52 minutes ago, Borderlander said:

I'll say it again: Moiraine thinks the Dragon Reborn could be a girl. 

The fact that Moiraine searched the Dragon for 20 years in the first place because of a Foretelling by Gitara Morosso. Either, the TV show must remove this foretelling or Moiraine somehow missed the "seven" male pronouns... she wasn't listening very well.  ?

"He is born again! I feel him! The Dragon takes his first breath on the slopes of Dragonmount! He is coming! He is coming! Light help us! Light help the world! He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder! He burns like the sun!"

39 minutes ago, BlueOx said:

I was just curious whether their northeastern border is unclaimed territory or if it's technically Altara now. 

RJ was using the map loosely. We need to read the map like in the olden days where national borders weren't so clear cut. That's why they had border disputes. 

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There's the question of male Aiel channelers, who will need to be trained and find a purpose within their clans in a way that they never have before.

In short terms, male Aiel channelers will be more like Wise Ones instead of societies, imo. The book pretty much state that there will be changes to Aiel culture, including Wise Ones. The primary role of Wise Ones was the survival of Aiel. I don't see how Aiel Wise Ones will not utilize the BT to train Aiel male channelers considering their role as the Guardians of the Dragon's Peace. Just like female channelers were split into Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Windfinders, and suldam/damane, I am sure male channelers will be split similar except Seanchan. The male adam does not work like the female version, so Seanchan will not be able to have male channelers.

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And with male channelers untainted and free in the Westlands, we should see channelers' numbers overall start to climb again as they're not culled from the genepool. Unless the Seanchan (1) start training sul'dam to channel and (2) reverse course on how they deal with male channelers--and quickly--there will be way more channelers on one side than the other.

Unless, Seanchan can somehow modify exist male a'dam to prevent bidirectional control, I don't see how Seanchan can safely control male channelers. Seanchan from One Power is in a bad state if they continue the suldam/damane.

Just going by what is written in the book, you need to assume that the Dragon's Peace will stand. I think in Aviendha's vision, Rand never switched bodies. The reason is that their children never knew Rand which is unlikely considering Rand's char. Rand does seem to have a very strange power at the end. How powerful that power is unknown.

Another is that we know that the Aiel future changed. They are much more aware that they need to be more unified as a nation to be Guardians. The clan separations most likely will not continue for their role. More like a lose federation of states like US.

Just now, Deadsy said:

most of the prophecies in the books do not mention gender.

No mention of gender?

Karaethon Cycle/The Prophesy of the Dragon:

And he who shall be born of the Dawn, born of the Maiden, according to Prophecy,
he shall stretch forth his hands to catch the Shadow,

All Glory be to the Creator, and to the Light, and to he who shall be born again. May the Light save us from him.

Yet one shall be born to face the Shadow,
born once more as he was born before,

That's just a small excerpt. It goes on and on with the world "he". You might want to actually read the prophesy before making a claim like that. Moiraine and Aes Sedai will look really stupid when even the Shadow uses a gender specific language.

One of the Prophesies of the Shadow:

"The man who channels stands alone. He gives his friends for sacrifice. Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying, one to life eternal. Which will he choose? Which will he choose?

"Ze/They Who Comes With The Dawn".

"Pick whichever ter'angreal you identify as in Rhuidean" -Amys, Bair, Melaine, and.. that other Dreamwalker I forgot.

4 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

 

 

I haven’t seen evidence that a lot of lore is being destroyed.

 

I think your other concern is more important. I hope they keep the humor and get it right. 

I think it's more disrespectful to think women can't see through this little condescending gesture of the female empowerment.

Well here are some issues that need to be addressed as they deviate to the female dragon. I am just stating facts.

• If the show keeps the saidin as tainted, then does the female dragon channel saidin? 
  • If so, how often do female Aes Sedai channel saidin?
  • Do male channelers using saidar as well sometimes?
  • Do female Aes Sedai channeling saidin go mad?
• All prophesis now must reflect a gender neutral language or Moiraine will seem really stupid
• Does Red Ajah now hunt both male and female channelers?
• The female Dragon sounds too much like Arangar who was depicted as hyper sexual predator... not exactly a good example of trans to be honest.
• If this is the ONLY case where a female can channel saidin, then how will Aes Sedai even know that this was the only case?
• How do Aes Sedai justify female membership and leadership since there can be female saidin channelers? 

I think the show tried to be inclusive, but ended up giving troubles than worth. You can certainly approach at different angles to empower women without making an obvious token female dragon possibility.

Also, Moiraine/Wise Ones/Sea Folk/Seanchan are going to look really really stupid if all prophesies are not changed to more gender neutral language.  "He Who Comes With The Dawn" will be changed to "A Person Who Comes with The Dawn" or "Ze/They Who Comes With The Dawn".  Whatever the right pronoun is... can't keep up now days.

3 hours ago, Dedicated said:

This is exactly why I want there to be a God. survival of the fittest is fine for animals, but I like to think of myself and humanity as having greater potential than this. We're the first creatures that we know of with the ability to shape our environment in such a way that it shapes our future evolution and we seem to be trending towards a collectivist society with individuality dying. We need to care more about our philosophy and really live by our beliefs because it is the beliefs we live by that will determine the shape of our future. 

Two incidents that forced me to rethink about the objective morals were Friedrich Nietzsche struggle and the Nuremberg Trial after WW2.

Nietzsche who argued for "ubermensche/superman" where the humanity escapes  from Christian values as collectives and into more individual moral values that each person create to rise above (to put it simply). He had the vision/dream of a better humanity, but how we get there was the issue he wasn't able to give details. One of his struggles was when he served as a medical orderly in a war, he felt sympathy and pain for soldiers in hospitals. He thought he should be a superman that he preached about and rise above this basic human emotion for greater causes/goods, but he couldn't. He also felt alive as a human being as he valued the health and lives of these young soldiers. He desperately wanted to deny the objective morality of God, but he couldn't find any ways to achieve the superman without it.

After the WW2, the Nuremburg trial wasn't going well. Herman Goering was actually beating prosecutors Jackson and Fyfe. He argued what right and authority do Allies have to try him when he was a German. He was arguing that what he did what was good of Germans. Prosecutors finally was able to sway by calling his actions "crimes against the humanity". They were calling for something transcends national laws to higher laws. There are more details, but it's something for us to think about.

Bernard of Clairvaux once said "the hell is filled with good intentions and wishes". What he was saying is that each individual "believes" he is acting out of good intentions, however, many times, the result is good for him only or bring dire consequences that others need to pay for. The subjectivity morality is not sustainable in communal living because each of us ultimately look self good.

The problem is not that we don't believe in the objective morality. We just don't want to believe in the objective authority behind the morality. Do we trust the Man or God to have that authority?

10 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Yea... apparently you missed the easter egg bout Lenn, and how he flew to the moon in the belly of an eagle made of fire.... Or the various other modern references which place WoT in an alternate reality/universe after our timeline.

 

Yet... you missed that within RJ's world, Arthurian mythology is based on Rand. ? 

Are you bit on the slow side? You do know that my original response was to people complaining how despicable that Robert Jordan incorporated corporal punishments in his WoT world building? They were saying how it doesn't make sense or people don't behave that way.  I don't think you are even understanding the original issue.

33 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

The wheel of time is not set in our reality, and specifically not our past.
You do... understand that right?

 

You know that RJ created his world based on pre-gunpowder real world, right? He borrowed from many different cultures to create his Wheel of Time world. In fact, most fantasy books borrow heavily from ancient worlds to create their own world.

I don't understand why people can't understand this aspect of fantasy world. RJ incorporated heavily from the Arthurian Legend... he even said it himself.  He didn't borrow from modern America to create Westland... you know that right?

Just now, WalterKohl said:

Have you read the books?  What makes you say this setting is in some ancient time?   Even if this was purposefully reset into this universe by Rafe (no evidence of that) it would still be set in the LAST age, well after us...  Heck even Lew's Therin would be in our (2021) far future!

DID YOU read the books? RJ even said himself that he created many cultures based on inspirations from the real world before the renaissance period. Seanchan has elements of Roman and Abyssian/Ethiopian Empire. Andor is pretty much the British empire. Cairhien has French, Japanese, and some other flavors. Shara has some Chinese Empire and Mogul/Indian empires.

Before I get into anything, personally I think the Dragon's Peace was Sanderson's lamest excuse and nearly ruined the series.

Yes, Ghealdan is a bit isolated. It was a weak nation and will stay as a weak nation with powerful allies. With their own treaty, if Seanchan attack Ghealdan, Two Rivers, Andor, Cairhien, Saldaea, and Mayene must help. These nations can call upon Aiel as well.

In a fantasy world like WoT, we just need to make believe that the Dragon's Peace will be enforced by the Aiel. Whether Aiel will actually fight Seanchan is debatable, but they have given their word, so we need to. In the Dragon's Peace, all nations agreed to give aid if Aiel ask for it. This wasn't there in Aviendha's vision.. only Andor gave aid and reluctantly.

We can deduce from few inferences that the main reason that Aiel lost to Seanchan because there was no directions. After the Last Battle, clans went their own ways since Rand is dead and Aiel had no clear directions and purposes. Most likely, Aiel warriors continue to suffer bleakness... and raided each others again. It was just Taardad who fought at the start in Aviendha's vision, so one by one, Aiel clans got swallowed up by Seanchan. 

Considering that Nakomi was present with Aviendha and Rand, we need to assume that the author wanted readers know that Aviendha's vision changed. With Aiel clans acting as a cohesive nations, they are no pushovers. Each Aiel Clan has like 500+ channelers. 

If you look at the map, there are many unsettled land. Most likely most Aiel will have moved to the Westland since they are part of the Westland now. I am sure that Ghealdan is safe if Seanchan invades.

4 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

It's a post-apoc setting, that is similar to the renaissance, not a retelling of western european history.
 

You think some Middle Eastern, Native Americans, Asians, or any kingdoms in the 12th to 16th century had anything similar to modern "time-outs" or "we treasure your feelings"? I am not quite sure why people expect some ridiculous scenarios from ancient world settings where people used to raid each other for basic necessities. THE WORLD WAS BRUTAL EVERYWHERE before the industrial revolution.

Ottoman Empire's Fratricide is the basis for Seanchan royalty killing for the heir position. They were killing their own brothers and sisters... even children in the Ottoman Empire's royalty. Not exactly, your "the communication is the key to harmonious society" way of life.

4 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

I get that a lot of people are offended by the spanking and humiliation bits, but it actually kinda fits, doesn’t it? How does an order of the most powerful women in the world, some of whom are hundreds of years old, most effectively punish its members? Punish them as you would a child.

Well, most people who criticize like spanking are viewing from the narrow modern Western world. That's fine for personal views, but don't expect an author who is basing his fantasy world on medieval to renaissance periods to suddenly have modern "time outs" or "emotional therapy sessions". Who will actually believe this world creation?

A novice, Cindy, in the Tower channeled without permissions. Karen Sedai asked Cindy to stay behind so they can discuss this infraction.

Karen Sedai asks Cindy "One Power can be dangerous to yourself and others, so if you don't mind, may I ask you to not channel unless there are supervising Aes Sedai?"

Cindy replies "you are impinging on my personal liberty."

Karen Sedai sighs "would you like to talk to Lilith Sedai, our novice welcoming counselor?"

Cindy narrows her eyes "I am reporting you to Amyrlin for violating my safe space."

Karen sighs "I am sorry Cindy, I will need to consult with your parents. I will prepare a message to be sent via pigeons. You may want to write your own version. They will be here in about a month since they live about 1000 miles away?"

I am not sure how many will believe that this will be a fantasy world of dangers and intrigues...

18 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

From a purely penological standpoint, obtaining sexual favors by means of threat or extortion has been defined as rape for much longer than the last 30 years. In fact, sex that is

is defined as rape and has been since well before Eye of the World was published. (See California Penal Code section 261).

 

That's California law and RJ didn't live in California. The definition of rape linked below was changed in 2012 the US Justice Dept. I am promoting Tylin's behavior. However, the definition of rape to include men is a recent change in the United States. In fact, most countries in the world do not hold to the US definitions.

If you want to retroactively believe to be rape, then that's fine. However, I don't think we should be approach from revisionist history in reading someone else's work. Shakespeare's work and Jane Austen novels... they all portray messages from each writer's perspective. I find it ludicrous for people to deny the original intent instead of just disagree with the past's morality. Leave the work as is.. we don't need anymore revisionism.

https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/blog/updated-definition-rape

 “Forcible rape” had been defined by the UCR SRS as “the carnal knowledge of a female, forcibly and against her will.”  That definition, unchanged since 1927, was outdated and narrow. It only included forcible male penile penetration of a female vagina. The new definition is:

“The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.” 

On 10/25/2021 at 5:28 AM, Dedicated said:

To be fair my belief in an absolute, objective Truth being dependent on the existence of God (my definition/conception of God) is really just me giving this "Entity" authority to define it because I do not believe that I or anyone else is capable of doing so. So it's kind of a copout.

Most people interchange "free will" with the "autonomy" and confuse themselves. The word "autonomy" means self-law (auto=self, nomas=law). Basically, it means that I make my own laws and don't want deal with consequences either. The free will is where you exercise you will within boundaries of both body and mind, and willingness to take responsibilities.

The basis of the authority in Christianity/Judaism/Islam is the Creator just like the Wheel of Time. It's his universe, so he sets laws. You make not like it, so you want exercise your autonomy and that's the story of Adam and Eve. They want to "be like God" and determine what is good and evil for themselves. God gave them this free will, but did give them autonomy because Adam and Eve must live together. They don't want laws that God created (that's the meaning the "let them be light means".. light=illuminations), so they want to create their own laws. The problem is that Adam and Eve are not gods, they are humans... if Adam and Eve both wanted autonomy there wouldn't be Cain (evil), Abel (good), Seth (hope), and numerous other children (continuation).  ?

In any communal living, the autonomy is detrimental. In fact, no humans can live and exercise the autonomy. All human beings live with both physical and mental limitations. 

If you don't want to there to be God/Creator, then it's the survival of the fittest. The might makes good.

9 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

I really hope you are talking about Mat only and do not think like that of men in general. And just because Mat has a strong libido does not mean he should want every woman no matter the circumstances.

Didn't I say Mat? This will be true to many 20 year old young men who aren't married or promised to anyone. They would have struggled just like Mat. RJ is not making Mat to be some holy saint in the book. 

Look at examples given in the book. Mat thinks Elayne is pretty, but he knows his bounds. However, there are times he is playing his flirtatious games without considerations for those women. That's the point RJ is making.

7 hours ago, Kalessin said:

It's the principle I apply to the Question of Mat and Tylin ... coercion is coercion ...

The life is complex and simplistic blanket statements like "coercion is coercion" do not help illuminate the issue. That sounds all holier than thou, that's really insulting to women. To claim that a sexual predator coerced a woman and the woman was unable to make intelligent and discerning rejection is truly insulting to women. That's clearly a different case than an adult male who raped a woman on the Philly train and she was physically unable to fend him off. 

While you can make some statement about losing jobs or supporting the family, but still a choice. Some choices may bear higher consequences, but the first woman had a choice to walk away. The second woman has no choice at all. That's what the law and definition of rape is. It's a horrifying experience for a woman to have no choice at all and physically unable to resist.

This is written in WoT regarding Mat:

• Mat is a 20 year old man and we all know how strong the libido is at that age
• Mat is one of the deadliest warriors in the world... he could have taken away Tylin's knife away if he really wanted to.
• While Mat likes to initiate flirtations, he pretty much limits to kisses and pinching
• Mat thinks he is being harmless, but in reality he is causing great distress on many women who are looking for husbands. He is toying with their emotions... really hurting them as human beings.
• Mat while disclaiming to be a farmer , but in reality, he is a powerful and highly successful attractive young man. He associates with nobles. He acts like a noble. Even most nobles bow to him.
• Mat like other Emond's Field (EF) heroes have little respect for the Kings and Queens. Basically, you can't make the case that he folded because Tylin is a queen. We have always seen that he don't give a crap if a king or queen goes against his beliefs like other EF heroes.

Mat loves being the "conqueror". He loves battles because he loves being the conqueror. His only complaint afterward with Tylin is that he wasn't the one who "chased" her. Why did Mat have sex with Tylin? He is a 20 year old young man with an attractive 40 year old grinding on him. He won't be able to resist his sexual urges.

What RJ and Harriet wrote was to teach Mat regarding "sexual harassment"... not RAPE. While Mat is a hero, he has some dark sides. He does not see harms he is causing to some women. Look at Aludra. He really hurt his feelings. In the book series, many women innkeepers are wary of Mat's behavior. Setalle Anan talk to him about this behavior.

It's important to read author's intentions. You can of course disagree because the series was written like 30 years ago with different definitions of rape.

4 hours ago, Dedicated said:

It's always been interesting to me that there is never a point when the Creator speaks to any of the characters,

The Creator speaks twice in this book. The first time was in the Eye of the World. The second time is in the "aMoL" right as they enter the Pit of Doom. Both in the presence of his champion who is the Dragon.

This series utilize the theme "The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again." RJ loves to play truth or myth games. For example, most people will read the Portal Stone flicker flicker and interpret that as Rand experiencing different lives. Is it really? Each experience ends with "I have won again, Lews Therin". Where does this inner voice that sound like Ishamael come from? Did he really live or was it a trap set by Ishamael? It can even be mix of both. Half truths and half lies. 

This book series uses heavy foreshadowing and prophesies. It's hard to get away from pre-determination in the "prophesied Chosen One" genre. It implies some omnipotent or near ominipotent being in control directing world events.

Current TV audiences are much more into grim dark, morally gray, traumatic backgrounds, and anti-hero stances. If Mat's background is changed to something abusive, then most likely to cater toward attracting modern viewers.

The book does not describe how the link is established between a Fae and Trollocs. It's somewhat similar to Aes Sedai and Warder bond considering that if a Fade dies, all linked Trollocs die.

The series somewhat contradicts about Trollocs. In early interviews, RJ said there are female Trollocs indicating that they give births. Later, RJ said Trollocs are constructs and that's why they can't go through Travel gateways without dying.

I don't think RJ ever wanted to elaborate on Trollocs/Fade ecology. They just breed fast and exists. In reality, how they can even exist such large numbers in the Blight where there are nothing to eat is highly illogical.  Just one of those we just need to accept.

It has nothing to do with Moiraine's action or her Rhuidean vision.

One of the things that many readers forget is that Rand is following and fulfilling the Prophesy of the Dragon. In TSR and FoH, Rand is intensely studying the Prophesy because it's the instruction left by ancient Aes Sedai to him. One of the passage says "The unstained tower, broken, bends knee to the forgotten sign". He knows that he needs to fulfill this prophesy intentionally or unintentionally. Aes Sedai is just a small part of the fulfillment of this prophesy and Jendai Prophesy of "The White Tower shall be broken by his name, and Aes Sedai shall kneel to wash his feet and dry them with their hair"

Rand is a ta'veren. The Pattern will not allow him to deviate from fulfilling all Prophesies, Min's Viewings or Aelfinn answers. Sooner or later, whether knowingly or unknowingly, he will fulfill all prophesies. 

In LoC before his capture

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“Anyway, even Reds might end following me. They know the Prophecies as well as anybody else. ‘The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign.’ Written before there was a White Tower, but what else could ‘the unstained tower’ be? And the forgotten sign? My banner, Egwene, with the ancient symbol of Aes Sedai.”

12 minutes ago, Dedicated said:

Would you agree that the struggle between the Creator and the DO is like a super complex game of Chess with multiple Chess boards and the Creator has already made all of his moves while the DO makes his moves according to how the DO perceives the progress of the game?

 

Basically to me it seem like the Creator sets up all the pieces, imbues certain pieces with certain advantages and ultimately sets the fate of the battle between Good and Evil on the will of those special pieces. 

RJ used various religions and myths to create the Wheel of Time. Although he wanted to make sure that not one religion is over emphasized, RJ being a Christian and the fact that the Western Culture had 1,700 years of Christian influences, you cannot avoid an American author writing in English to not have Abrahamic religious views. Look at twelve clans of Aiel, Sea Folk, and others. Seven seals is straight out of the Book of Revelation. Aes Sedai means "servants"... just like Christians are to be servants. He used these high level concepts.

In the Eastern religions and philosophies, both good/light and evil/dark coexisted eternally (Yin and Yang). Basically, good and evil coexisted as separate entities. In Abrahamic religions, there is only one Creator/God and he created all as good. That means that the evil is not a separate entity, but an absence of good. Think of it as the light and darkness. The darkness is not a separate concrete existence, but nothing more than absence of light. Using this concept, the Creator/God has the ultimate power and there is no struggle between God and Satan. The struggle is between the humanity and Satan. More specifically, the humanity's free will to do good or evil vs Satan. 

RJ used more Abrahamic religion creationism mixed with Hinduism's reincarnation. The book introduced the Wheel that weaves the Great Pattern. It's a foreordained or predestined results just like the Abrahamic religion of the Creator's absolutism. The struggle is never between the Creator and Shaitan (Hebrew and Arabic name for Satan) because the Creator has created the Wheel that can offset anything Shaitan can do. The struggle is between the humanity and Shaitan.

Even RJ said that the Dark One can never win in the Wheel of Time. Even if the Dragon turned and fought for the Shadow, the Dark One cannot win or escape. It's just the draw and the Wheel will take next steps to restore balance which RJ never clarified.

The reason is because the Dark One is not a creator. If you look at agents of the Dark One, they are all part of the Pattern. 13 Forsaken were not created by the Dark One because he cannot create. He can only corrupt already created beings which means that all lives are dictated by the failsafe system that the Wheel weaved out to the Great Pattern. Rand follows the Light Prophesies and Ishamael follows the Dark Prophesies. Both Light and Dark Prophesies are part of the Great Pattern. 

I don't want to make it too long, so not sure if I am able to explain clearly. I hope I didn't confuse too much. 

They know about Rand's parents for several reasons. Many Wise Ones lived with both of them and know what they look like. Rand favor Tigraine. Amys recognized him immediately because she is a Taardad clan Wise One.

Also, some Wise Ones are dreamers. They had dream visions of him long before.  The moment that Tigraine's talked about Maidens fighting in the Shining Wall, Wise Ones said that the fulfillment of the Aiel Prophesy is near.

On 1/19/2021 at 6:40 PM, loudbeak said:

I think Nynaeve is arguably the second most important character in the series, here's why:

Obviously, Rand being the main char is the most important, but it's really hard to rank the second. She certainly is popular (I really love her char), but chars like Perrin, Mat, and Egwene have their moments as well. 

From how the severing is healed and the emphasis put on male and female complementarian relationship, most likely Damer Flinn can restore her to the full power.

Nynaeve described as something being bridged. Her bridging not complete because a female channeler completed the bridge. Damer Flinn's bridge is the completed version when it is performed on female channelers, so make sense that Leane's connection strengthened the weaker bridge.

The book series repeatedly emphasized that male and female channelers need to work in complementarian relationship. This emphasis indicates that the male can significantly improve the female and vice versa.

On 10/23/2021 at 10:15 AM, Skipp said:

 

The books ARE more about balance than good versus evil.  The ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai is a Ying-Yang symbol. 

You seriously missed the point of the book series. The Pattern is about the balance, not the book series. The book series is about the good triumphing over evil.  

Because of the human free will, there is the normal evil that balances with the good the Creator created is one of the major premises. The Dark One who is outside the Pattern increases evil upsetting the balance between good and evil. The Dragon's job is to seal up the Dark One who is upsetting the normal balance between the good and evil in the world.