Peace Guys .... Im done .... every Leak was correct 

 

1 minute ago, DaddyFinn said:

Yes it was. Just not every book fan can accept it

and yet Rafe acknowledges they were going to LOOSE hardcore book fans because its too different .... his words not mine 

1 minute ago, Skipp said:

Wasn't made for the hardcore book fans.

 

Go into the episode with an open mind and remember that the changes are all designed around the idea that the show will have 8 seasons to tell the story.  If that is an unacceptable idea then I don't think the show will change your mind.

Leaks are approaching Fanfic levels of adaption

this pretty much confirms what everyone has been complaining about here 
https://twitter.com/Dempore/status/1474077664294146053/photo/1

I Now 100% believe the leaks ... the show wasnt made for us book fans ....

2 hours ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

Take the "leaks" with a healthy grain of salt.  There's a lot of bogus ones out there.

 

The FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) factor is high at the moment from certain corners of the Internets.

 

Some changes may be controversial but they also make a degree of sense in the big picture.

 

only issue is the leaks for the last episode were 100% True 

if the leaks are to be believed this is gonna be a trainwreck

ok this was my favorite episode thus far ... and a fresh breath after the last one 
1 - I agree about the Blight - but we shall see
2 - when Moraine suck the Reds on Mat it actually made sense ... because they WONT bond a man ... ya ,... harsh thing to do but makes sense (I didn't even think about it ramping up the desire for the foxhead medallion - if that's where they are going I am a huge fan)
3 - MORE LOIAL DAMNIT !!!!
4 - I saw the budding of this love triangle thing back in episode 2 or 3 (cant remember which one for sure) but tbh there's nothing ... I took a lot of the defensive Perrin stuff as being Wolf Loyal which I do like 
5a - the ways ... eh sure I suppose ... I mean they are not used THAT much anyways ... 
5b - Machin Shin .... Meh ?
6 Min - didn't Hate her ... but at the same time ... time will tell
7 Finally we got over the whole Female Dragon / multi headed Crap - I just hope the show can survive the onslaught of the twitterverse

8 Lanyneve - felt accelerated to me ... but didnt hate it 
9 I don't remember a lot of fal dara from the book ... but didn't Uno swear worse than a drunken sailor even in book 1 ?
10 - NYNEAVE BRAID TUG !!!!!!!
 

and finally - was it just me or was the sound editing really off in this epiosode - Im likely gonna watch some of it on a different unit just to see if it was my setup or not but Im just curious


 

as far as the 5 headed dragon ... they have 5 ppl from EF 
and most of your team based shows start with 5 members 
Power Rangers, Captain planet, Voltron - so its not a difficult leap to go to a 5 headed Dragon

however like I said ... some leaks leave me hopeful 

this has been my single biggest concern since some of the Early Rafe interviews on the show - particularly on the  degendering souls interview 

However
 

34 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

I don't blame Rafe for Harris.  it's an assumption, but balance of probabilities say it's not his fault. Occam's razor says it's Covid related, somehow. And I can think of at least 4 reasonable ways they can get Mat to Falme by episode 8, so it's easily fixable, since his role on the road in tGH was minimal.

 

 

wrong mat stuff .... talking about after he gets his memories back and it wold be messy that he lead other lives some of which wold have been women ..... he already had enough of an identity crisis .... he doesnt need more 

no if the Harris Departure reports are true I no longer even look at that as a point of contention

49 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

1a - ever consider Rafe is lying in the media, to back the who is the DR angle? That maybe it's a work to drum up speculation and interest? My point again - your concerns, a, b,  and your closing go away completely the minute <deleted> is the one and only Dragon Reborn. If they aren't, I'm probably on your side. But if they are, most of your concern and all of the agita about mis-gendered souls and Captain Planet, and 5 headed dragons fall to dust. And if it goes the way I think it will, Rafe has an iron clad defense for his decision against Twitter - it's what's in the book, after all.

 

1d - if they eliminate real knowledge of history, it's not out of the realm that they would think the mythical eye marks the prison. It is after all, the location of a seal. I think it's a dumb change - and we'll not mention Moiraine's been there before - but it will be revealed as not the prison of the Dark One Because it isn't. 3 years from now, they'll check the KC, and Thom or Loial (maybe Min) will go it is exactly right after all. His blood on the slopes of Shayol Ghul will set people free. So he's going to Shayol Ghul.

 

Where he bleeds to death from Tuon stabbing him with Mat's dagger, transferring his soul into Alivia's empty husk of a body and marrying Elayne, who is the only one of the three who likes the new look.

1a/b - Most of a,b ya ... though the mat thing still gets messy and as for Rafe lying ... I highly doubt it .. particularly since they have fully doubled down on that crap in the show
and no defense is Ironclad against the twitterverse - to think that means you underestimate its power in the world of media
also Im not saying they are going to do the multi dragon thing .... I just see it happening with everything thus far - Light I hope I'm wrong ... but I just don't trust them not to pull some shite like that... too much effort has been put into it already

1d -sorry majorly sidetracked on this one - edit comming .... ya ok ... I suppose I see that ... agreed its dumb but ok 

I'll have to read the end of AMOL again because I dont remember that part
 


 

41 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

I think once <deleted> is revealed to be the DR, most of those are going to blow away. The references to female dragons (which I took to mean False Dragons) are the only material changes to history or geography I've noticed, if you don't count stuff that's flat dropped for time. The prophecy confusion leading to <deleted> won't matter.  We may even get scenes pointing out how accurate the Cycle is, along with new Foretellings from the Finns and the Min to help drive the plot forward, and align more closely to the books. The reincarnation argument is no more provable in WoT than it is in any real world religion, and doesn't impact much in the story - plot, theme, or setting - so don't dwell on it.

 

As for the pandering, I'll take that in two parts:

1. The homosexual behaviour of the Aes Sedai and the Warders is in text canon, and believable in both the cultural context of the AS, and in the emotional resonance caused by the bond itself. Certainly much more in text than it was in the Pern novels, which had the exact same kind of relationships 25 years earlier. And it's much more believable than, say, Frank Miller's 300 NOT having homosexuality in it. I don't think of this as pandering

2. The overemphasis of women in positions of power outside the AS. I grant that is being shown more, by director's choice. But a thought occurs to me as I type this. The culling (as Adeleas I think called it) of strong men who can channel may have also been culling other male traits out of the population. Not that I'll credit RJ2 with following that logic, but in a society where men were not to be trusted for 3,000 years, it's a wonder the whole continent isn't Ebou Dar. Or Y the Last Man, or The White Plague. It emphasizes that the world is out of balance and desperately needs fixing. And if you're taking a current day sub-text out of that, you may want to consider why.

 

Having said all that, if <deleted> isn't clearly a channeling Dragon Reborn by X-mas morning, I'll be upset enough at Shai'tan Clause to change my views on a lot of this.

1a - in interviews Rafe said both Female Dragons AND False Dragons ". It’s a very fundamental change actually to make to the book series, and it has a lot of ripple effects, and we’ll continue to do things like that I think are more reflective of what hopefully Robert Jordan would be writing if he was writing today. " very presumptuous to claim to know the mind of a man who is no longer with us in the living world
and "I think the idea that the Dragon Reborn doesn’t necessarily need to only be a male character, that’s really important."... "Also, as we learn, some of the Dragons of the past were women. "---- this leads directly into........

1b - De-gendering Souls - Mat has enough problems without having lived past lives as a woman too
---here is a  thread that has grabbed lots of RJ's Quotes over the years ... so yes - it is provable ---- unless of course your saying RJ was wrong like Rafe is
https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/147146/how-does-reincarnation-work-in-the-wheel-of-time-series
of specific note is this gem from RJ's blog---
 "...so the soul of the Dragon Reborn is always going to be male, just as Birgitte's soul is always born as a woman, just as Ameresu's soul is always born as a woman. There are divisions here, and they are not interchangeable."

1c - women not being able to tell a woman channeler unless they are actively touching the source

1d - EotW being supposedly merged with Shayol Ghul
and probably a few more that I cant think of at the moment

Sadly the Pandering Im talking about has nothing to do with any of that - its a direct result of the amount of effort that's gone into trying to convince the audience at large that eg or nyn can be the DR, because sadly if they don't do that (or if  <deleted> is the one and only DR very likely has the same outcome) the show gets called Misoganistic and cancel culture comes for the show - never underestimate the power of twitter blue checks 

these aren't baseless accusations I'm tossing around - I'm using Rafes own words and what Ive seen on screen as basis for a lot of this 

Seriously I See him making at least 2 of them the DR and that's gonna be it for me 

--captain planet tune---
We're the Dragoneers, you can be one too, cause saving the wheel is the thing to do
by your powers combined - I AM CAPTAIN DRAGON
Captain Dragon - they's our hero, gonna take forsaken down to zero

ya ... that's how far down the hole my brain has gone

2 hours ago, dwn said:

When it comes to an adaptation, any changes that facillitate production or are obvious due to the different medium just don't bother me all that much--particularly if I can come up with a plausible reason behind the change in just a few seconds. Some examples:

 

Having a variety of fast-travel means works in a book, but is just confusing without a ton of exposition. This episode shows Moiraine using some kind of gateway ter'angreal, which superficially acts like the Waygate we see later on--obviously meant to introduce the concept of fast-travel in a clear and concise fashion, since it's something that comes up repeatedly throughout the story.

 

We see more of Logain to emphasise what happens to men who can channel, which gives added weight to Thom's warning, helps show what the Dragon Reborn means to the world, and foreshadows what awaits the Dragon Reborn in the long run.

 

Showing the Oath Rod here reinforces the idea of ter'angreal in general, as well as showing magically binding oaths, both of which (for a TV show audience) are important to set up early on. Otherwise the first time we actually see the Oath Rod is during the BA hunt.

 

Moving scenes from Caemlyn and Fal Dara to Tar Valon reduces one-off locations, which simplifies production and lets them spend more on an important place like Tar Valon.

 

The scenes in The Tower (including those between Siuan and Moiraine) are mostly reworked/relocated ideas from other books (New Spring and TGH), and lay important groundwork for Aes Sedai, Warders, and the various Tower factions and politics--all of which are critical to the overall story.

 

Leaving the horses at the Waygate was obviously done to reduce production cost.

 

Mat not entering the Ways is likely due to the actor leaving. Yes it's unfortunate, but these things happen. Should they merge TGH and TDR to some degree, it puts him in a good place to pick up his story later on.

Finally, while I agree that some scenes and edits are a bit clunky, these episodes are already near or over an hour long--which is basically giving us ~11 typical TV episodes this season. Sure it would have been better with more time in places, but that just wasn't practical.

 

Thus far, almost all the changes have been to: reduce cost and complexity; compress the story for a different medium; simplify the lore and worldbuilding for a different audience; and work around unforeseen hiccups in production. That seems reasonable to me.

yup ... and aside from 2 handfuls of individuals in this thread these are not the issues that are causing the biggest complaints 

for the most part we expect this type of thing 

its the fundamental changes to the World, The History, the One Power, the way the Wheel Works, The Prophecies, and the pandering to current Socio-Political constructs- that are making the biggest waves 
 

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

Lacking that answer...Egwene goes anyway, because she believes she is the DR, 

fixed that for you

1 hour ago, thewalrus777 said:

I've been waiting for this since i saw that Red Eagle pilot with Billy Zane. They should've just let Billy Zane redo the pilot and produce the whole show instead of Rafe. This show is so far off from the books that I'm probably not gonna watch them butcher my baby beyond the first season. Stepin was useless melodromatic drivel that served nothing because they didn't tell anyone the bond was done through the one power causing folks to have real questions about all of that. There aren't multiple DR's at the same time. That's absolute utter nonsense. Rafe really doesn't care for the fans even though he swears that he is a die hard fan. He's adding extra stuff into this show when it already exists in the ACTUAL story. That and skipping Caemlyn is a GIANT FREAKING NO-NO for me altogether. A vital part of the story was massively altered and skipped altogether and that doesn't sit well for me because it was a fantastice part of book one.

the Director James Seda was in a (IIRC) Car accident 3 days after filming completed and died ... that and the leagal issues that stemmed from it 

23 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

 

That we have different takes on a scene kind of shows the whole how trustworthy is a 3000 year old book thing nicely.  ?

Also, real life English, He/Him is the gender neutral pronoun in the english language until recently when we as a whole society have made a conscious effort to shift to they/them as a singular vague instead of a plural.

So it's very possible for there to be translations that pull that into question.

and that ONLY Works if you de-gender souls that the weave spits out .... which is against Cannon of the world and really started this whole thing

and Rafe himself went as far as to say "we're doing it, we know it has ripple effects, and were going to continue to do it" 

take his statment - all the doubling down on Eg being the DR , everything about Female dragons and False Dragons, and now the inclusion of the possibility of Captain Dragon Reborn. 

no .... I see enough evidence easily .... as well as motive and intent

and NEVER undestimate the power of people being mad on twitter
make twitter mad = and Cancel culture comes for the WoT Series, and by extension Amazon

and as far as saying Nyn and Eg not being Ta'veran was a bone in the old days .... what do you think is happening now ? 
and we even have direct statements from Sanderson and Jordan saying - No they arent

Just now, Elder_Haman said:

It's going to look like Rand is the Dragon Reborn.

and you enrage the twitterverse
 

5 minutes ago, Skipp said:

23 minutes ago, Therese Sedai said:

 

 

Like many others I dislike the decision to make the Waygates activated by using the power. Although this is not important in the grand scheme of things. Just a small complaint.

 

 

 

no this has HUGE Ramifications ... if you recall the Waygates were how the Trollocs got to the two rivers ... and if they require a channeler to open then the same SHOULD be true for exiting the ways 
and we know Fades cannot channel - and the forsaken cant be in all places at once so we must have Hundreds of darkfriend channelers just on standby everywhere to open these gates .... then compount that with Machin Shin - or are they going to cut that as well (certainly doesnt seem that way with saying that the horses wont survive the ways)

1 minute ago, KakitaOCU said:

No, see, a mystery with an answer means that there's wrong answers.  It's not time wasted, it's time investing in the character.

Siuan said "the girl?"  referencing Nynaeve.

Look, if they do that dramatic a change I'll eat crow, but I see no reason to change who the DR actually is and have seen no real evidence that it'll change.

you believe its referencing Nyneave and while sure thats a logical conclusion - they also state shes too old 

I mean for gods sake do they even read the prophecys ?
Born of Ancient Blood Raised by the Old Blood - there are only 2 POTENTIAL Solutions to that equation, Rand and Nyneave and Nyn is too old ... however your already throwing out the Amount of He/Him References in the prophecys so why not throw that out too 

11 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Did we watch the same scene?

Moraine says every area has it's own version of what the Dragon should be.  Mentions one gleeman singing about a multi headed dragon.

Siuan says "The dragon as more than one person?"  Essentially blows it off as stupid, then asked which individual it is.  

Moraine says she doesn't know yet.  She was sure it can't be Nynaeve but her power makes her question.

They discuss the eye and when Moraine says she's going Siuan says it's death for the ones who aren't the Dragon.

Nothing in this scene suggests the Dragon is more than one person.

oh ya we did .... they have repeatedly doubled down time and time again on this type of thing from that when you look at the direction of the show  there is only 1 real direction they can go. Also with as much effort as they have put into it at this point the moment Eg is NOT the DR you have all that time wasted and you infuriate a certain segment of new watchers as well as enrage the twitterverse....

hell Even Suiane's 1st reaction "the girl ?" .... EVERY episode has had 1 or more references to Eg being the DR hows it going to look if they walk all that back 

got to thinking more about the TAR Scene - and no I dont think thats what it was ... TAR was always a place they entered when they were asleep .... she physically entered it ...the more I think about it the more  I think that was a Traveling Ter'angreal which is hugely problematic 
now IIRC there was someone who physically entered TAR  but I cannot remember who (Rand ?) 

no - the more I think about this episode the more my "give a **** button is broken" 
and Ive been stewing on the statment by Rafe about "Yes Rand is the DR" and I keep going back to what Moraine said in the show - The Truth you hear may not be the truth yo want to hear - and now I fully expect the DR to be at LEAST 2 different individuals - Rand and Eg, ... Probably all 4 .... 

I no longer have confidence that Rafe is trustworthy to handle this property
and quite Frankly I think he owes us some explination on why 

this episode actually angered me and Im about to tap myself
I liked seeing the tower politics at work
Suiane and Moraine as lovers .... meh - they could always be bi ... like someone else said "poor Thom and Gareth" I actually expected that to happen

4 headed Dragon because they keep saying Nyneave is to old - this will be the quickest way to turn book fans away FOR GOOD - and at this point ... ya .. I expect it
Waygate - What the Absolute **** SOOOOO MANY ISSUES WITH THIS
EotW is now the Location of the Bore - I dont have ANY FAITH that Rafe is competent enough to pull off the "Ishameal is messing with them" 
Leaving Mat outside the Waygate .... tbh if what dragonmount said is True I can deal - I dont like it ... but I can deal
 

to everyone saying fain will steal the dagger - Fain isnt even credited in episode 6 
so HIGHLY unlikely ... but plausible I suppose 

Mat will get partially healed for sure - 
Supposedly Egwane will meet Suian - not sure how I feel about this since novices aren't allowed to leave the tower
MAYBE a mention of Eladia and Elayne (though I doubt it they prolly want to hold that surprise for season 2 opener)
Aie Sedai Machinations a plenty
Group will arrive at, and POSSIBLY enter the Ways via the Waygate in Tar Valon (if they enter maybe a post credit of fain following them?)
more female dragon and female Ta'veran talk (BLECH) and unfortunately most likely confirmation that Egwane and /or Nyneave  is Ta'veran (picturing the Oprah Meme, and you get a ta'veran, and you get a ta'veran, ect...)---- I really Hope Im wrong on this one

Loial being Loial

more DR Misdirection (its getting old by now)

they say this was supposed to be the best one but Im questioning it .... I just don't see a lot happening in this one tbh - unless your all about Daes Dae'mar ,  I mean sure the acting could be stellar but I dont know

3 hours ago, Sabio said:

Wonder what episode Fain is coming back because all his spots he was to appear Berelon and Caemlyn are cut. I'm guessing that leaves Fal Dara and him getting caught sneaking in?

episode credits on imdb say 7 and 8

interesting note - the episode blurb for 7 is gone from IMDB today

the more I think about this ... and the more reader backlash you get ... I think you keep the capstone episodes (EoTW, Horn, Tear etc) as intact as humanly possible .... forsaken and all. 
really the answer to Halima is balefire him at EoTW

your already pushing the limits with these changes ... I dont think it will take much to push people over the edge