3 hours ago, Quiksilver said:

Leaked dialog from s01e08 script

 

 

 

Thoughts on 07,

 

Pros

 

Coherently written, the logic and pacing felt professional, unlike the amateur hour episodes from most of the season. 

 

Cons

 

More character assassination of Mat and Perrin

"Its Rand" infodump

 

 

If that leak is true, it looks like they might be going for a multi-dragon. I really hope not.

That would probably be the nail in the coffin for me. That would not be Wheel of Time. 

I did not like the opening. A woman in full labour actually fighting against trained and experienced soldiers is pretty ridiculous. I also did not like the camera work and also flying around. It felt like one of those martial arts movies, like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. I found it really cringe inducing. Also, we have seen more fighting from a side character than we have from Lan, which is disappointing. 

The Ways were fine. The design of Machin Shin was not great; it looked more like a plague of insects than wind. But the talking was better than what was in the book. That was one thing in the book that was not done that well.

The reveal of the Dragon Reborn was pretty poor. The montage style is fine, but it is just they barely had anything to show in it. They had two things from the same episode (knocking the trolloc off and Machin Shin's words), and one from earlier (pushing the door open). 

There were not enough clues built up throughout the season to make the mystery interesting; it was more like 'darn, we need to make a montage, but we have nothing to show - let's shove all the clues in this episode.' Funnily enough, this lack of clues earlier actually made it obvious to a lot of people it was Rand, anyway. They needed it to be more progressive, rather than slam them all in at the end.

Love triangle of Perrin, Rand, and Egwene - this was a very random addition to the story. It seemed to be added just to create some artificial rivalry and argument, but this could have been done, anyway. Would the characters not be stressed out enough to just get annoyed by simple actions of the characters? A pretty pointless addition, to be honest.

Agelmar - I'm pretty sure he was friendly with Moiraine in the book. Seems a bit of a random change to make to the character. Not seeing how this improves the story.

The Blight - Not a huge fan of the design. I pictured it as pretty sparse and extremely humid. This seems to be more like Mirkwood, which is not something I was expecting. But, I think it might be a way to cheapen the costs of the CGI in the next episode, which  a problem with TV series.

Matt - inherently evil? Not liking that idea that he is almost enjoying the evil dagger. Has Rafe misinterpreted the luck of the Dark One and made him into a, somewhat, evil character? 

Lioal - Discarded. Seems a bit harsh treatment by the group. He risked his life leading them through the ways, and now it is like 'get lost'. 

Overall, it was a much better episode than the last two. However, I do think it could have been much better had they not wasted so much time in the last two episodes to build up more stuff and give more time to certain things. In the end, some things felt more rushed than they should have been.

19 minutes ago, dwn said:

 

 

I don't think it makes the mystery better or worse, but it does help show more of Mat, Perrin, Egwene and Nynaeve, who are equally important characters whose plot arcs will diverge from Rand's in the coming seasons.

 

 

In the books, by the time they've entered the Ways in Caemlyn Rand really hadn't done much either, beyond survive. I honestly don't see much difference between the books and the show in this regard.

That is the thing, though, if it doesn't make it better, what is the point? Considering time is limited, every moment that is used and every use of 'or her' is a waste of time. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Most people will probably miss it on the first read, but he does use the one power in the book (lightning blows up the Inn) before Caemlyn. 

But, in the end, Eye of the World is not actually a mystery book. It is pretty obvious from the start who is the Dragon Reborn, and it never really tries to hide it. The TV series is different by making the mystery a focal point, and it needs to give more signs to make it more difficult to tell between them. This would be easier with only three candidates. 

17 minutes ago, dwn said:

I don't really understand why this topic is so divisive. All they've done is expand the original mystery of who is the Dragon Reborn to give some foreground focus to other characters. Aside from losing the symbolism of three, does it really matter?

 

As for Moiraine, it's worth noting that while she was gone for 8 books (and was hardly in AMoL), those books only covered a few months in-world. If the timeline is smoothed out and reorganised, Moiraine could disappear at the end of one season and return at the end of the next.

 

Also, it's highly likely the plot quagmire of the later books meant Moiraine was absent far longer than RJ originally intended--which necessitated the out-of-nowhere introduction of Cadsuane. And while I'm one of the few who like Cadsuane as a character, her role could be merged with Moiraine's, should Moiraine return sooner.

Here is a question: do you think having five candidates makes it a better story than having three candidates?

If your answer is no, does that not mean that the change was completely pointless and a waste of time? I think so, but it is more than that for me. I think bringing in the idea of five candidates and having women being potential candidates has actually harmed the story. 

Firstly, I think it has caused a major issue with establishing that the Dragon Reborn is a feared being. They have failed to actually make this point in the story, and a major reason is because they cannot tie the Dragon Reborn with the male madness and breaking of the world. Now, they have had to make up that 'The Dragon Reborn may ally with the Dark One' to get around this. That is boring compared to 'The Dragon Reborn breaking the world.'

The other issue is that having more candidates makes it far harder to write. You could build three legitimate claimants with the time they have, but five is too much and has led to a lot of rushing. Rand has done nothing; Perrin just got some gold eyes; Matt has a thing for daggers. The actual non-candidates in the book (Egwene and Nynaeve) get far more building than these three. The lack of action from Rand, in particular, has made it obvious to a lot of non-book readers, also.

36 minutes ago, Ralph said:

They wanted to degender souls. Therefore they used this to create the possibility of Eg and Nyn being DR

 

Not the other way round

 

At least that's what RJII has said

Makes it an even more needless change, if that is the case.

In the end, the only connection of the soul that matters is between Rand and Lews Therin. That is the only one that needs dealing with in the story. Talking about other lives is completely pointless. It will just overcomplicate things and take away the focus, once again, from the main plot. 

Nobody else needs their past lives to have any information to them. 

Plot Hole: Moiraine speaking a different oath to Siuan.

None of the Aes Sedai noticed. It threw up no questions. Siuan was even crying when she did it. I would think someone would probably call this out and use it. It was hardly a hidden thing. 

For, supposedly, great 'political minds' they have all been struck dumb in a matter of moments. I greatly doubt their abilities.

2 hours ago, Sabio said:

The actual foretelling was "He is born again! I feel him!  The Dragon takes his first breath on the slopes of Dragonmount!  He is coming!  He is coming!  Light help us!  Light help the world!  He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder!  He burns like the sun!

 

The he takes his first breath pretty much cement that they should know without a doubt his age.  Now the series might change it but seems that was at least given since even Lan had to tell her Logain was too old.  But you can try to examine it to see if any Aes Sedai world play is occuring.  One main thing is they will need to change it alot to try and push the five dragon nonsense.

Let's give it a go:

"He, or she, is born again! I feel him or her!  The Dragon takes his, or her, first breath on the slopes of Dragonmount, but maybe not now!  He, or she, is coming!  He, or she, is coming!  Light help us!  Light help the world!  He, or she, lies in the snow and cries like the thunder!  He, or she, burns like the sun!

Not exactly catchy.

I'm not a fan. 

Firstly, I think the failure to make the Dragon Reborn strictly male has impacted the idea that the Dragon Reborn is supposed to be feared. It has still not been established that the Dragon Reborn is a terrifying being for the people of the world. If a woman can be the Dragon Reborn, that kills off the idea.

I know they have tried to do the 'they will either fight him or join him' to get around this, but that is not the reason in the book. They fear the Dragon Reborn because they think he will break the world, again. This obviously does not work with a female dragon.

I think also bringing five possible suspects has destroyed any form of mystery. Three people would have created a much tighter narrative and would have allowed time to show signs for Perrin, Rand, and Matt. It would have been far harder to guess. At this moment, everyone I know who has watched series, but not read the books, has guessed it is Rand. 

3 hours ago, The Purple Ajah said:

Again, it seems that a lot of fans that complain about 'pointless' additions or changes do not realize that a lot of them quite obviously contain very important aspects to the story, be that emotional factors, or simply communicating aspects of the plot to us.

 

The scene between Moiraine and Siuan conveys several aspects of the story:

• That the antagonism between Moiraine and Siuan is all for show, and that they truly have an extremely close and intimate relationship.
• That for all her stoicism, Moiraine does have her own interests, people who she loves, and a life she does care about on some level -- even beyond her mission to find the Dragon Reborn.
• That Siuan is an ally for Moiraine and her party, but that there is a need to tread very carefully with the politics of the Hall.
• A segue into setting up Siuan as the only person who knows the truth about Moiraine's mission other than herself and Lan, and discussions about the prophecies and how much they can be trusted, and what the group needs to do for the end of the season.

A picture paints a thousand words. Screenwriting is an art, one that is distinct from a novel, and a scene like this is a perfect example of how a different medium has different assets for telling the same story we all love and care about. What's more, with the rushed pacing at certain points being a large complaint, it is great to have a slower and more emotion and character driven scene for the story.

You don't need a sex scene to show any of that, though. A hug and a joke is enough to show that the whole thing was a façade. In the end, the series has no time to waste and they need to focus on the main points of the story. This important point was telling Siuan that she thinks she has found the Dragon Reborn; a pretty big deal considering they have risked their lives for it.

But, I also don't agree with showing it as a façade this early on, anyway. I think it would have been better that this was left with maybe a small clue, indicating something wasn't quite normal. They then should have proceeded with the banishment and given more time to developing Loial and the other main characters (Rand, Matt, and Perrin, in particular). 

It allow viewers to wonder what is really going on between Siuan and Moiraine. You can have the emotion of her leaving and being banished from the tower (the rod thing wasn't needed, and another waste of time). But she is supposed to be a person who gets on with it in the books. She does what she needs to do, and will quickly focus on the task.

Siuan's development should really have come when Nynaeve and Egwene actually become apprentices. It was strange to do it at this point in the series when there is so much that has not been explained. You also have a major character at this point who has no been properly introduced in Loial.

However, I will admit there is a major issue to this. Since they decided to take this part of the story from Caemlyn to Tar Valon, Moiraine and co actually have no direction. They have no reason to leave the city as they have already reached their target. They need someone to tell them to go, and that is what happened (and for pretty much no reason). 

When they left Caemlyn, they could have been heading to Tar Valon still and need to use the waygate to escape the Trollocs (I can't quite remember how this plays out in the book). I think Rafe wrote himself into a bit of a hole, to be honest, and was forced to do the meeting with the Amyrlin Seat, which was poorly timed for me. 

A massive problem I have had with these last two episodes is how much time has been wasted with made-up material or making small parts in the books into bigger things. 

In this one we have the prologue of Siuan Sanche, which was a complete waste of time. You do not need a backdrop to every character, especially when you have such limited time. It could have just been mentioned in a few seconds if you wanted to do it, but it was never a big thing in the book. It could have even been mentioned in a later season in relation to Tear. 

A lot of scenes take too long. The oath scene for Moiraine. I don't even remember this happening in the book, and it really wasn't needed. Just banish her and have it done. Also, the conversation between Siuan and Moiraine was poorly placed. It would have been better the Amyrlin Seat was seen by watcher as legitimately angry with her. 

The acting was also terrible around the oath swearing. The Amyrlin Seat is crying and Moiraine is saying different things. I thought they were supposed to be politically experienced? They seem like morons here that have given away their plotting. Looks amateurish. 

Another issue is the changes to the story are already creating issues with the storyline, and are leading to some very bad and forced periods. It is pretty concerning for later seasons if they keep on making new material and deviating from the books so much as it is becoming unrecognisable. 

In the book, I am pretty sure they are trying to escape Trollocs when they go to the waygate, but are still trying to make their way to Tar Valon. It is only when they find the path broken that they change direction and, eventually, head for the Eye of the World. They also know about the forsaken/dark one wanting the Eye of the World before going there, so it makes sense. 

In this episode, it is a quick discussion with no evidence: 'The Dark One is at the Eye of the World; you think one of the five are the Dragon; let's send them there with no training or experience.' It is so bad and there was no reason to do this. 

Not enough time has actually been spent on Mat, Rand, and Perrin. Perrin and Rand have barely said anything in the last two episodes. Loial has also been completely destroyed; where is his opposition to entering the Ways?

18 minutes ago, Ralph said:

No snark intended

 

Sorry if it came over that way

 

The point I am making, which I have said numerous times, is that "he thinks he is a better writer than RJ" "he has never read the books" "he can't possibly love the books like we do" are pointless statements, and in my opinion factually untrue, def there is no evidence for any of them. 

 

In your last two posts you have explained why you feel he did it wrong even if his intentions were correct. That is constructive criticism, and every point in it is worth considering and maybe arguing about. 

 

The post before that you said he thinks he is a better writer than RJ. That is a pointless statement to make, and cannot possibly create any debate or contribute to improvements in the show

I think a major issue that people have is that there are 14 books worth of content, a lot of which is needing to be cut for the tv series. So, why are they introducing new material into a series that already needs severe cutting down?

Rath may like the idea of the bond between the warder and the aes sedai, but, even though it was an element in the book, it was never a a major contributor towards the main storyline. Most of it related to the romance between Lan and Nynaeve, which was a side plot, to be honest.

There is a reason why Robert Jordan didn't make it a bigger deal: because it was never meant to be bigger. It was a nice part of the world building and added to the relationship issue between the two characters, but it never needed to be anything more than that. 

In the end, we have already seen quite a lot of elements cut from book one. Half of that last episode was wasted on a made-up storyline to build quite a small element in the total course of the series. And it was quite harmful to that episode, at least: rushed introduction and awkward conversations of Loial being the main one.

Episode 4 looked promising, but episode 5 was the worst episode of the season. I found it really boring. 

What is the point of cutting material from the book if you are just going to add overly elongated scenes about a character who does not even serve a big part? The warder who killed himself was a nobody in the book. It would have been better if he went completely berserk in the last episode and died. 

The conversation between Loial and Rand is really rushed and feels awkward. Also, the part where Loial just decides to bring Nynaeve is so random. Terrible introduction of Loial just to make room for the warder.  

The Lan thing is weird at the end and is not in keeping with the character at all. He is an experienced soldier who has seen death a lot. Also, the chest thumping scene was cringe inducing and a complete waste of time.

They could have driven on the plot or stuck to the books more if they are going to add pointless scenes like that.

It doesn't feel like the Wheel of Time for me. Here are some major issues that I have:

- The series has missed out a major aspect of the characters. They are all enamoured with the stories of old, and how legendary and glorious they are. They are naïve and discover that the reality is far more terrifying and nothing like those tales.

- The Dragon Reborn is never established as a feared entity on par with the Forsaken. In fact, Moiraine just stating one of you is the Dragon Reborn makes it seem completely normal. The group don't seem bothered about the accusation at all, despite it meaning one of the men could be a male channeler.

- Missing the prologue out is a massive shame. I feel it is great at demonstrating the madness that male channelers need to deal with. The medium of a tv-series of film will mean it is easy to understand what is going on. And, since they want dark gritty, what could be more dark and gritty that a man driven mad to a point where he kills his entire family?

- The choice of skipping out Baerlon means the world seems completely devoid of life. The world seems flat and barren as most of the shots have been tiny villages with about five people in them or empty plains.

Pointless and weird changes

- Thom Merilyn has been turned into a cowboy. What is with the cowboy music every he walks? And why is he using an acoustic guitar? It doesn't fit in with the time at all.  

- Perrin's wife. What is the point? She seems to be a mute and has no real interactions with her husband other than to have his axe through her side. It was a laughably bad. 

- Egewene being a candidate for the Dragon reborn undermines the idea of him being a greatly feared being. It is also a pointless change that adds nothing to the story. There were already three candidates, which was plenty. 

- Matt's parents could have been cut out entirely. I would have far preferred that to what they did in this series. It wasn't needed and has changed his character. In the books, he is a man who tries to shirk his responsibilities. He is trying to have fun in his life. That is not the case in the tv series.

It feels really lacking to me. It just seems like a bunch of people wandering around a barren land in the first three episodes. The world has no life in the tv series.