Lan was kind of boring in the first book.

He was immediately better from chapter one of TGH - in general there was a massive jump in the quality of RJ's writing from that point, but Lan was a clear beneficiary given he is so prominent in the first few chapters. That can in part be attributed to him having formed more of a bond with Rand, but I also think that in between the books RJ really sharpened his sense of who Lan was as a character.

The complaint about Lan seeming so comfortable and not-apart around other warders is interesting: I agree with it to the extent that it would not have been how I would have imagined Lan interacting with other warders, but on the other hand I'm struggling to recall any scenes prior to Moiraine's departure where we did see him interact (or, more to the point, not interact) with other warders in any substantive way? The only time I can think of offhand is when Moiraine and Lan stay with Vandene and Adelas, and even then there's not enough shown to draw conclusions I think?

Notionally, the idea that he would be more relaxed around other warders is not obviously inconsistent with the books. It feels different to his book-character, definitely, but it doesn't seem to me like a change that clearly contradicts the books.

If there was a decision I would question about Lan, it is not Nynaeve sneaking up on him, but rather making him solely responsible for the decision to go to Shadar Logoth - and then suggesting that Moiraine would never have made that decision if she had been conscious.
 

It reminded me of the LOTR films where instead of Gandalf wanting to go through Moria and Aragorn resisting it, they switched the roles. I think this undercut the drama of Gandalf’s fall, and played against type for Aragorn. 
 

I didn’t mind the equivalent as much here, but it felt much more like a decision Moiraine would have made than Lan. 
 

I think if it were up to me, I would avoid making Elaida end up so ridiculous and incompetent by the end. It was unnecessary, and I think slightly overdone by BS in TGS especially - and just made the AS as an organisation look even worse than they needed to given they failed to do anything about a leader who was so obviously useless.

15 minutes ago, Theseus78 said:

A lot of the "but that may change this other thing" response I had was alleviated by this:

They know, they care, they are trying to figure out if changes will change the story arc and the character cores.  We may disagree with their choices, but they're not arbitrary. 

Yep. I've seen suggestions that "most people working on the show probably haven't read the books", and while I think that is probably literally correct and I also doubt the entire writing team has read the books, I suspect that most of them have read at least the first few, and that on any given episode there would be at least some people writing or overseeing the script (including Rafe obviously) who have a sense of how major changes would impact the plot.

The role of Sarah isn't to be the only person in the room with a good understanding of the books' overall plot, but to be the person in the room who reliably remembers all the tiny details and how they fit together, which Jordan's microscopic-encyclopaedic approach to plotting has made considerably more difficult than it would be for almost any other series of books (the archetypal example for me is the farmer who briefly appears in TEOTW and then pops up again at the beginning of The Gathering Storm - Jordan loved little easter eggs like this).

Where things can get more subtle is at the directing/acting stage. I imagine that many of the episode directors may not have read the books and are relying on the scripts - i.e. the same situation as probably most of the actors. This then can leave open space for smaller changes that are noticeable to book fans but the makers may not have even realised would constitute deviations: the way that an aes sedai gestures, how characters physically relate to one another, a small bit of seemingly successful ad-libbed dialogue etc. 

The work done to leave open that Moiraine and Lan are sleeping together might be a good example of this: the writers might have had in mind one particular implication (e.g. that Nynaeve is worried they might be sleeping together but what is shown of their interactions tends to suggest otherwise) but in the hands of the directors and actors this might end up slightly different (e.g. more or less clear that this is not the case).

16 minutes ago, Kudzu said:

 

I disagree, for me it's fun to look at what they've done and see if it can be fit into existing law. It's not purely in an attempt to defend the show.

Yes, I feel the same way - it’s not that I want to claim that the show has not made mistakes, but rather that is is more enjoyable to speculate on how/why something might not be a mistake. 
 

Dismissing something as an error or immediately concluding that the writers just didn’t have regard to something may well be correct, but it’s also by definition the end of the thought process - though to be clear I am not suggesting people ought not draw those conclusions! Just explaining why I tend not to unless there’s no other reasonable option.

Sarah Nakamura’s original tweet also referred to Logain shielding his eyes from debris (which I do remember seeing go everywhere). Which makes sense even if the light the viewer saw was invisible to him.
 

In general, use of the power in the show seems to have a more explosive quality than in the books. I don’t mean that in the sense of being exciting - rather in that something like Nynaeve healing people (which was clearly at the uncontrolled end of things, given she inadvertently healed everyone) sends debris flying as well. 

All good, my first post definitely could have been clearer, and apologies for my snippy reaction.

(In response to Dead Warder)
 

I think the show should maintain that saidin and saidar are different. I just think it would be pointless for the show to stop every five seconds and explain that e.g. men cannot link without women when it is not important to the plot. 
 

It would be the equivalent of including  a detailed discussion of the customs of Arafel. Interesting, but a waste of valuable time.

Attribute whatever nefarious motivations to me that you like. but if there’s a good reason for Logain to be nearly as strong as Rand and a good reason for Nynaeve to not be anywhere near as strong as Rand, it should be explicable through reasoned argument rather than just attacking me.

Why is Logain being stronger than any female channeller ever necessary to him being a successful false dragon, or him leading a counter faction in the black tower?

Why is men being generally stronger than women necessary in order for Rand to be unable to be taught by women?

One series I would compare aspects of WOT to, and which I could imagine being a successful TV adaptation, is the Empire series by Janny Wurts and Raymond Feist - kind of an offshoot of his Riftwar novels but (I think) better written and more appropriate for adaptation. Basically if WOT was only the game of houses and with magic playing a much lesser role.

One thing that I quite liked about episode 4 was the thoughtfulness of the different Aes Sedai archetypes we were presented with:

- We know Moraine - mysterious and secretive and driven, but "we" (tv viewers without the benefit of the books) are inclined to believe that she wants the best for the world and (so long as they don't get in her way) the people in it.

- Liandrin - Ruthless, unscrupulous, ideological, possibly evil but that remains TBC.

- Karene - Decent, straightforward, respectful of authority and the rule of law, and a natural leader herself.

- Alanna - Funny and charming and warm, but also perhaps layered and not to be trusted entirely (this would be consistent with the books). I tend to think that one of the purposes of the cat conversation with Moiraine was to convey a subtle threat (I remember more about your novice days than you might think) under cover of warmth, which nicely hints at a future complexity of character still be drawn out.

This got me thinking about one of the challenges the show will have, which is to capture the richness of the Aes Sedai world, its diversity and its subtlety, without drowning viewers in an unending onslaught of barely differentiated characters. For budgetary and time reasons alone they will want to heavily reduce the number of distinct aes sedai characters, but I think there is also value in hitting upon a sweet spot where viewers can understand the character-richness of this aspect of the story while not being overwhelmed by it.

Which leads to my questions:

1. Which Aes Sedai do you think will make the cut? And why?
2. Are there any prominent Aes Sedai you think won't make the cut? And why?

3. Are there any particular favourites you'd particularly like to see?
4. Are there any characters you'd merge together?

Pretty much agree with the emerging consensus. I'd say that it's not so much that I like a lot of the changes compared to the books (although the Lan / Nynaeve interactions are definitely improved) as that I think that many of them are likely to work out better in a TV context than a more literally-faithful but still compressed adaptation would have.

Thinking about Perrin, one of the things that was odd about the first few books was that he seemed way more cut up about learning he could talk to wolves than Rand was about learning he could channel. This is despite the fact that, until he meets Noam in the third book, Perrin has no specific reason to think that being able to talk to wolves will end in tragedy, whereas Rand has very good reason to think that he will go mad and die. At best, Perrin can point to his relative loss of control with the whitecloaks in TEOTW. But if you weren't in Perrin's head, this being some grievous sin would seem a bit odd in light of everything else that happens. 

I do wish it hadn't been his wife he killed, but I like how this "original sin" backstory sets up Perrin to interpret all of his future perceived errors in a similar light. 

So far, Aram and Mat are the two characters who (for me) are clearly outperforming their book equivalents. It gives me hope that Aram's plot climax (if the show ever gets that far) will be more interesting than in the books - there, it was an underwhelming plot device made worse by the fact that he had never been particularly interesting in the first place.

Do we really expect TV show viewers to keep track of the various differences between saidar and saidin anyway? Especially given (until the black tower) there is basically no opportunity for men to link even if they can, there's really no reason to maintain the distinction at all. There's a strong incentive to reduce the differences between saidar and saidin which has absolutely nothing to do with girl power, and everything to do with not force-feeding tv viewers with lore that doesn't really matter or make a difference to any version of the story that they would be able to fit into eight seasons.

It's possible that Logain was intended to be a mirror of Demandred but that's not where AMOL took him. He's not even a mirror of Taim. Literally nothing important turns on him being nearly as strong as Rand. And it's not like RJ had devoted much attention to him in the pre-BS books.

I find it interesting that so many people complain that the show making Nynaeve (possibly) seem almost as strong as Rand takes away from the specialness of Rand's story, but presumably those same people don't find it odd that RJ made Logain nearly as strong as Rand even though he seemingly couldn't be bothered to give him a decent storyline.

To be clear, my theory is not that Thom thinks Rand is the DR due to his hair - I'm just pointing out that there's no way of confidently extrapolating from the books on this point - but rather that he might think Rand or Mat can channel, regardless of how he makes the point to Rand.

Actually, no. In the books Thom would know this prophecy as well as if not better than Moiraine, given he regularly has to perform the Karaethon Cycle by heart. The Karaethon Cycle says both the line I quoted and that the DR shall be "born of a maiden wedded to no man".

However we currently have no idea whether the Karaethon Cycle is even a thing in the show, let alone a thing Thom knows, let alone a thing containing the same contents, let alone something Thom could accurately decipher.

So in summary, Thom may or may not have an inkling that Rand is the DR - WAFO!
 

11 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Wow. Is this the origin of your "Thom was lying about Owyn = Matt" theory? Incredible. I don't believe it, but, incredible!

Not the origin, but I did wonder if they might have Thom understand more of the significance of red hair on a non-Aiel then they have let on (or than he seemed to understand in the books). 

In honesty what prompted me to think Thom might be thinking Rand can channel is that the whole conversation between them reminded me of a conversation I had when I was a teenager and in the closet (i.e. I knew I was gay but I had not told anyone). 

In conversation with me, a friend raised the fact of someone else being gay and said they weren't bothered about it and also had an uncle who was gay - and later admitted to me that it was their way of letting me know they were fine with me being gay without explicitly putting the proposition to me so as to not put me on the spot.

I tend to think the whole "who is the DR?" angle has been well done so far. Obviously if you've read the books you know who it is (and there really, really is no way that this will change - so far the show has been broadly faithful to each main character's in-book arc with the exception of Perrin having a wife, which was ahem dispensed with in the first episode), and given the show has to date left the prospects wide open, I don't really buy that new audiences will feel betrayed when the answer is revealed. Why would they? It's certainly rather less of a bait-and-switch than such book plot developments as:

I think the reveal will come reasonably proximate to Min declaring that they all (all the EF5) matter - i.e. we will learn that Rand is the DR, while at the same time understanding that story will remain an ensemble story even if Rand is structurally at the head.

Incidentally, I think Dana declaring in episode 3 that she sees all 5 of them in her dreams was in part a nod to the deleted scene of Min telling Rand in Baerlon that "she's [Nynaeve] part of it too" - Mat interprets it as a reference to the DR (and episode 4 makes a lot of hay from that), and it is in part (Dana certainly frames it that way) but it can carry the additional meaning of the ongoing importance of the entire EF5 throughout the series.

I think the prophecy was that the DR would be born of the ancient blood and raised by the old blood - meaning the Aiel and the descendants of Manetheren, respectively. I don't think Moiraine knew what that meant in the books (or not at first), and it would be surprising for Thom to understand it - but it's notionally possible either that in the show the prophecy will give another more explicit hint regarding Aiel heritage, or that Thom could have put two and two together once he saw Rand's hair and heard Dana say one of them is the dragon.

I agree that Liandrin's character has changed from the books. In the books, all of the black ajah we meet early on are presented as pretty one-dimensional in their evil, and then the picture is gradually blurred over the course of the books, culminating in one character in particular who seems to have joined the black ajah for fairly prosaic, human reasons: 

I think Liandrin will ultimately prove rather more evil than that, but I like that she is presented as more complex and human than in the books.

Although I do not share AusLeviathan's negativity, I agree that it seems likely that the show will make Nynaeve a more powerful channeler than Logain, and perhaps the second most powerful light-side channeler after Rand.

Good!

RJ's power differential versus linking ability approach was perhaps the most ham-fisted of the gender separation ideas in the books (men have more strength but women can work together is like if someone's main problem with men are from mars, women are from venus was that it was too nuanced), and the idea that they would make it possible for women to be the dragon but not junk that is bizarre to me. 

As it stands, in the books none of the light-side female channelers who are stronger than Nynaeve end up mattering very much (with Alivia's plot being a deliberate fake-out), and probably won't even appear in the show. So Nynaeve will likely be the strongest female channeler perhaps give or take one or two of the forsaken. Moreover, her character also heals gentling/stealing, learns how to heal taint madness, helps Rand to cleanse saidin and is one of the two aes sedai who Rand takes with him into shayol ghul. All of those character developments suggest that the should be the strongest light-side channeler after Rand. The fact that this wasn't the case is really only because of RJ's gender split. Nothing important in the plot turns on it otherwise - it's not like Logain does anything particularly amazing later on, other than give up on his plan to find a sa'angrael and rescue people instead (i.e. his "glory" derives from rejecting an association of strength with greatness).

I don't see how any of that is inconsistent with the show later presenting Rand as the strongest light-side channeler by several orders of magnitude (which is consistent with everything the show has said so far about the DR, including what Moiraine says to Logain).

2 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Thom compared Matt to Owyn, his nephew channeler. And equally telling Thom said to Rand, "We should keep him away from those women." (Meaning the Aes Sedai.) Also, the fact that Thom said that to Rand, implies that the warning does not apply to Rand.  Thom's conclusion of course in not correct, and I believe contrived to forward the misdirecton as to the identity of the DR.

Obviously that is what Thom said to Mat. I'm suggesting that Thom may not actually be entirely truthful here.

As to Logain appearing to steal Rand's veins of gold speech? He can't, because Tam already did in episode one. Tam said explicitly to Rand that he thinks we come back so that we can do better next time. It's so explicit that it immediately led me to think that if they ever get to veins of gold we'll get a flashback to Tam saying that.

Logain makes the slightly different point that the voices are telling him how to be a better dragon. I think Moiraine is understandably dismissive, because it sounds vainglorious: I am the dragon, and I have voices inside my head telling me how to be the best dragon ever. It reminds me of how Ingtar convinces himself in TGH that he is able to sound the horn for his own salvation - but it's other people's salvation that matters. Similarly, Rand's epiphany on dragonmount would have been a lot cheaper if his existential crisis had been limited to his own specific issues as dragon reborn (also, notably, while Rand was mad, LTT was distinctly unhelpful in terms of teaching him how to do the whole dragon thing better).

Wow getting through all of the last few hours of argumentative posts just so I could post an opinion on episode 4 has been challenging! I was worried the thread would get locked just as I got here (this has happened to me twice in the last fortnight).

Really enjoyed this episode. I don't see it as a material step-change improvement but a continuation of a broader upward trajectory. The deviations from the book now feel natural rather than jarring, which is the spirit in which I take the "different turning of the wheel" line from Sanderson.

I'm gonna post opinions in spurts so I don't miss and inadvertently cut across fifty new posts.

FIRST, and maybe I am alone on this, but I did not conclude that Thom is convinced Mat can channel. I think it's just as likely that he was worried that one or other of them might be able to channel and actually suspects it's Rand. It's possible that he even knows one of them might be the dragon (it's implied he overheard a lot of what Dana said to them). He spends a lot of time talking about how Owyn lied to him and didn't tell him he could channel. If he thought Rand might be able to channel, a good way to have a conversation with him about it would be through misdirection - "we need to protect Mat from the Aes Sedai" becomes an acceptable way of saying "if you can channel then we need to protect you from the Aes Sedai" without forcing the issue. 

I think the audience is meant to conclude that Thom thinks Mat can channel (less likely that Mat can channel - I think the hinting that his issues are something else are too clear to ignore even for a non-bookreader). But this possibly sets up a great scene later on where Rand meets Thom again and is like "It's not Mat who channel, it's me." And Thom is like, "I know, lad, I know."

Watching again, Rand confronting Moiraine actually seemed well done to me, and probably about as good a compression of the various similar scenes from early in the book as they could reasonably achieve.
 

I think if we had seen Rand more from other POVs in the first few books this is almost exactly how he would have come across - I always remember the scene in TGH where Verin is counselling Rand on how to present as a lord and she says something like “if you’re as arrogant as you were when you met the Amyrlin then they’ll believe you’re a lord even if you turn up in rags”. Rand’s own POV in the scene meeting the Amyrlin doesn’t explicitly support that - but that’s mostly because he is not a totally reliable narrator with respect to his own demeanour and how it comes across to others (the other scene that really underscores this point is when Rand meets Mat in Lord of Chaos, and Mat thinks he seems totally crazy).
 

Same with Egwene - she asks Moiraine “are you going to kill us like you killed the ferryman”, but then is persuaded by Moiraine’s response. This is very on-brand for Egwene - never shy about questioning authority but also more inclined to accept it if given a sound basis to - but just compressed into a single scene.

Same with Mat: “I agree with you but the lady does shoot fireballs” is very much something Mat would say. It also at least hinted at a baseline for his character against which his descent into nihilism and paranoia in subsequent episodes can be measured.

So far, I think the show is doing a slightly better job at capturing these character dynamics than the LOTR films did, though for both the challenge is/was essentially the same: how do you compress these character dynamic developments into a short period of time and also make them explicit to the audience without internal monologues, without making the end result unbelievable. 

That’s the quote I remember - that the wheel cycles between no bore, a bore and a patched bore.

I don’t remember a quote from RJ that there is also a cycle of saidin being tainted and then untainted, and that the tainting of saidin is always an integral factor to whether the bore can be properly sealed (it would also seem odd to me for the DO to continue with the same saidin-tainting tactic each time, notwithstanding that apparently he doesn’t really learn from past mistakes). I’m not saying such a quote doesn't exist - just that I don’t remember it.

I had always assumed that the fight between the DO and the Dragon must always require a bore of some type, and its sealing (or patching), but that apart from that the specifics of what happens each time weren’t pre-ordained or required to repeat exactly.