was an Aes Sedai, I was just loving the atrocious vibes that Valda brought to the screen.

1 hour ago, AdamA said:

Maybe I'm underthinking it, but I saw the gold fringe on her ear and thought "cool, more jewelry," like if a person from an alternate universe was able to look in on our world and see some people wearing gold grills over their teeth.

That's likely all it is lol. I think we're the ones overthinking, but it's fun to speculate if there's meaning behind some of these things!

15 minutes ago, Andra said:

Who knows - pure speculation, but could it have something to do with their Warder bond?  Maybe Moiraine taking it off is how Moiraine masked the bond? 

That's an interesting idea! I don't know if it's present on other Aes Sedai such as Alanna, but if it is that might be what it is.

I saw some people saying it could've been a way for Moiraine to show respect towards Kerene after her death, but I'm not sure.

On 1/19/2022 at 12:42 PM, Andra said:

2: The gold plating on her ear(s?).  I only noticed it on her right ear, but she could have it on both.  Odd, to say the least.

On 1/20/2022 at 8:24 AM, Elgee said:

I'm reasonably sure I saw at least 1 other Aes Sedai with that? Or is old age befuddling my memory?

Kerene also had a similar ear piece but it was on her lower earlobe, whereas Moiraine's was more around the back.

7 minutes ago, Humbugged2 said:

The cast are all Equity (all the Brits/Irish or Kiwis) or FIA (all Euros ) except Madalaine and Zoe who are MEAA .

 

the rate is £100 a day

That is interesting if it's that low. I would expect at least 3 times that, but I guess European unions requiring a lower minimum makes sense. The only rates I could find was for MEAA which seemed to be around £100 minimum like you said.

But then Daniel Henney would be part of SAG-AFTRA, and so would have to be paid minimum nearly 5 times that. I can't help but wonder if everyone else, except Rosamund, is paid a fraction of what Daniel Henney would have to be paid lol.

It's fun to speculate about these things, I don't expect they'll ever release what they were actually paid.

14 minutes ago, Humbugged2 said:

They will be paid under European labor standard .

 

And the belief that there is no Euro unions and they woul be paid in $$$$ is sheer arrogance

 

All the cast of Brits/Euros / Down Under

I wasn't trying to present an argument lol. I was providing information about rates within the US Acting Union to get a reasonable assumption of what the cast is likely paid, not to prove a point.

Many of the cast are a part of SAG-AFTRA so I thought presenting the information of how much their rates can lead to an idea of how much actors in television typically make, I know European unions exist but I don't know enough about them or where to find the information on rates. I did try to find information there, but it mostly seems to be private and not located in a public document.

I don't think it's arrogance to assume that the rates are similar in other parts of the world, perhaps smaller but I think it's fair to judge it as a baseline.

40 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

In another age? Yes. During this age? No.

It removes the issue of the conflict with the Dragon and the WT.

It removes rhe issue of the Dragon going nuts and breaking the world.

It removes the issue of the Dragon being untrained. 

It removes a large part of the unification of ghe world (AS can just trot out their fully trained female Dragon and bring them to all the kings and queens theu spend time advising and poof, unification).

I agree that in this age any dragon besides Rand would not work. I think the idea is interesting, but definitely not what I wanted to see in the TV Show.

But I do not think it entirely removes the conflict. Yes, the fact that the Dragon Reborn will be a man who can channel and is destined to go insane in terrifying in the world, but a large part of where the fear of the dragon comes from is the prophecies themselves.

The prophecies tell of someone who will destroy the world while saving it. They are an allegory for change, and that creates fear. The fear can still remain within the common people, the prophecies do tell that they will destroy the world whether they are man or woman.

And unification of the world will still be an issue even if they are female, it is not that simple and the books clearly show this. There is general distrust of the Aes Sedai, and an Aes Sedai who is also the Dragon Reborn? No way that every ruler in the world is going to just trust them.

40 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

How? We literally watched them pull some child level politics.

Mom yelling at kid 1.

Kid 1: but kid 2 did this.

Mom swaps to kid 2 and actually falls for it.

 

If that's good politics to you...

I think it had a bit more depth than that, but oh well Aes Sedai politics kinda got like that in the books too. It's just a plotline brought forward and gives further insight into the white tower. The scene with Logain in the tower hall, though? I really enjoyed that.

On 12/2/2021 at 8:25 AM, DojoToad said:

I have no idea what they get paid, or what a fair rate is considered.  Do you?

I am not sure of the specifics for the shows casting, and it is hard to find certain sources online, but I can say that many of of the lead actors and likely many of the supporting characters were casted under the SAG-AFTRA union, a US based actor/screenwriting guild.

For a season of 8 episodes 1 hour in length a lead role would have a pay rate of $4410-5735 per week of filming which includes health and pension. This pay rate assumed the actor appears in at least half of the episodes in the season based on a 13 episode season with the pay rate rising the less episodes you are in. I am not sure how this applies to an 8 episode season, but I assume the rates are similar.

If the performer was only in a single episode the pay rate would be $1,056 a day, $2,674 for three days, or $3,664 for a week.

Background actors are paid $182-192, likely a daily rate.

This is all slightly off topic of the thread, but in general the pay for your actors is quite high and a pretty massive portion of the seasons budget likely goes there.

Unfortunately, the later battles we got this season were all likely affected by Covid. They required all actors to isolate for 2-3 weeks prior to shooting, and at a rate of $182 that is not worth it. So the amount of extras was reduced to 0 for Tarwin's Gap, and the Logain battle likely had a similar issue.

3 hours ago, Deviations said:

If they kill her off, how do the three girls go to Tear hunting the black ajah?

The girls get sent on the black ajah hunt before Siuan is deposed. If Siuan were to die, it would likely be when she is deposed.

7 minutes ago, Truthteller said:

I agree that those are all four story reasons, and yet each of those events make the story worse.  Moreover, these story changes are themselves driven by non-story reasons.

 

1 and 3 are similar reasons , driven by the decision to make a big part of the story arc about who is the dragon and to bring equity to the mystery (a women could be the dragon too).

 

2 is driven by the desire to accelerate the character arcs, which undermines the development of those same characters.

 

4 is driven by the decision to focus on aes Sedai politics.  Why you would want to do that is anybody’s guess?

 

So yes, driven by the story they wanted to tell, but this is a very different and , in my opinion, much worse story, itself driven, not simply in my opinion, by factors themselves extraneous to the story.

I do not believe these story points are wholly influenced by factors outside of the story they want to tell. Yes, a female dragon is an outside of the story factor, but it is not necessarily a worse story for it. The idea of a female dragon is an interesting one.

The relationship arc of Lan and Nynaeve is not extraneous to the story. Yes it is sped up, but this is likely not because of some outside factor and is simply the story they wanted to tell. Whether you enjoy it or not is up to personal opinion.

Aes Sedai politics being brought forward more is simply because one of the core things people enjoyed about the series as a whole was the political intrigue within it. Bringing the politics in earlier is a choice to make this political intrigue theming a bit more consistent and prevalent throughout the entire story. I personally enjoyed the politics we saw, and it does set up many story lines further down the line.

Not all of these changes are because of some reasoning outside of the story, and in some cases where it is it's because of an attempt to make certain plotlines consistent throughout the entire series. That does not necessarily make the story worse.

Rafe said during the AMA that we won't be getting a "Judkins Cut" of the show, since most of it didn't make it out of the script. But he did say at some point that he will be releasing deleted scenes and such over the course of the year, so there could maybe be some fan edits or the like coming out of that.

1 hour ago, DreadParrot said:

The deeper into madness a man falls the more powerful becomes. Attempting to shield any man causes the taint to siphon into you, causing women to become corrupted as well if they attempt to shield. Once learned all combat is essence a fight to the death because attempting to take them alive simply creates more problems.

This one is actually super interesting. I'm curious how the story would go if this were the case. I'd read that.

8 hours ago, Siraci said:

Personally i wish everyone would sign this :

https://chng.it/95X54w5PxN

 

They've ruined too many plot points the only way to save the show is to backtrack and fix everything. 

 

Just my opinion but I see it's half the people think they've done major damage to the plotline.  Would have been so easy to copy and paste the script and plotlines in my opinion. 

I don't think this petition will go anywhere. Change petitions never really do anything, it's just an easy way to get people riled up.

4 hours ago, Gothic Flame said:

The sky over Falme should be lit up! It was an important moment in the books...which typically seems to mean "not happening."

 

I would love to have the battle in the sky over Falme, but I have no idea how they would do it on TV without it looking cheap or weird.

39 minutes ago, DreadParrot said:

Let’s say this was strictly meant to get people curious and ask what just happened. How will this fit into the story once we do know? Cause I can’t conceive of a singular scenario where do we get more information and them attacked a nearly empty beach enriches the story. They could have completely plagiarized the fleet of ships from Moana landing and it would have made people talk. Also would have made no sense. Had they wiped out a village, washed it away from the face of the earth and planted a flag…that is something you can work with. This was completely pointless. Imagine the writers room…

 

writer: so we have brainstormed some ideas on setting up the Seanchan and decided we need to highlight just how formidable and dangerous they are. Any ideas?
 

writer 2: maybe show a ship being boarded and have an Aes Sedai on board who gets collared to foreshadow the damane and they pan back to show a massive fleet with hundreds of captive channelers propelling the ships with the one power?
 

writer 3: or we show a fleet approaching the incoming force and then a tidal wave wipes out the defending fleet, the seanchan never even break formation and we see them sail directly through the scant debris without slowing…

 

writer 4: we could just have them attack an empty beach with the tidal wave, but put a little girl on the beach so there is a witness. 
 

writer 2: how does that help the story…

 

writer 4: it will make people talk! 
 

director: well I’m sold. 
 

I hope someone can change my mind here, cause as it stands this KILLED show for me. 

I think it's an overreaction to say a single scene at the end of the season is enough to kill the show for you. It wasn't that bad of a scene, I liked it well enough.

The point of the scene was to showcase a strange new culture approaching from the west. Their entire look was intimidating, they had people on board being completely dehumanized and looking devoid of emotion (That one Damane girl on the left looked completely broken inside.) And then the scene of a tidal wave, with a shot of a little girl standing in front of it, was extremely intimidating.

I agree a village on the shore or seeing it from the perspective of some ship captain would have been a lot better, the scene is definitely not perfect, but as it is the scene serves the purpose of showcasing an intimidating army approaching from the west.

1 minute ago, Guire said:

The Ishameal character introduced in Eg and Nyn's dreams early instead of jump scare Ish would have made question of Dragon more interesting and may have allowed more male character development while still keeping mystery.  Ish and Nyn in dreams would have been sweet.  

Oh yes. I wanted crazy Ba'alzamon so bad during the dream sequences. I wanted him to speak with them, taunt them a bit.

8 minutes ago, SingleMort said:

Well it appeared to me like her eyes were burnt out of their sockets which implies even worse internal injuries I just don't see how that wouldn't be fatal. If it had been me I would have maybe suggested having Amalisa take her own life to break the connection or have one of the women kill her (which is probably not very keeping with either of their characters). In any case I think Nyneave and Ewgene are very OP for where they are right now in the story. 

Yeah the visual should have been far turned down as well. The whole Nynaeve death fake out is just a mess. It's my only major complaint of the episode and my least favorite part of it.

I was fully expecting Nynaeve to grab a rock and chuck it at Amalisa ?

I think the power levels for Nynaeve and Egwene is fine. The only slight nitpick would be Egwene healing Nynaeve there, but that entire part of the scene is a mess. I would absolutely agree with them being OP if they were the ones channeling, but they were linked to a tower trained accepted so I think it lines up pretty well with book power levels.

1 hour ago, Sabio said:

I was thinking that, what exactly did Rand save?  Had he not ventured to the Eye what would have been different?  Ishy would still have been free, the DO would have been no closer to being free, Trollocs still would have attacked.  In the end, his going to the Eye really didn't accomplish anything.  All it did was give Moiraine a stilling story arc which according to Rafe was to give Lan and her a dramatic soul searching story arc for next season.  Where they examine their relationship with one another.  As much as I liked the Ishy trying to tempt Rand at the Eye, I really didn't see what it accomplished.

It seems that Ishy tricked Rand into breaking one of the seals on the Dark One's prison, which is an interesting plot point that I like. This finale shapes up to be a big loss for our characters.

21 minutes ago, SingleMort said:

What I don't get with the VFX is that they were able to make the battle with Logain and his followers look pretty decent in epsiode 4 even the trolloc attack in episode 1 (aside from the other issues I have with that episode) looked way better than the action in episode 8. Maybe the drop in quality is due to covid but then I can't see any reason why they couldn't just delay the release a little longer to finish the effects. Amazon could have released the show any time they liked. That being said I could move past the thing with the horn, the VFX and the stilling but the healing from death is a real pain point for me. Even the most powerful character in the books couldn't do it and it's supposed to be a really really bad thing to do yet Egwene can do it with no training at all? Egwene and Nyneave spent far longer in the books to learn less significant abilities (eg: dreaming and healing stilling). At this point it almost seems a waste of time to train them as Aes Sedai seeing as they are already more powerful than any Aes Sedai. 

I do think a lot of the VFX issues were COVID related. They likely had a time limit on release that was strictly pushed by Amazon which led to some half baked visuals in episode 8. The Trollocs in episode 1 and 2 looked amazing, but I guess they couldn't shove a hundred people in some suits and throw them so close to each other during covid so they had to CGI the entire army. At least the initial lightning explosion from Amalisa looked sick as hell.

I don't think it was meant to be healing from death, but it certainly looked that way. I believe one of the BTS videos described burning out on a scale of 1 to 10, where 5 is being burnt out. Amalisa and the other girls hit a 10, Nynaeve hit a 5. Nynaeve was meant to be hanging on barely, but they did not make that clear at all.

That finale was a bit weak, my least favorite episode of the season so far, but I didn't hate it and I definitely didn't hate the show either.

Overall, the season is about a 7 or 8 out of 10 for me. Quite enjoyable, with many issues that I think they can improve on or were COVID related. The direction the show seems to be heading in is promising and watching the show gave me a similar feeling to reading Wheel of Time for the first time. Though it was quite different I felt it held the themes of the books pretty well, but the tone is definitely shifted from book 1 to more around book 6 levels from the very beginning. Not sure how that will pan out. I enjoyed many aspects of the show, episode 4 and 7 were really good in my opinion. Many of the characters have some differences, but they still feel like the characters I read in the books. Even if Lan is more emotional and Moiraine doesn't feel as mystical as she does in the first book, I still loved it.

I have issues with VFX, some can be excused due to COVID but man they really needed to make that Trolloc army in episode 8 look a lot better. Some of the writing was a bit odd, the pacing especially was all over the place at times. I wish they didn't have so many fake out deaths in the finale. I get wanting to make that final battle seem dangerous, but making it seem like many main characters (and even some secondary ones!) died and then come back is really cheap and actually lowers the stakes instead of raising them. The whole Nynaeve looking dead and then being healed was so bad. I'm pretty sure the intention there was to make Nynaeve barely alive instead of dead, but please make that clear through gasping for air or fluttering her eyes or something.

Most of my issues come from episode 8, to be honest. Otherwise I really enjoyed the season and am excited for season 2. I can only hope they get some much needed character development and give them all a chance to breathe then, especially now that most of the foundational lore is out of the way. The show has promise, and is just on the cusp of being really great or even amazing. Looking forward to season 2!

Overall - 7 or 8/10

Finale - 5 or 6/10

5 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Yep 

  Hide contents

LTT, Latra Posae, and I assume Lord Yakota is Seanchean

 

 

I love watching Daniel Greene, The Dusty Wheel, and Nae'blis. I almost always share the exact same opinions as Nae'blis as well, which makes it fun to see that reflected.

3 hours ago, Yojimbo said:

Exactly?   There is too much.  I sum up.  (also, when I talk for very long I tend to ramble, and go off on tangents, and have to sometimes be prodded to get to the frelling point.  Keep this in mind while you read this).

 

I started by explaining to her that there was no mystery at all to who the dragon was (I knew Rand was going to be the protagonist the moment he showed up), because the DR was almost never mentioned.   The mystery was why the DO had any interest in the EF's at all.  

 

I explained that they spent large parts of the book doubting Moiraine was either telling them the truth or had their best interests at heart.  That they eventually came to agree that there had to be something to it, since they all had things happen to them (like the dreams and getting chased by darkfriends and Trollocs and Fades, and Mat speaking in a dead tongue out of nowhere) that gave her explanation more weight, which eventually led them to accept that it was their duty to the world to go to the Eye.  Even Nynaeve, who spends most of the book distrusting Moraine and trying to get them all away from her.  This is what she specifically thought was more compelling.    The mystery of who the dragon is seems very contrived to her, as she figured out it would be Rand very quickly (she's way smarter than me, and has read every Sherlock Holmes story a dozen times).

 

I told her that the EF's were all (except Nyn) basically kids, with almost no understanding of the wider world, but as we got to know them we saw that there was hidden depths to them.  How Egwene, though the youngest by two or three years was probably the bravest of them all.    Even Mat, who might complain about it, but almost always comes through for the people he loves.   I explained how and why Rand's sword was so important to him, and why that sword kept getting him in trouble.   I told her more about Shader Logoth and what mashadar was and what it was doing to Mat.   I told her about Min, and her viewings.    I told her about Elyas Machera and what he meant to Perrin, and how the Whitecloaks came to hate Perrin, and what they actually were in that world.  I told her about Thom, and how he became almost a father figure to Rand.   I told her how Loial was considered to be too young at 90 years old to be out of the sledding, but had an enormous breadth of knowledge that was absolutely necessary to them, and how even he could see the boys were all T'averen even though he did not have that talent (further emphasizing the point Moraine had made).   I explained to her a bit about what each Ajah was, and why the blues and the reds were so at odds.   I also explained a little about how Saidin and Sairdar worked, and that it really isn't that men foul the One Power, but that the one power was fouled by the Dark One, and why that means the DR could never be a woman.   Its a really large distinction that the show has not explained well at all, to the point I have to wonder if they will ever make it clear.   I find the whole "well, they are going off of bad information" to be a bit too overused. It's being used too much as a crutch IMO. 

 

There was more, but I don't need to rehash the entire first book here as we all know it.   Her major complaints about the show has always been about pacing and lack of character development.   She would have liked more explanation about the world itself, and more time getting to know and care about the main characters.  She finds that too many times the story jumps from story point to story point to the detriment of character development.   

 

I feel that most of the issues with pacing and character development is less an issue with the writing of the series and more and issue of not having the time to show everything they wanted. Rafe originally wanted 10 episodes and a 2 hour pilot but amazon said no and only gave him the 8. With 10 episodes we likely would have gotten a lot better pacing and much more character development than we have right now. But oh well, there's always season 2.

16 hours ago, Mailman said:

Rosamund seems to be doing a good job, but Moiraine as a character has been reduced vastly from what we get in the books which makes it hard for me to praise the performance to the extent you have.

I would disagree. I think the Moiraine we are seeing on screen is quite accurate to the books, with some slight changes. A strong-willed, thoughtful, intelligent woman with a cool demeanor. Rosamund is absolutely nailing that.

1 hour ago, Hudson said:

I cannot overlook the almost complete change of personality of Lan.  Lan is a stone.  A rock.  They have him touching every other person on the shoulder, the crying, the crying out...but the ripping open his shirt at the end.  Terrible IMO.  That is not Robert Jordan's Lan IMO.

I thought giving Lan this emotional scene was a really good way of humanizing him and showcasing the bond of an Aes Sedai and her Warder. It adds a bit of character to a man who is otherwise completely stoic, even if it's a lot different from what we got in the books.
 

But yeah, I do agree the shirt rip was a little bit much. Could've gone without that and the scene would've still had the weight without the weird melodramatic ripping of the shirt.