16 hours ago, templar7 said:

Having said that; I do think certain aspects of the overall plot could be tricky. eg. the love triangle will definitely need to be curtailed to some extent. But nitpicking every nuance that rubs someone the wrong way will end in disaster.

well, those relationship never felt particularly genuine, except perhaps with min, but that's mostly RJ not being good at writing relationship.

but to make it acceptable, i think it would be sufficient to expand Myrelle's role and visibility. So now you'd have a poliamorous relationship of a guy with three women and another one of a woman with three guys, nobody could say there is no equality

drawing conclusions from a few different looks and a dialogue line that may or may not be in contect is reading too much into it. there are certainly a hundred different possibilities to explain things satisfactorily.

then again, we don't have much hard facts right now, so rampant speculations, taking small details and reading too much into it, is all we have.

and that said, i admit i am mildly worried about those visual changes. not because they are important, or because they necessarily mean anything - they probably don't.

but why didn't they use the exhisting concept art? especially if the aforementioned art was already approved by Robert Jordan himself? I really can't figure it out. they spent a sizeable chunk of money to get people to design the sword and the dagger, when there were perfectly good replicas available, and I can't figure out any reason for it.

thinking about it, i'm more puzzled that worried. even if they actually wanted to pull the show in a completely different direction, there would still be no reason i can see to not use preexhisting official replicas

the question then is, they are spending a fair chink of money into designing those items. what is the advantage over using the exhisting ones? and "fits better the imagery" seems a weak one, i can't see how the slight differences on the sword would even be noticed, much less would make an actual impact on show sales

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

Agreed. Nynaeve would be a great Amyrlin. She might be a tough person to be friends with, but she is a born leader whose motives are all about protecting. Cadsuane is going to be a transitional Amyrlin and will probably focus on steering Egwene's reforms and helping to finish repairing the rifts between the Ajahs. And I think she's likely to get bored and step down.

can you step down from amyrlin, though?

i mean, sure, you can certainly be enough of a nuisance to all the ajahs that you are deposed, but if tower law does not allow turning down the amyrlin, i see it unlikely it has provisions for resigning. and getting deposed often entails being stilled, being made a servant, or other kinds of accessory punishments

well, if the hall decides to summon someone as next amyrlin, the appointed person cannot refuse. they tried to raise cadsuane, and she had to go in hiding for a decade. So, whether or not nynaeve wants to be amyrlin does not matter.

as for whether she would be a good amyrlin, no, she wouldn't, I agree with harldin there. then again, it would be far from the first time the hall picks someone totally unsuitable to the job (cough cough elaida. even egwene and siuan turned out to be competent by accident)

in fact, a common strategy when the hall is deadlocked is to raise a supposedly weak, incompetent amyrlin, so that everyone then can try to manipulate her. I can totally see the hall specifically raising nynaeve in the hope that she will stay away and will let them run things. not very likely, but worse things happened in the hall, as a demonstration that 10-20 years of training from hell does not exhempt people from being dumbasses. especially when politics are involved.

anyway, this is going offtopic. the original argument is whether robert jordan actually knew how to untangle the jumbled mess of a plot he created.

29 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Besides the Outrigger series RJ said he planned three Prequel books.  One involving Tam and finding Rand another about what lead Moiraine to the Two Rivers.  I forgot what the third was going to be about.

i think the third was new spring, which he actually wrote. unless i missed and he was planning more.

Quote

Since Lan and Nyn will rebuild Maliker, it's unlikely she would ever be the Amrylin.  With her angry bully style of leadership I think she would be a disaster as Amrylin.

i fail to see how she would be all that different from other amyrlins ?

So, i've read many fans complaining about small problems in the last three books. and while the general consensus is that sanderson did a good job in front of incredible difficulties, ultimately the only person qualified to finishing wot was robert jordan himself.

However, i considered a few things that are making me doubt that. namely, regarding whether robert jordan himself would have done a good job finishing the wot.

it starts from game of thrones. now, i'm not a follower there, so all i hear is third-hand accounts, but JRRM hasn't written any new book in... what, 8 years? and apparently he started many times, but he always scrapped it all. the tv show tried to give it a satisfying ending, and failed miserably.  from what i understand, the problem with JRRM is that he basically wrote himself in a corner, where he can't come up with some satisfying resolutions for some plots while having the characters stay true to their characterization.

i'm wondering if jordan had the same problem. in the last few books, his writing pace slowed down. he promised he'd tie all the remaining plots in book 12, but we know that was impossible. he left a lot of notes for finishing the saga, but those notes were largely incomplete in many ways. sure, there were lots of things he had in mind, but he wasn't really sure on how to do them, how to get all the right characters in position for the next big scene. iirc, he left nothing with padan fain.

I wonder, did RJ also fell victim of his own kudzu plot? when you create something so intricate, sometimes not even the original author is adequately qualified to finish it. and perhaps if he had lived we'd be all complaining on how the conclusion wasn't fully satisfying...

45 minutes ago, mistborn82 said:

The dialogue and picture or whatever, I haven't seen it yet could be from two different places and argument is pointless.

i was just coming in to post that. in trailers they mix scenes and audios from all over the place to tell a shortened narration of the movie's incipit. i don't see why they couldn't have done the same here.

that short sentence is certainly too shaky ground to draw any hard conclusion about changes to plots and characters.

A good actor can impersonate the character, bring it to life. A good actor is someone who can stay there with a plastic armor and a towel on their back wiggling around his hands, and instead of being embarassed he'll be able to take himself seriously enough to convince you that he's actually doing magic.

and the best actor is not always the one who most closely resembles the character's description. between an actor that most looks like rand and an actor that can pretend really well he's rand, they rightly pick the second.

so, i will wait to see them in action before deciding anything

also, make up and hair styles make a lot of difference.

speaking of mat's character, he had very little characterization in the first two books, and most of it negative. he was the irresponsible guy that got everyone in trouble, and he got cursed with the dagger. he spends the first half of the first book making troubles, the second half being corrupted (which also makes trouble) and the second book being sick. he starts shining from book 3.

I would not be surprised if the show changed stuff to make him more symphatetic from the beginning

rand controlled directly cahirien, tear and illian. Mayene was strongly allied with rand, so we may add this too. ghealdan was technically controlled by rand as their ruler swore to perrin, but it was in anarchy between the prophet and the shaido, so i wouldn't count it.

arad doman was in civil war. andor was in civil war, though they pretended it wasn't one. the borderlands were looking for rand.

the remaining nations of tarabon, amador and ebou dar were controlled by the seanchan

yes, this is exactly what i'm hoping to see: something that's good enough to suspend disbelief.

people jumping over shield walls to engage, or masses charging each other disorderly while their leader is acclaimed as a military genius, just won't do.

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

Hate to do the "well actually" but "group" doesn't have to be a shared culture/values in this context.

Males who can channel in Aiel Society are sent to the north to Die fighting shadowspawn.
Shara, Men who can channel are breeding stock before being executed.

Seanchan, Men are executed.
Seafolk, men are drowned.

Westlands, they are gentled/executed/suicided.

 

"Everyone" knows what happens to a male that can channel in those societies. It's not that much different then being the only Gay man in small town America 1830s. There was no "Group", or "Shared culture" but they were definitely prosecuted.

 

being the only gay man in a small town america 1830 does not doom you to certain death from taint sickness within a couple years, possibly after killing everyone nearby. male channelers could certainly be shown more compassion for a condition that does not depend on them, but besides that, i frankly have no idea how they could have been treated differently. And i don't think the question has ever been addressed in the whole 14 books, except perhaps in a bit of conversation between pevara and androl where it's mostly avoided.

it's like in a zombie movie when a guy gets bitten. his friends are then going to kill him, but i wouldn't call it oppression.

furthermore, being gay is part of one's identity. being black shouldn't really be, skin color should not matter except for needing sunscreen lotion in summer, but it becomes part of an identity when you and your kin are marginalized because of it.

but those are all things that develop with time.

I just don't see how being unwittingly able to channel can have a similar impact. for the vast majority of men, at first it is something you reject, because you know what's going to happen. then you die before you really have much time to think about it. you don't even get persecuted, really. Getting persecuted, the slow abuse over time, builds an identity; male channelers are simply killed then and there. knowing from a young age that you must hide or get killed also builds an identity, but a male channeler does not experience even that. a male channeler does not know he is a male channeler, and when he does know, he dies shortly thereafter.

shouldn't it be more like being the only terminally ill person in a small town america 1830?

there is one point where i agree about power dynamics, and that's aes sedai being snubbed. they have been the most powerful group for 3000 years, and have been using that to bully everyone. most aes sedai were extremely abusive of everyone*. and it's actually good to see them humbled. but it has nothing to do with them being women, or with the ashamen being men, or with the ashamen being purported victims of oppression.

* though perhaps they also should be seen as victims of the way they were raised. the white tower training is perfect for creating sociopaths and other unbalanced people

17 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

 

Well people read that scene differently. To me it has always read as repressed men finally asserting their domination over women after years of being repressed shunned gentled and in Rand's case caged.  "kneel or be knelt" and the sheer carnage described and that contextual element of the scene I just don't think work in the view of the gender dynamic that Rafe will want to portray. Maybe they keep it for shock value but Dumai's wells has never set well with me, it just feels super misogynistic to me. I know most don't agree as it seems to be many people's favorite scene. 

that seems putting too much undertext on the whole thing. it's just a battle scene. why does everything have to be some kind of political statement?

it's a 4 way battle between groups of people struggling to capture or free rand. the group curbstomping everyone else then asserts themselves as the new major power in the land.

I even disagree with reding "man who can channel" as an oppressed group: there is no oppressed group, because there is no group. there's no channeling men culture, or identity. there's never been a group of channeling men before in the third age.

4 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Producers & Investors are dedicated to selling a product for consumption. They'll put shows in front of test audiences to see how they like it. "Real" Battle strategies, aren't exciting to the mass population. They're exciting to historical battle nerds.

Showing something like this, isn't very exciting on the screen.
 

Seeing a bunch of elves jump over a shield wall, is exciting.
Seeing people cleave people in two, is exciting even though it's not practical.
Seeing form-fitting suits is exciting, even though it's not the most practical.

 

The vast majority of Audiences prefer exciting action over "reality".

which is exactly why i'm worried. it's not much a matter of realism, but of being so nonsensical as to become cringeworthy.

still, there is some hope there, because a key trait of mat is his battle skill, and they need to show it somehow. can you imagine that plot if they keep up with hollywood tactics?

Bashere: "soldiers! charge!

soldiers charge in a disorderly mess at the masses of trollocs, get slaughtered

Lan: "the shadow has corrupted our generals! doom is upon us!"

Elayne: "mat, your ter'angreal makes you immune to compulsion, right? you're in command of the army"

Mat: "Ok, then. Soldiers! Charge!"

soldiers charge in a disorderly mess at the masses of trollocs exactly like before

Galgan: "this man is a military genius!"

Fortuona: "he is, isn't he?"

?‍♂️?‍♂️?‍♂️

furthermore, i am surethey can make battle strategy exciting if presented in the proper light. Netflix made the queen's gambit where they managed to make chess exciting to the masses, and i would have never believed it possible. if it's possible to make chess exciting to a mass of people who has no idea what's happening on a chessboard, then it's possible to make anything exciting.

Finally, even if you try to spectacularize stuff, i'm sure there can be a compromise without hurting the brain of anyone watching the battle with a bit of common sense. In ten seconds they can show a quick panoramic with the warious forces arrayed in neat formations and a general ordering platoon 13 to move forward and relieve the 9th chivalry, and then go back to showing people  being cleaven in two and Lan showing off his ludicrous swordsmanship

10 hours ago, mistborn82 said:

For the amount of money they're spending, one would hope they have military historians on the payroll.

the witcher also had a lot of money, but they screwed up military real bad. it's the only part of that show i didn't like. i didn't watch game of thrones, but i'm told battles also were rendered very poorly there.

for some reason, movies seem extremely reticent to show real military strategy

i am most worried about battle strategy, as the vast majority of movies get it awfully wrong.

battles in movies are mostly the kind ordering charge, then the mass of soldiers run disorderly against each other, and the battle focuses on many individual duels. formations? coordinations? what's this? even when they are used, they are grossly misused (see the infamous scene in the hobbit with the elves jumping over a shield wall, defying the entire purpose of the shield wall itself)

it doesn't help that most people in hollywood are against war. guys, you are also against killing, yet you have no problems depicting them correctly in a movie.

so i hope, among all the many advisors, rafe also hires someone well versed in medieval warfare, and listens to their suggestions

i, for one, am glad there's no trailer for the superbowl. first, i would have a hard time imagining much overlapping between superbowl audience and wot audience. but most important, if that 30 seconds ad is worth 5 million dollars - and i have a hard time conceiving any single 30 seconds ad, no matter how many people it reaches, increase revenues by 5 millions to justify its placement - that would be 5% of the whole budget. and i'd rather have them spend 5% of the budget to improve the show than for a single 5 seconds advertising.

that said, a trailer at this general time would have been nice.

i expect they have to pick up some scenes left from spring outdoors, because the covid pandemics closed everything at the beginning of spring, and they restarted production in late summer/early fall, stopping again in late fall. so, it would make most sense for them to pick up a few scenes that they needed to shoot in april/may to show a spring landscape.

and if i recall correctly, they said season 2 is already greenlit. so, if i were them, i would take the chance to also start filming for season 2 while there.

utlimately, we knew already they were missing very little of principal photography, and we knew already they are mostly done. and we expect that they should be ready to launch soon enough, but may choose to delay for marketing strategies.

this news doesn't really add anything solid to that.

4 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

But then who would Faile rage at Perrin for being nice to?

well, more seriously, I think they will strongly tone down Faile. Just like in the witcher tv show they made Jennefer much less of a jerk than she was in the books, probably to make her more acceptable to the public - because really, the way she was in the book, i have no idea how Geralt can still be in love with her - so I think they will also make a lot of the good characters more nice in this tv adaptation.

And Faile is first there, because her behavior towards Perrin is straight out abusive, especially at first.

they could merge faile and berelain

ducks

no, the thing makes more sense than it looks. both are capable leaders. both chase perrin. both are good fighters. they are often in the same scene.

failelain would be the ruler of mayene. she would meet perrin in tear. after all, she met him halfway through the third book but she spent the whole time doing nothing. there she offers support to rand. then she goes with perrin, taking faile's role. she trains perrin in leadership with a skill that comes from being a ruler, and she has no connection to the bashiere couple. that connection was only used a handful of times anyway.

there is only one little problem with merging faile and berelain. diehard fans would definitely storm the studios and kill anyone involved

two easy explanations: first, in the visions, tuon had hairs. that makes a lot of difference towards recognizing a person.

second, rand did never get a chance to get close to semirhage. as he got close, cadsuane disrupted the illusion. it is possible that he would have recognized "tuon" if he had remained there to talk a few minutes

well, money at least means they are serious about it. they are not trying to make a cheap project in the hopes of catering to the fans that are going to watch it anyway, and then pull out with a net gain. they can still fail, but at least they will try.

i'm also wondering how much adherence to the books will actually pay off. here we are, fans of the books all ready to catch if thom is ten years younger or if tam's sword has the wrong quillons. but if they spend big money on this project they are hoping for a big audience, and this means most of them won't be familiar with the books. the success or failure of the wot tv series will actually be built not on the book fans, but on the reception of the general public.

in two days it will be wot wednesday again. if we'll see some more release, then a release early next year will be likely. if we don't see anything this wednesday, and the next one, it will be a reason for pessimism

she probably believed it, or close enough. i don't think she'd have gone rogue with the shaido otherwise.

rand appeared in the waste with 2 aes sedai (as far as the aiel knew). aes sedai have strange knowledge, so assuming that rand was instructed by aes sedai was not a stretch.

as for couladin, maybe she assumes he lied to everyone to avoid spreading the secret of rhuidean. or maybe she had doubts on couladin too, but just couldn't follow rand.

"It would have been a trilogy if the good guys could have brought themselves to talk to and understand each other"