On 5/8/2024 at 9:49 AM, Bugglesley said:

 

Thank you for the full context. I still think it's the dagger. Issues I have with the Mat Soul theory are:

- Either the dagger or Mashadar could sensibly called an "old thing," while that doesn't make as much sense for a soul

- I get your argument here, that he's uniquely connected, but even in the early going before I don't think Mat is any more connected to the past than other members of the EF5. Egwene also shouts in the Old Tongue in EoTW and gets a few "Tai'shar Manetheren"s, Perrin is directly linked to countless battles with the DO through the wolves, Rand is.. well uh he's permanently bound to the DO through the pattern as its eternal enemy. Only Nynaeve doesn't really have something. The other three all have souls/past lives/connections to the past and I don't know if Mat's would be unique enough for him to be singled out/tracked.

- Even if he were that distinct, several other Forsaken spend a significant amount of time and effort trying to track him down in the last few books, and never once do they think "oh yeah we can smell his soul." The thing that's changed about him between these two timeframes is the severing of his connection to Mashadar.)

- The "old friend" thing also bugs me, there are many instances in the books where Mat flashes back to his old lives and, while he fights on all sides of many battles, they're all post-breaking; and even with the Trolloc Wars in that time he is absolutely never once fighting on the Shadow's side. With how often those memories get mined to traumatize Mat, RJ would have certainly mentioned if he was carrying memories of carting off children to Trolloc cookpots. I don't think "on both sides" is accurate if you include the Shadow as a side.

I like the idea that this points to Mashadar but the source material is not in favor of it. I'm not sure it's even wrong- could be there was more to it when RJ first made out book one- which ends so very differently than any other book.

Point 3 here- I would say this could equally fall down flat by way of such things as- Rand has learned to shield his dreams, Perrin becomes untraceable through his wolf dream, Mat in fact no longer becomes Mat

More important is point 4- Mat is never clear about anything. Especially after the memory gain. He may not have ever of had -and in fact it's likely impossible given Rand's ability to purge at the end- any memories of Darkfriends but it's not at impossible that at some point he was mobilized against the both the shadow and the light. Probably only Rand- or perhaps Nynaeve is more annoyed with the Creator than Mat. I think even that Hawkwing mentions that he had fought Mat before? And I would even say maybe Hawkwing isn't even quintessentially of the 'light'. 

Generally it's all quite unknown  and honestly I think this died with RJ, but it does again make me wonder further about this connection between Mat's lost  eye and Eye of the World

It was just funny that it had never occurred to me before, and a cursory search showed nothing. It's obvious RJ meant something by  this parallel. What two things are discovered under the EotW? The Horn- which Mat blows and the banner, and who leads the Dragon's army at Tarmon Gaidon? Mat. Though it was Perrin who raised the banner in TGH. What leads Aginor and Balthamel to the Eye? Mat- 'An old thing, an ancient thing'

Honestly- I'm still puzzled by the connection and I can generally figure out some of the more esoteric things RJ intended- I was way ahead of the curve on knowing Zen Rand can't be shielded or  likely even turned through channeling. This one though... I think it might be buried in that 'mystery of Mat' pool which we'll never actually figure out without the Epilogue trilogy.

After a few days of thinking the relevant reference I figure is that Sanderson himself discovered something in the notes about this that he couldn't really get at- or that he didn't want to take on, or that he himself wondered about, but found nothing. What happens to the Dragon banner? In aMoL Mat -Mat again here- drops it while riding to Shayol Ghul with Olver. This kind of makes me think that perhaps this entire Mat's Eye/EotW was a thing at some point in RJ's ideas that he dropped- like I think he dropped a few ideas after the 1st trilogy.

However, it's still kind of intriguing and could have some some intriguing speculation. Since the wheel is eternal- do the Finn's somehow ALWAYS have possession of Mat's eye and was that somehow used to help create the EotW? I mean- it's a pretty esoteric point. Yet there's no way it began as entirely coincidental point.

So if anyone else has any ideas or thoughts the ways they could perhaps -even tenuously- have connection please throw it out there

Sidenote: Another interesting discussion I haven't really is seen is the symbology of Mat losing an eye vs Rand losing his hand

Haven't seen it- so how about this:

Eye of the world- Matrim Cauthon's eye

Please discuss

lines like....

When Mat jokes about 'crazy women' and Lan threatens to kill him

There's a brilliant Nynaeve passage, where, in a space of a page she contradicts herself in her own narrative

What are the good quotes?

On 4/3/2023 at 6:51 AM, DojoToad said:

Love the series of course, but if she is one of the best...  How bad was it before she got her mitts on it? 

Why not ask Glenn Cook?

Then go ahead and query the Malazon?

I hoped for you Toad, that you could ever be anything more... . but you are nothing more than less than a tool of the ordinary. Enjoy the eddings of it 

What a tool

Books 1-3 through could likely be called the 'mythic cycle' of WoT. Ending with Dragon Reborn where Rand -as the pied piper- is able to pull the sword from the stone. It's the end of a certain style of storytelling by Jordan. SO yes- i heartily would tell fantasy reader to read books 1-3 and stop after 3 if so needs be

27 minutes ago, Stedding Tofu said:

 

I thought Aviendha's descendant visions were as moving and as sweeping in scope as Rand's ancestor visions and the voice and content felt like RJ to me.  If BS wrote or developed this from RJ's notes it's an area where he hits the right notes for me.

Alot of this conversation revolves around the fact that Sanderson revealed he, along with the team developed the Nakomi character- and the subsequent Rhuidean visions. So...

edit: also revealed- Nakomi isn't a note, moreso an interpretation by Sanderson; I won't reiterate all that's been said

21 hours ago, Stedding Tofu said:

 

Ah, I see.  I thought you were identifying a hidden Lanfear at work in one of the visions.

 

I think RJ was simply showing us that  victory over The Shadow does not lead to a paradise or utopia as human nature has not changed (my comparison is to post-WWII Europe with the Seanchan and Randland as the USSR / Western Allies eyeing each other with suspicion and hostility due to incompatible systems of thought and government).

 

But as @Sabio says the future Aviendha saw was a result of the Aiel starting a losing struggle with the Seanchan out of warlike pride and the visions confirm that Tuon and her descendants kept to the truce until the Aiel broke it.  This is very human and although new crises will emerge the Aiel being bound to The Dragon's Peace seems to neutralise this one. 

 

No need for Lanfear (or The Dark One) for humans to fight each other in other words ☹️

Right. Right. good post.

2 things

1- The first paragraph is very easy, and if anything it is defied by the lighting of pipe at the end of it.

2- This thread is about Lanfear surviving and living free and I would think it gonna have reprecussions.

18 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

One slight thing I am still not 100% how much of the "vision of the future" was RJ planned work, it is in one of the BS books and I don't know if it has been confirmed if he lifted it from RJ's notes or came up with the idea himself in order to ensure the dragons peace would be enacted with the Aiel. 
 

Now this is a point I would very much like to dig further into.

Edit: In regards to Charrid I think it's right that the upcoming times for Randland would be strife with moments and intrigue, but what's the difference between Lanfear holding power and the future where she is ground down?

I would guess RJ planned Mat to kill her

Oh definitely, but I think he took nearly as much from Feist as from Eddings, though probably a touch more from Eddings. And, Obviously Tolkien is one of the baseline influences, esp books 1-3, but the Zelazny influence through the all of WoT can't be missed

I think I've mentioned previously- I would love to have chopped it up with RJ, or Harriet for that matter not on Wot in particular but on what they thought of other things. Truly masterful readers

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

 

I must be missing something: how does Aviendha's vision connect to Lanfear?

Previously I mentioned that Aviendha's vision comes off as out of step, almost forced, given the stability that should come from the Dragon's Peace and with Mat and Perrin both surviving as just leaders- and this was something I have in notes from my first read through which after subsequent leads I neither endorsed nor dismissed. However, were there a nefarious power attempting to thwart them... It really is the strongest clue Sanderson gives that there is a strong and direct distortive power upon the future

This also makes me rethink Mesaana's vegetablization and Graendel's collapse in a different way- both of which seemed just a touch off.

Edit: I would actually be interested for someone like Matt who is an ultra Lanfear fan to provide more clarity that she earned this life and something of a surprise ending through the writing of this whole series. Really, she and Ishmael are the most developed of the Forsaken though I might think Mogs gets the most page time

Double edit: On first reading I did wonder about the Lanfear dying moment but it actually is pretty spot on in the entirety

I just finished the first Amber Quintet by Zelazny and if you are a big RJ fan and have not read it I would absolutely tell you that you should put it in your list of things to read ASAP. Obviously RJ took from Tolkien, and I've seen people say he took a lot from Herbert but... wow did he take from Zelazny in spectacular style. There are more than a few things that will make you lol when you read it

THe first quintet is pretty solid as well. Very smooth series for all its mystery though I found the writing of the 1st book to be so on point and clever that it made me want- for as the series went on the perspective, I felt, was not quite as sharp and fluid

On 1/17/2023 at 1:36 PM, Samt said:

It seems that BS himself acknowledges to some extent the fact that he does not retain absolute control.  If he didn't, he wouldn't feel the need to specify that this isn't a retcon and bring witnesses to the fact that this was always the intention (and that Harriet and the team had agreed to this).  In the end, I'm coming to the conclusion that the reveal should be interpreted more as a statement of the intention that was not really delivered.  Writing a story like WoT is a complicated process that will always have lots of "might have beens."  For instance, Lanfear surviving might have been an interesting story.

This is probably the most important part- Sanderson gave us some author intent and I personally think there's enough there -Aviendha's Rhuidean vision- to make me see it. Is there enough there to earn all of it? I think there's enough, not too much, but I'll give Sanderson credit that even when I read it initially her death hit a discordant note to my reading

On 1/13/2023 at 12:14 PM, Samt said:

Hubris aside, one of the elements of the forsaken that is explored quite a bit is the fact that at the end of the day they are all just humans living in mortal bodies (with all of the phyiscal, emotional, and mental limitations that this implies).  This comes up when Cadsuane is interrogating Semirhage and is fairly apparent in the Lan/Demandred confrontation.  It is also instrumental to the way that Nynaeve bests Moghedien the first time. Moreover, the point is made that the forsaken have spent so much time doing everything with the one power that they have become complacent with their ability to do things the old-fashioned way.  The mortal vulnerability of Aes Sedai to surprise is a main part of the justification for having warders.  (It's even part of Nynaeve's character that she specifically resists relying too heavily on the one power and is still interested in the use of herbs for healing, for example.  This is critical to her ability to save Alanna at Shayol Gul at least for some time in order to protect Rand even though she can't control her channelling since she is in a circle that Rand is controlling.  )

For that reason, I didn't think it all weird that Perrin bests Lanfear by snapping her neck.  He surprises her and kills her before she can react.  I think that assuming Lanfear would somehow be beyond mortal weakness is adding something that is clearly contradicted many times in the series.  Is she easy meat?  No.  But is she vulnerable to being surprised and overwhelmed the same way everyone else is?  Absolutely. 

This isn't really, of course, an argument for Lanfear not being alive.  My main point is that taking the events in AMoL at face value is quite reasonable and there really is very little evidence to the contrary.  

Yeah- maybe the wires are crossed, but I agree that Perrin snapping Lanfear's neck seems a fitting ending for both her and Perrin. 

Is there something off in all this though? probably but there are so many off things- I mean, Padan Fain and Androl are almost entire glitches in the Sanderson matrix

On 1/11/2023 at 6:48 AM, Sir_Charrid said:

SO I have been thinking about this and Perrins journey and I maintain in isolation with no further book to come it does take away from Perrins story, it makes him a tool, a putz for Lanfer. Both Mat and Rand have outsmarted and beaten Forsaken. Mat on the battle field and Rand, well, he has killed several. Some more then once. This was Perrins moment, putting him on a level alongside Mat and Rand of being able to take on and beat a forsaken, and this takes it away, it again relegates Perrin to the weaker of the 3. I would have no issue with that if a follow up story saw Perrin discover what she did and beat her, but we will never get that so, my final view of perrin was that he was the only one not equal to a forsaken of the 3 boys

Weak critique 

2 hours ago, Samt said:

After thinking more about it, it seems that the reason very few people suspected Lanfear's survival is that her death makes sense.  I don't think that it was well established that Lanfear had reached the conclusion that the dark one's victory would be bad for her no matter what.  Certainly she wanted to undermine the other forsaken in order to get back on top and that explains why she was willing to help the forces of light at various points.  But that is very different from having abandoned all plans for ever serving the shadow.  

If Lanfear had completely deceived Perrin and was in control of the situation, it stands to reason that she could have killed him.  Had she killed Perrin, she could have also easily killed Moiraine and Nyneave who couldn't control their channelling at the time.  Then, it would have been easy to kill Rand and even Morridin if she wanted.  She could have then freed the dark one and he would have been victorious.  Lanfear's decision to become one of the forsaken initially is predicated on the assumption that she believes that the dark on would reward her when he wins.  If she had believed that he would reward her when he wins, surely she believes that the dark one would reward her for essentially single-handedly defeating the Dragon and his close allies in the final battle while also breaking open the dark one's prison.  The claim that she didn't think that the dark one's victory would ever be to her advantage seems weak and unsupported.  

In general, it always seems more realistic when even the master plotters and schemers are working through a network of contingencies and backup plans, seizing opportunities and overcoming setbacks, rather than executing a single, complex and interwoven plan.  If a character is able to plan ahead and control exactly what is going to happen in a complex situation, he or she is so much more powerful than everyone else involved that the story seems hollow.  Lanfear is obviously powerful, but she is by no means a peerless power at the time of the last battle.  For this reason, I assume that Lanfear was playing both sides and waiting for an opportunity to get back in the driver's seat.  

As such, if Lanfear survived, I would find it more plausible that it was more a quickly executed backup plan.  For instance, on finding Rand, Nynaeve, Moiraine, and Moridin in a vulnerable situation, she sees her opportunity to prove her worth to the dark one and again become favored over the other forsaken.  The only obstacle is Perrin, who is clearly intent on stopping her.  She decides to use compulsion to wrap him in her plan and complete the victory.  However, Perrin is unexpectedly able to resist.  She realizes that he is about to kill her.  Unwilling to risk an uncertain fight against Perrin, she chooses to deceive him into thinking that he has succeeded and thus makes her escape.

As others have said, one of the biggest complaints about Lanfear's survival is that it seems to really undermine Perrin's arc and general growth.  It makes it so he was really just a pawn the whole time.  One of the things about him overcoming the compulsion is that he uses his sense of self and where his home is.  If that was just an illusion and he really didn't overcome the compulsion, that feels pretty dirty.  I like the above explanation.  Lanfear wasn't just manipulating Perrin.  If he hadn't been there, she would have killed the other heroes at Shayol Gul.  Perrin really did need to be there to watch Rand's back (and not just because of Slayer). But being a master of deception, Lanfear is still able to adapt and escape.  

This really well thought out but it assumes that Lanfear is easy meat- and yes Sanderson does not hold down the fort so to speak in regards to the foreshadowing, and I reread the entire series with an eye on all of this a year or so ago. Really- getting her neck snapped was pretty spot on. I mean- you really wanna get hunted down by Cadsuane?

So yeah- Lanfear alive I can see it but it's not an obvious find unless you do the 1.2.3 bullshit- 

1 hour ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I really feel that it is a very unnecessary “reveal” that takes away from Perrin as there is no possibility of Perrin ever finding and catching her because there will be no further books. 
 

If there was some new series coming out then I would enjoy these reveals (Lanfer, Nakomi) far more because it would come with a sense that they are going to be followed through. 

Don't think this takes away anything from Perrin- though the Sanderson explanation of 'he believes in himself therefore is naive' lacks.... but a lot of his newest stuff has this track, and it's fine enough

There are three clear clues I can think of in the Sanderson works that indicate this outcome.

Mesaana- getting vegetated so quickly

Graendal- who was bossing in Tarmon Gaidon just gets dived 

Aviendha- this is the big one- the whole second Rhuidean sequence of the world going to absolute shit so quickly makes way more sense if Lanfear is alive. It's still a bit crap but at least now there's more coherence into that vision

On 1/6/2023 at 7:23 AM, expat said:

After thinking about the issue more, I want to revise my thoughts.  The discussion is based on the hubris of the book reader.  We know the scene from the book and the question is whether the series scene makes sense based on that scene.  However, the important viewer is the non-book reader, and the scene plays far differently. 

 

To the non-book reader, their experience is that almost nobody could sneak up on Lan, no matter his mental state, at night over uneven, forestry terrain.  I'm certain I, or almost any other viewer, couldn't get within 50-75 feet of him before I would rustle some leaves or snap a twig.  Other viewers would have the same opinion.  Therefore, Lan detecting Nyn would not appear exceptional (duh, of course he would), nor him not detecting her appear realistic.  So, to the non-book reader, both our arguments fall flat.  This would be just another scene of suspending disbelief in a fantasy series.

The hubris of the book reader is that Nynaeve is the mirror of Rand- she slammed Mogs like a punk ass without a thought, and while Rand fueled horses, maybe, just maybe Nynaeve could use her skills in the power to sneak up on a man. 'She can't track him' she literally moved through every dark damn place, through pure insanity to get where she was in the books. Nynaeve SLAYS

Books 1-3 through are all quite good. Really- If I could dig one thing from his mind it would be his takes on other books, he was a fantastic reader. In particular I would say book 1 is WAY underrated. It may not be the most original but it's written deftly and for those who read well that meeting at the Eye- it's glorious.

Eye is an outlier of the series though. You might remember it but should one ever read Eye of the world then read The Great Hunt back to back there is a definite change of pacing. Also, let's never underestimate the Battle of Falme, one of the 3 great endings in the series. 

Though from an artistic perspective it's clear books 4-6 have more going opposed to some of the technical adroitness of the first three

Broken Earth Trilogy by NK Jemison is excellent

Tad Williams in general but really Memory, Sorrow and Thorn 

RA Salvatore has picked up recently but who knows.

Mike Brooks is a good start. It's a little slow -these are only 500 page books lol- so we'll see but this has a ton of potential

Melissa McPhail probably is the closest to the grandiosity to Jordan and Martin but there are certain moments of glaring weakness that annoy me in the writing- but if you are craving an epic world with epic characters this is the most comparable one I've seen.

And Name of The Wind is pretty great though I would just read it as a stand alone. I don't think there's any future in the series

I'm pretty meh on this reveal. I like Sanderson but I don't doubt he was in over his head in many regards writing the finale.  The whole Nakomi thing does not write well, one of the weaker points of Memory, but I don't blame him for attempting something which could very well be very distinct to him. One thing when I read Memory of Light is there are some great moments of unsatisfaction. The Pit of Doom is a stand out, I enjoy that RJ wrote it, but it's not fleshed out- the Tower of Ghenjei narrative rings much more true to RJ's final edit

However: A reading that is absolutely on point -that is not quite mentioned on this forum- is very Jungian in psychology. There is a strong case to be made that the Dark One is the Dragon. As in- the Dark One exists because Lews Therin exists. The Dark One is the voice of the tyrant which exists inside the First of the Servants 

Now this is something I can absolutely see. I don't know if it was executed as well as it could have been but there's more than enough to make me believe that this was the way it went. The thing of course is this: if Mierin were capable of such an elaborate thing while on the precipice of glory or fall wouldn't she have earned her third name before she 'Found' the Dark One? It's interesting, I don't mind it at all

I give Wot a very slight edge critically speaking over RoP despite the fact RIngs definitely had the edge in aesthetics. However, that may well be in favor of WoT. Anyone who watches the first season of Rings of Power could very well be interested in other such offerings.

WoT did actually have a few distinct set of visual moments I hope they keep up so that they don't fall into either the RoP or HoD aesthetic.

On 10/27/2022 at 6:28 AM, SinisterDeath said:

GoT is the outlier of Fantasy Television

Lest us not forget, that George R.R. Martin spent time as a screen writer (Beauty and the Beast, The Outer Limits) 

For screenwriters, his work has the advantage of generally being easier to translate directly to the screen then other works of fantasy.

It's also easy to forget that many purists hated on the show (before season 8 ) for the changes they made to the source material throughout the show.

There's truth here, but not totally. Martin's prose recalls a tv series. While Wheel -like Tolkien, who may inform such- is written in the form of cinematic experience. The end of Lord of Chaos is a great example of such differences in writing. And honestly I don't think we should expect such major extravaganza from a 64 hour tv series. The big screen is still the big screen and 3 hours in it is a different experience even than Rings of Power, for all its cinematic quality

Some good points in the thread- the thing is of course that a well crafted book is almost always better and that's regardless the setting

PS Have also noticed that more books in the category -I've read- nowadays fall more in line with the Martin formula of a more serialized form of writing

On 10/1/2022 at 8:33 PM, DaddyFinn said:

RoP still doesn't hit the right spots for me. Lazy writing(too many close calls and last minute rescues, the usual cliches), boring action with some highlights(Arondir vs. miniboss orc), characters I still don't care about(pretty much all of them).. The ending was ridiculous. Something has to happen in the last two episodes to hype up season 2. I don't have high hopes.

 

WoT had barely any of these issues for me. Might be biased but they are nowhere in the same level. The money isn't showing with other than the visuals.

 

Sadly this season has been pretty much as I expected: not interesting.

I do think WoT was stronger in many aspects and it almost certainly has to do with drawing from more potent source material. So far Rings has been chalk full of wonky fantasy trope, too much over the top action moments, and the story too laden with mystery/intrigue. It's very ABC in terms of 'fantasy' Having said that- it is the 1st season and I see definite signs of life in the acting, and some of the characters, and though there have been some not great visual moments, it has had many visuals that were a true joy to behold

19 hours ago, DojoToad said:

• Assassin Nynaeve taking out trolloc on her own
• Untrained Nynaeve healing blast after trained Aes Sedai failed to contain Logain
• Mat and Rand saved from terminator darkfriend at last minute by Thom
• Untrained channelers miraculously save the day at the last minute after trollocs overwhelm defenders at Tarwin's Gap
• Untrained Egwene heals near-dead Nynaeve
• Cliff hanger with Loial getting cut by evil dagger - usual cliches

I don't have high hopes...

Eh- this was such a passing thing. Taim not swordmastering was the far larger trespass

In a 64 episode series this is probably warranted for what will come

Again eh- bigger issue was the lack of accounting of time with Mat/Rand/Thom- the mentoring and closeness of that initial relationship was lost. This also goes for Lan

Well- there was a lot of messed up stuff in the last 2 episodes. The cavalry charge should always be a hilarious meme

I accept that TV shows will hang on cliffs- it's part of the deal

Both have suffered from Tvish treatment but I think Rings feels it more, which seems right as they are starting from scratch with a story that's mostly on them. I hope they can start to bring things together and tighten things up to make it a unique thing rather than hitting all the 'high fantasy' notes. While WoT likely faces the near opposite problem- squeezing in enough lore while also balancing the ability to tell a story through a visual medium at a pace that's almost antithetical to the style RJ

15 hours ago, Asha'man Shar'aman said:

Thanks! I did the first one yesterday, I had a somewhat similar opinion to yours after one episode. Boring but great cinematography. 

I think it can't be overstated how great this looks. I agree with most of the people saying that there's a whole lot of meh but there's also nothing horrible- plenty of time to get better. Will be worth watching if just for the groundbreaking cinematic quality for a streaming series. 

I'm not one of those people who thinks if a show fails it's good because then a reboot might happen later in a better way. No, the more there is the more there will be- let the cup runneth over

On 8/30/2022 at 8:45 AM, CaddySedai said:

Honestly I feel that the opposite is true. That in the AoL pre-breaking era there was peace so swordplay evolved into a sort of dance. A show. And people like LTT and Demmy, while they were leagues more skilled than others who may battle - being as strong in the power as they were - it is unlikely they would have used swordplay except to show off - since you could balefire entire armies out of existence. So they had no reason to grow, to incorporate more “actual battle” moves designed to break through a defense rather than flow and ebb in a pattern. 

 

Lan however being a borderlander basically lived on the cusp of death his whole life. That while the naming convention of sword forms still implies the dance exists the intent changed. No longer was it to show ones skill and defeat your foe by making one move slightly better, slightly faster, slightly better angled - now the forms were intended to directly exploit holes and to kill the opponent and make sure you aren’t dead after the win. 

 

So his training not only would have given Rand variations of moves his contemporaries would not know, but also a different mindset on the battle itself and that to me is the bigger difference. Demandred and ilk desire to show off as they battle, where Rand just wants to live and make them dead, how he looks or what people think of his skill is not a factor. 

 

 

One of the the themes RJ definitely repeated was the Forsaken as mostly Paper Tigers. This is one of many examples that showed in these matters the Forsaken had a resolve that could be likened to cardboard while 3000 years of not so great times had resulted in a more steely resolve for our protagonists.