I haven't had a chance to post my in depth thoughts, I want to re-watch the episode before ep5 and will hopefully get a more fleshed out post in then. But I did mention nitpicks and I suppose one is a really petty one, and one is more a comment on the series as a whole: Josha's accent in the Lewin scene really took me out of it initially, as an Irish person I had a horrible feeling and was worried we would see some Harfoot-level nonsense like in Rings of Power. But thankfully, that entire sequence is written and acted so well that I got past the accent very quickly (Although I still just think - why? None of the other sequences gave them accents like that? It was strange to me). But more significantly, I mentioned in the build up to season three that I hoped for some interaction between the Aiel and Tuatha'an in order to really help Rhuidean "land", so to speak. We had one small scene where Rhuarc stayed behind to bury the "Lost Ones". We had a "previously on" reminder before the episode. But I feel like some of the significance was a little lost because we haven't had any time with the Tinkers since S1, and while a lot of work has been done this season to flesh out the Aiel, something just didn't land quite like it should have for me, with regards to the Way of the Leaf, ji-e'toh, the Jenn Aiel and the splits that occurred. Really this isn't a critism of the episode itself, as a standalone I think it's done an incredible job in getting across significant world-building and lore. More, were the crumbs laid out sufficiently, or enough importance given to them through the first 2 seasons, in order for Rhuidean to be elevated to an all-time piece of fantasy television? Unfortunately I don't think so, and while I finished the episode super happy and impressed with what they had achieved, part of me still felt quite a bit of sadness at what could have been if the show had been more consistent through the first 2 seasons. Like I say I will hopefully get a rewatch and post done on all the positives (of which there are many!!) before ep5 drops.

Wow. I will post more detailed thoughts another time but can I just say that it is quite amazing how much dense lore and worldbuilding they are able to get across in such a short timeframe. I have some complaints of course 😅 but I think as a standalone episode it is an incredible piece of work. bravo to Josha and the entire team on this

It's got to be Asmodean in my opinion. How else will Rand learn? I thought they might give Logain that role but he needs to be healed, and I think things are moving too slowly in that regard to get Rand where he needs to be. So really we are left with Asmodean. I think the thing with both Mesaana and Demandred is that the current Forsaken in the show can fulfill their roles. They don't do anything in particular that can't be taken on by another Forsaken for show purposes, which gives the current Forsaken more to do and makes them more of a threat (particularly Sammael). Whereas Asmodean's role is so specific, I struggle to see how the show replaces him.

Thanks for the replies - I think what confused me was "Where they came from centuries ago", it implied to me that Elayne already had this knowledge of where the Seanchan came from as opposed to figuring that out. But I may also be misremembering something from S2 and what they've learned about the Seanchan up to this point!

The Black Ajah murder spree is really the only thing I really really didn't like about this episode. It breaks a bit of immersion for me for the reasons Mailman says about it being such a public move imo. There are some other small things I took issue with, however I think this episode was the best so far this season. - I love Rhuarc and Bair! Such good casting and great character building moments so far. A good indicator of how quickly you can establish a character with small bits of dialogue and actions (Rhuarc burying the Lost Ones). - "That is Wise One's business" hahaha - Mat and the quarterstaff! I just wish there was a bit more of an audience to it. But it was really well choreographed, I think they are trying to establish that Mat was capable even before the memories issue, but he's definitely accessing something else now. One small thing, when he speaks the Old Tongue, I don't see any translations for it, is that the same for everyone else? It's a bit of a strange choice for the show if so in my opinion. - Faile! Great casting as well. I was surprised at Lord Luc's appearance, I for sure thought he would be cut. - Some Perrin ta'vereness going on with getting the Two Rivers folks to stay? - I have watched this episode twice and when Nynaeve and Elayne are figuring out Tanchico, before the Grey Man attack. Elayne says something like "Tanchico is next to Falme, where the Seanchan landed, where they came from centuries ago". What? Did I misunderstand her lines here? Because if not I have no idea what that's supposed to mean or how that helps them decide to go to Tanchico. - Suspicion being cast on Verin this early doesn't quite sit right with me but I suppose they do need to condense things, my girlfriend picked up on it right away and I've just said how really they can't trust anyone, so it's good to question everyone. - Rand and Lanfear in the Dream, I think they are really going down the love triangle route with Rand, Lanfear and Egwene and honestly I do not like it at all. I also didn't like that scene in general, but Natasha O'Keeffe really sells these scenes in fairness. Overall I think this season is very strong so far. There are choices made and bits that I haven't liked, but overall I'm much more positive about things than I was at this point of S2 for example. And from most reviews I believe this next episode is one of the best. I am nervous because Rhuidean is my favourite (and I know many people feel the same), but I hope they do it justice.

As mentioned I think the biggest issue is the Healing power creep. I appreciate the idea of Nynaeve being able to Heal the mind which could be a great arc, but I still have an issue with the lack of stakes so long as an Aes Sedai is nearby to Heal. The Grey Man on Nynaeve really was overboard. I am not too bothered about big displays of the power outside of the Healing, although Moiraine's display at the end of S2 just didn't work for me within the story (I really didn't enjoy the S2 finale and thought that power display was a bit weird and pointless). It doesn't bother me that she was able to do it. But I do agree that the apparent lack of fatigue is an issue for me as well. But I am willing to let this play out a little. Whereas with Healing I think they have established how powerful it is, so the show has given itself a problem I don't really see how they can fix at this point.

Not sure if he was in the intro but he's definitely mentioned later on by Gaebril to Elayne, right? Fwiw I agree that the cold open didn't sit quite right with me, not so much that Morgase made that decision but more how it was made - making them swear to her and "all is forgiven" etc. That felt too much like a villain twisting their moustache to me. I can understand in the context of a Succession War that those you defeat face death, but yeah, it felt like a "twist" that didn't need to be done in that way. It's sort of an example of things that have happened across the 3 seasons of the show where I feel like they've gone for something that doesn't particularly work for me, that feels sort of cheap and unearned. But, my book knowledge has spoiled me there as my partner loved the scene and was fully engaged with Morgase as a character for the entire episode. And she properly believes her when she threatens bringing an army to Tar Valon later in the episode. So in that respect, for establishing Morgase as a character for television - it worked. No doubt Olivia Williams helps in that respect! In terms of the compulsion, I understand the need to pick it apart, it does seem a little overpowered to me and if you start to think about how it functions like Mailman has pointed out (in terms of this guy appearing a month ago but he's apparently been around for 10 years), there are holes there. Was Bryne questioning things are suspicious/resistant to the Compulsion, is that part of why he had to go? How long does the compulsion last if the weave isn't tied off? Will we get a scene later in this season where Elayne mentions Gaebril to Nynaeve, who says she had never mentioned him once before? How detailed are these false memories? It's something I am willing to see play out a little before having a full judgement on it. But, as it stands I think it's overpowered. However I do agree with the post earlier in the thread that sometimes you need a bad guy to be able to something just as a function of being the bad guy. Rule of Cool and all that. I think they could have established it a bit better but at the same time I like all the scenes with Gaebril, and I liked the little hints that something is off with the pauses before Leane says his name, before Elayne greets him again etc. So as part of the show, it's probably worked - this is where I think the casting has helped the show get over some cracks. And again it establishes the Forsaken as capable and dangerous, and that they don't all have the same sort of skills - my partner is most definitely worried about them which is a nice change from the books at times.

completely agree and even from a show-only perspective, it adds to the "who is a DF' element - when evil people are revealed to just be evil and not tied to the Shadow, it adds a layer of complexity on character motivations and I think is rewarding for a show-only watcher. This world isn't simply good people versus the Dark One and his followers.

Merging those things make sense for television. I was a little worried they would merge Machin Shin and Mashadar as they are sort of similar "entities", and I could see it being a note from the studio that they are repetitive (even though we all know from the lore they are very much not the same). But bubbles of evil/Dreamshards is the sort of merging I can get behind and definitely adds something to the show in that they get a danger across for a TV audience without confusing things too much I think But I agree on the DO, I am hopeful for some indication of the DO's touch on the world in S3 because as enjoyable as the Forsaken have been so far, they are not the big bad!

So I enjoyed the episode for the most part. I didn't like it as much as some of the reactions I'm seeing - but I am really glad that so many have enjoyed it and that there seems to be such a buzz about it after one showing via the fan event! I think part of my issues with this opener really stem from the first 2 seasons and not having done enough work on certain characters, so some things feel a little rushed to me here. I am still worried in general for how the season will feel, will it be as jam packed as this? They have so much that they want to get through. I am just a bit apprehensive for how it will all land. But on the episode itself, first the things I loved: - Rand reading prophecies, with Loial! I wish we had one more scene like this before now. - Rand and the Maidens, Rand and the Aiel, deciding to go to the Waste etc., Rhuidean mention and Maiden handtalk! - More Rand in general! I'm starting to see Rand as a character in this episode, finally! - Egwene's trauma from the a'dam manifesting as it does in the show - I think this is a really interesting change and dynamic for her relationship with Rand that they have set up within the show. I don't like the love/relationship angle for Rand and Egwene generally but for the choice they have made for the show, I think this is a really interesting layer to that - The bubbles of evil! I actually loved that Lanfear was manipulating that, and her reaction to the Grey Man. There are a couple of elements to it that I liked, maybe some other book readers can verify but I am nearly sure there was a time in the books where Lanfear didn't know about another Forsaken meddling? Her reaction to realising that Moggy was involved felt like a callback to the books for me, if not specifically to Moggy meddling, then someone - that she was blindsided by it a little. - I also quite like that Moiraine and Lanfear "worked together". It felt very scheming to me, I don't know, maybe it's anathema for book-Moiraine but something about it worked on the show. Maybe it's because you have such brilliant actors in Rosamund Pike and Natasha O'Keefe in scene together that made me love it! - Rand and the mirrors was so good, kudos to the creators here, just loved everything about that scene. - I actually really like that Moghedien creates the Grey Man. I always felt it was an underutilised Shadowspawn, and I think because of the nature of it, it would almost be too easy in the books for the Dark One to just send loads of Grey Men to try and achieve their goals. At least with this limitation that only one of the Forsaken can create them, it makes a little more sense that it's a limited weapon. It also just adds to her as a character for the show, creep central! - Elayne is absolutely perfectly cast. I can't wait to see more of her as the season progresses. - Mat with the cards was a nice touch, I liked it and I like his motivation for staying in TV - loyalty to Nynaeve. Feels very like Book Mat to me. - In fact, I think there were a lot of small nods to the books in this episode which were really nicely done - Finally, I really like that there isn't a huge amount of discord between the EF5 at this point. I like that Perrin is going home and Rand knew before he said, and encourages him to do so. I like that they are still all friends here, that nobody is outright afraid of Rand as things stand. It feels more true to a lifelong friendship to me. Now, what I disliked... - I do think the show has a little bit of a problem with Healing. Yes, it's a fantasy show, yes there is magic and monsters and otherworldly feats etc. But I just do not believe the show when someone is stabbed through the chest with two swords, and gets up within a minute to fight some more. I do not believe the show when someone is hit with an axe to the gut, and stands up and keeps struggling along. I do not believe the show when a Shadow-made assassin stabs someone without any armour multiple times in the gut and chest, and they are up and alive in the next scene seemingly fine. It completely breaks any immersion for me, honestly. My partner is not a book reader and literally laughed when Liandrin was stabbed by the warders. And if we are to believe these moments and take them as they are, that Healing really can save people in this way - why should we care when anyone gets stabbed, ever? So long as there is someone capable of Healing nearby, no problem, let the Grey Man stab Rand in the heart 100 times! - I don't really like how they were all walking around Tar Valon, and as someone mentioned that Aiel are walking around in full Aiel dress etc. I know that the book norms have not been established with Tar Valon in the same way, but it felt wrong to me. The whole fear of the Aiel in the Wetlands from the books doesn't seem to hold true here. - Egwene's Accepted test... I wanted more and I hope to see more as the season progresses. Whether that is in her Dreamwalking or flashbacks, but it felt too fast for me. This sort of goes back to the start of my post, that rushed feeling. To me, Egwene's Accepted test deserves as much time as Nynaeve's got in S2. For the themes of the show and where she is going as a character, in fact perhaps she deserved more time than Nynaeve's. If that is all we get of it, I will be disappointed. - The action in general didn't really work for me in that cold open. I appreciate that many really enjoyed it but there's something about some of the slow-mo shots that I don't find engaging. But as a counter point, my partner was blown away by the amount of Black Ajah. She is constantly surprised when a Darkfriend reveal happens, it's great! I hope that doesn't come across as too whiny or critical, I did enjoy the episode and am excited for the next two to drop! I am definitely forgetting things from the episode too.

I think that would be enough, as long as the scenes have the punch required. They've shown an ability to get depth across in a short scene or two already, the Way of the Leaf was explained very well in S1 without much time spent on it for example. So it's definitely doable. I just hope we get a couple of scenes of Aiel and Tuatha'an interacting in the current time before we get to Rhuidean.

that's absolutely fair, I was very grump yesterday and seeing that post set me off a little 😅 oh I've no doubt Amazon are doing that, I know Daniel Greene talked about it after S1 aired and how they weren't happy that he wasn't lavishly praising the show or something along those lines. I think I just don't take creator content all that seriously for the most part - I just get annoyed when some critics of the show tell me I can't possibly be a true fan of WoT if I enjoy aspects of it or dare to try and talk or think about choices made. It's exhausting to see so much criticism of the show that stems from an assumption that Rafe and the creative team are making changes out of some sinister motivation to destroy RJ's work. like I say, I was grumpy making that post!

Something else I hope to see in S3 is more of the Tinkers. I personally think Rhuidean might not be as impactful if we do not have more time with the Tinkers as well as the Aiel (and their current day relationship with one another).

My post was not directed at you. It was directed at this comment: "There are thousands or even more posts about TSR being so bad that the writers of the show have to correct the countless faults of the novel and improve upon Jordan's abysmal planning and execution..." There are hundreds of reasons to dislike the show legitimately and with fair criticisms. Even if I don't agree with some of those criticisms, I can usually tell when the person is genuine versus the quote above. Hell, I don't even know if I would class myself as liking the show at this point (but am cautiously optimistic for S3). Unfortunately there are an awful lot of bad faith critics of the show who frankly, I can't believe have the energy to constantly invent new ways to hate Rafe Judkins.

Some of those who hate the show will invent as many ways as possible to further hate the show, and also hate on those who dare to give the show any credit, and insult those people as not real fans, because only they know what the books are truly about, what RJ would truly have wanted, and anyone who does not conform to their worldview is some woke Amazon shill whose sole mission in life is to destroy the books. They see ghosts and enemies everywhere, even in their dreams, and bring those imagined enemies with them in every discussion about WoT.