I get the importance of Mat kicking Galad and Gawyn's asses is important for Mat's story. But there's no reason it has to be Galad and Gawyn. He can kick the crap out of any "blademaster" type.

Of the two, Galad's story is definitely the better written. I'd lose Gawn altogether and actually play up the tension between Galad wanting to find his mother and being in love with Egwene. 

Galad can leave the Tower to return home to Morgase. Gaebril poisons Galad against the Tower and convinces Morgase to send him off to find Elayne (probably hoping he will die). The rest plays out like the book.

Gawyn can be replaced by "leader of bad guy Warders #1" and "reformed Warder I now trust" for the rest of the show.

16 minutes ago, mistborn82 said:

As for the 2nd appearance of Morgase, I think you drop that entirely as it really goes nowhere. 

I disagree. Morgase negotiates the peace between Perrin and the Whitecloaks. 

I used to think about it the same way you do. The last time I went through the series, I focused on her story. It's pretty compelling and does have a payoff.

I'd understand if they cut it though.

When goofing around with my own amateur adaptation, the Trakand clan always seems to present the most difficult problems. From when to introduce Elayne to whether to keep Morgase to how to eliminate Gawyn (kidding!), the Trakands always seem to present problems. Here are a few guesses about how things might play out for our favorite royal Andorans:

• Maria Doyle Kennedy is Morgase. [UPDATED]

This is just a guess based on casting information that we have right now. Most speculation about Kennedy's role has focused on Siuan, Elaida, Verin, and even Cadsuane. I propose another possibility: Morgase Trakand. With Keira Chansa being cast as a young Siuan, Kennedy is likely not going to be Siuan. Verin is also an unlikely role as it seems doubtful to me that the Hunt for the Horn will leave from Fal Dara prior to Season 2.

While Doyle-Kennedy would be excellent as Elaida, she would make an equally good Morgase with acting chops worth investing in over the long term. Morgase's story arc is underappreciated in my opinion - Doyle-Kennedy could really bring weight and depth to the character.

[UPDATE] Maria Doyle Kennedy has been announced as Ila the Tinker. So if you're counting I'm 0-1 on my official predictions. 

• Elayne Won't Appear in Season One

First - no casting announcement. That's a fairly big clue. Unless Amazon is trying to hide a "big name", there would be no reason to keep this information secret.

Second - like I've argued about Min in other posts - Elayne's introduction in the book, while memorable (it is one of my personal favorite scenes from the whole series), is too fleeting to be worth filming. And for pacing purposes, it makes more sense to have the focus be on Rand's encounters with Logain and Elaida. 

Third - keeping her introduction back will add some anticipation for season two. Egwene's arrival at the Tower is a perfect place to bring her into the story.

• Daryl McCormack is Gawyn (or Galad) (or Tallanvor) (or Galawynvor)

There is some discussion of McCormack as Aram. That would make sense too. 

It would also make too much sense to get rid of or combine some of these characters. I personally loathe Gawyn and find him the least likable character in the series. Losing him entirely would make loads of sense. Galad's arc could remain the same. And as I mentioned earlier, I feel like the Morgase-Tallanvor-Lini-Lamgwin-Basil story line is underappreciated. McCormack seems like a great choice for either Galad or Tallanvor. 

What do y'all think?

3 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

 

It's another city for them to produce and it is really expensive. All of these things can be done on the road. Nynaeve would catch up with them in Caemlyn. I would be psyched to see Baerlon but it seems so logical to cut it

Baerlon is a location that you can film by shooting your Emond's Field set from different angles. In addition to using some existing Czech country and architecture, they might need one set and a few CGI shots. I don't think it is prohibitively expensive.

15 hours ago, mistborn82 said:

We need Baerlon for the stag and lion I believe where the boys end up line dancing with their scary authority figures.

Fain will probably get adjusted a great deal too as some mystery is good but I think a limited explanation for Mordeth will be invented. For how crucial Shadar Logoth is to the series, we never get an explanation beyond Mordeth is a different evil, unless there's more in the BWB or the other one.

Baerlon also sets up the Whitecloaks and the fact that Fain is chasing them. It's 100% critical. 

I think they will condense all of Mat and Rand's encounters with darkfriends on the Camelyn Road into one interaction with "the Grinwells" who will all turn out to be darkfriends. This will take the place of Howal Gode and the girl in the stable. 

After they escape, they'll make it straight to Camelyn. 

4 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

 

I think they are skipping Baerlon and going from Camelyn to Tar Valon directly

No way. Too fast.

Episode 1:

Beginning (Gitara's foretelling) - flight from Emond's field.

Episode 2:

Taren ferry to the flight from Baerlon.

Episode 3:

Shadar Logoth and Fain's backstory

Episode 4: 

Rand and Mat's journey to Camelyn

Perrin and Egwene meet Elyas and the Tinkers

Introduction to Logain (his capture)

Episode 5:

Rand and Logain's meeting in Camelyn; Elaida meets Rand

Egwene & Perrin captured

Episode 6:

Moiraine gathers the party, they flee through the Ways

Episode 7:

The Eye

Episode 8:

Arrival in Fal Dara; meeting with Siuan

Fain's escape.

13 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

We learn quite a bit about her, actually.  We learn more about her abilities, and how they've always driven a wedge between herself and those around her.  We learn how much she dislikes them, and how much of a sacrifice it is for her to be in a city full of Aes Sedai and Warders, where she can't escape her powers.  We learn how much she hates sitting around and doing nothing, and hates how much her talents are being wasted by the Amrylin, who doesn't seem to really believe in them.  We learn lots of little things about her character: her wit, her underlying femininity in spite of wearing boy's clothes, her loyalty to her friends, her maturity that rivals or exceeds Nynaeve's in being able to overcome Galad's good looks, and her faith in the Pattern.  And some things that set up interesting subversions later on, like her distaste for the Seanchan practice of keeping slaves and actually leashing damane.

 

If she replaces Hurin, she's not a major part of the plot.  Hurin doesn't get any development apart from Rand.  In fact, he doesn't get any at all.  He's a sycophant to Rand who's learning to deal with people being sycophantically loyal to him for the first time.  Hurin's not necessary to the plot because he tracks the Horn.  That's literally the least important thing about him.  That could be replaced by ta'veren; every time Rand feels like he's losing the trail, he could close his eyes, jump in the air and spin about, and just go in the direction he's pointing.  It could be replaced by Loial having an innate sense of prior violence and evil, which would be consistent with Ogier disliking violence and their role as peacekeepers in the Age of Legends.  It could be replaced by Selene showing up with some ter'angreal to help them find their way out.  Hurin's necessary to the plot because he sucks up to Rand constantly, in spite of being told not to, calling him "Lord Rand," bowing and knuckling his forehead and taking his least suggestion as a command, and Rand learning to deal with that despite his feeling like he's not worthy of that kind of devotion.  That's not a role Min should take up.  It would definitely make her a mere appendage to Rand from that point on, rather than being her own character, with her own reasons for pursuing Rand and loving him.

All valid points. Still like my idea, but that's the beauty of literature - it truly is subjective.

12 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

But you're mistaking Min's relationship with the audience as a character, with Min's relationship with Rand.  We only meet Min once in The Eye of the World, that's true, but she shows up again almost immediately in The Great Hunt.  She's at Tar Valon, where she goes after the inn at Baerlon gets burned down, because that's where she understands Moiraine to be taking Rand and the rest of them.  There, she hooks up with Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne, and goes off with them on their misadventures to Falme.  The audience gets a lot of time with her to find out who she is, and what she can do, way before there's any kind of relationship with Rand, other than the foreknowledge that there will be one. 

What does Min actually do while she's with Nynaeve, Elayne and Egwene? What do you really learn about her? She's captured by the Seanchan and (I guess) serves as the conduit through which Nynaeve rescues Egwene.

But what do you learn about Min during that whole episode? Not much. And being that she's not physically with any of the other main characters during that time, she exists only as a side character.

23 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

 With your change, she doesn't go to Tar Valon and hang with the Wonder Girls, and we don't learn who she is apart from Rand.  She becomes a mere appendage to Rand's journey, instead of her own character.  

As a stand in for Hurin, she is necessary to the plot and actively engaged in it. I'm not sure how that makes her a "mere appendage to Rand". Honestly, it's exactly the opposite. As written, she's an appendage to "the Wonder Girls" (lol, love that) the entire time they're in Falme.

29 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

If anything, what Min needs is a few standalone scenes of her journey from Baerlon to Tar Valon, if only anything interesting happened to her, which it didn't.  What she doesn't need is more time with Rand.

Just because she's near Rand, doesn't mean she has to be with Rand. But she does need screen time. 

At any rate, it will be interesting to see what they choose to do. It's a fun topic and you make some interesting points.

2 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

I disagree that they need to move Rand's relationship with Min forward, earlier on.  Min's relationship with Rand is, by the end of the series, the most well developed and natural of any of the Three.  She spends an order of magnitude more time with him than Aviendha or especially Elayne.

That's not exactly what I mean. I don't want to move their relationship forward. I don't really want to change the arc much at all. But I want to introduce Min to viewers unfamiliar with the book in a way where they can get to know her as a character rather than have her pop up once in season 1 and then not again until near the end of season 2.

7 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

Thematically, the Eye of the World introduces the characters and sets the stage for their future development.  But none of the characters, barring Nynaeve, and her only barely, undergo any real growth or change.  Things happen to them, or are revealed about them, but none of them have a chance to do anything about them yet, or use them to grow as people.  Perrin gets revealed to be a wolf brother.  Mat steals the ruby-hilted dagger, which gives him holes in his memory to be filled in later by the Eelfinn.  And Rand is ultimately revealed to be a male channeller, and to the audience at least, the Dragon Reborn.  But none of their characters really have a chance to deal with those events and revelations or grow from any of those things happening to them.  The boys, at the end of tEotW, are the same hay-haired farmboys they were at the beginning, just with some new problems to deal with.  The real character growth, and the real story of team Dragon Reborn, doesn't begin until The Great Hunt.  For Mat, it doesn't even really begin until The Dragon Reborn.

I agree 100%. But I also think that if this is going to be a successful show, the focus has to be on the characters, not the plot. Which means the first season is about learning who these folks are by seeing how they react to a bunch of really horrible situations. So in that sense, season one is about the Emond's fielders finding their agency in the world. They learn to act on the world instead of having it act on them.

12 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

And that's fine.  TEotW is effectively a giant prologue to the whole story, unsurprising out of an author who loves his lengthy prologues.  It introduces us to the core of who these characters are, so we can get used to them and care about the development that comes later.  Adding in a new and developing romance during that period muddies those waters.  Now, Rand is changing and growing as a person, before we even got a chance to know who he really is yet.

Right. This is actually my exact point. The trip to Baerlon is going to get a scene or maybe two - even at the most deliberate pace. There will be a chance for a few lines of dialogue between Rand and Min at best. What point does she serve here? And why spend the valuable screen time introducing her when it could be better spent elsewhere?

17 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

I think the early stages of Min's relationship with Rand as it is in the books is fine.  Rand's attracted to her, but she scares the hell out of him and basically chases him off with a demonstration of her unique ability.  I reckon the only change that needs to be made there is that Min's viewing that she will fall in love with Rand, and that they will become lovers needs to be made more explicit; make us privy to her whispered conversations with Moiraine or something.  And that the infallibility of Min's viewings need to be made more explicit earlier on as well.  They could even throw in Moiraine and Thom's future marriage as a somewhat vague viewing, so it seems a little less out-of-the-blue later on. 

This is a good example of why this is so complicated. To do what you suggest, the tv show will have to establish in this scene both (1) that Min has viewings; and (2) why those viewings are important. They may want to find a visual way to convey these viewings - involving CGI design, etc. Even if you only do it with dialogue, the show will need a scene establishing what viewing she had and what it means.

While this can all be done, that's a lot of work to put into a character that we won't see again for close to two seasons.

27 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

Then Min goes to track him down, as she understands better than anyone that she doesn't really have a choice.  When she finally finds him, she spends weeks helping nurse him back to health, and begins to fall for him.  Then, Rand runs off and she has to go alert the Aes Sedai in Tar Valon, as she's really the only one that can.  When she finally meets up with him again, after the Waste arc, she never really leaves his side again.

The only thing that changes in my "re-write" is that Min doesn't have to track Rand down. She meets him in Fal Dara and is part of the expedition for the horn. 

The audience meets her and is exposed to her - not as "fated to fall for Rand" - but as the woman who is going to help track Padan Fain. We get introduced to her powers in that context.

Then the audience can be with Min as she has her vision of marrying him. They can feel her pain and root for her after she falls into the Portal World and watches Rand slobber all over Selene. [Alternatively, they can watch her as she wants to hate Rand for being such a boob with Selene, only to see her compassion for him win out when she determines to nurse him back to health.

33 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

Save the building up of romantic relationships for Rand for season 3 or 4, depending on how much they cut or mash up.  If they can make the Fall of the Stone a midseason climax and start that season with Rand in the mountains, and end it with the capture of Asmodean, they can get the beginnings of the relationships with all Three in one season.  Which would make things much more thematically consistent, and help put each of the Three on more even ground.  Min gets some time with him early on, then Elayne gets her time with him in Tear, and finally Aviendha gets to tear into him towards the end. 

And we're back in alignment because I agree 1000% with all of this. The story is right back in line with Jordan's plot. The Min/Rand romance develops along the same arc. All we've lost is Hurin, whose role later in the series can fall to any number of people.

[Incidentally, I see the fall of the Stone as a mid-season climax for a longer (maybe 10-12 episode) season 3 that ends with Rand's return from Rhuidean and the Battle of the Two Rivers.]

38 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

While I understand that some fans have their preferred lover for Rand, and would rather drop or minimize the romance with the other two, and enhance the romance with their preferred choice, I think that's a mistake.  If anything, the Three need to be given more equal prominence; some way should be contrived for Elayne to spend more time with Rand, probably later in the series, and Rand needs to be more conflicted and confused about three women who all love him romantically, and who he loves in return.  The Three play into an important archetype of the story as a foundation of myth and legend: they represent the Tri-partite Goddess, Maiden, Mother, Crone, she who must be pursued, she who must be protected, and she who must be listened to.  Once we begin to think of the Three as mere romantic opportunities for Rand that can be massaged to downplay some in favor of another, they lose that important, and I would argue necessary character.

I agree with this as well. I don't want to sacrifice any of them or even mess with the weird polyamory angle much. But I do think changing the viewers introductions to Elayne and Min will make Elayne and Min both better characters in the tv version.

1 hour ago, Thrasymachus said:

For one thing, I would have thought that Mat and Rand's flight down the Caemlyn Road could be cut, or greatly elided.  Yet we have announced casting for the Grinwells, which suggests it may not be. 

I've always thought the opposite. The reason I'm so adamant about keeping season 1 to book 1 is that I believe that approach is best designed to give us a great show.

Spending an episode or two with Mat and Rand on the Camelyn Road, Perrin and Egwene with the tinkers and the Whitecloaks, and with Nynaeve stuck with Moiraine gives viewers time with the characters before the power creep begins. Without that time to understand who the characters are at the beginning of the story, it makes it hard to care about where they end up.

1 hour ago, Thrasymachus said:

Make Nynaeve less of a shrill hypocrite with deep, unacknowledged self-doubt who nevertheless manages to do some of the most badass things in the story, and you no longer have Nynaeve.  Make Egwene less nakedly ambitious and driven, kinder to her friends and possessing a more vulnerable naivete, that would make her more likeable, would make her not Egwene.  

I don't think you have to take away Nynaeve's self-doubt or hypocrisy or even her temper to make her a little less shrill and annoying. You don't have to take away Egwene's ambition or calculated personality either. (My big nitpick with Egwene isn't her character arc, her personality, or her power. It's that she's so damn passive.)

1 hour ago, Thrasymachus said:

I'm also not afraid of the more uncomfortable aspects of the series.  I could see them getting milage out of making Tylin's rape of Mat even worse, to play up the gender-reversed power structure of the world. 

I'm not necessarily afraid of those aspects either. By including them, though, it is committing to a "mature" rating. Is that what you're hoping for? I was personally hoping for something a little more family friendly - appropriate for my two young teenagers.

1 hour ago, Thrasymachus said:

I also thing the fandom is getting ahead of itself.  We have no real reason to believe, yet, that the series will go beyond two seasons.  And if it does manage it, how many more seasons we'll get.  Right now, I'm pretty deeply skeptical there will be enough to be able to tell the whole story, even with lots and lots getting cut out.

I get that. But I am excited about the prospect of getting the whole story. Gotta express that enthusiasm!

1 hour ago, Thrasymachus said:

I'm ready for significant changes, and my only hope is that what results is good.  

Me too! And the choices they've made so far give me plenty of reasons for optimism. But then again, I was super excited for the Shannara series. That lasted all of about 10 minutes.

14 hours ago, Thrasymachus said:

 

I would argue much the same for the Wheel of Time.  What stories or themes don't really need to be told or explored?  What stories must be told, and what themes must be included, and what stories are mere elaborations, codas or provide additional emphasis to those themes and stories.  Those things can be cut.

I don't disagree with you. (Well, I disagree with your minimization of the changes Peter Jackson made to the LotR source material - but I agree that those changes were all for the good.) 

Where we seem to differ is whether the changes I've suggested change that which must be preserved.

For me, a wholly non-exclusive list that I'm just pulling from the top of my head of what must be kept looks like this:

Rand's entire character arc, specifically including his internal struggle with Lews Therin. [In season one, I would sacrifice Ba'alzamon's "DIE WORM" stuff for less overt, but more creepy dreams and make Rand's arc mostly about his fear of channeling/becoming a channeler]

All of the cultures and factions. No getting rid of the Seanchan or the Sea Folk. It must be faithful to the history of the Aiel and the Seanchan and deal seriously with the upheaval in those cultures. 

The Shadow. The Dark One and his minions should be terrifying and menacing, not softened for the sake of "realism". The Foresaken, on the other hand, should feel human (with all of the accompanying pettiness, backstabbing, etc) and be fully fleshed out characters. I don't think all of their plotting needs to stay in. In fact, I would be okay with getting rid of or combining a few of them. But some of the plotting and competing for Nae'blis ought to remain.

Certain plot points are obviously necessary: Shadar Logoth, Falme, Callandor and the Stone, the Finn, Rhuidean, Dumai's Wells, the Cleansing, the Last Battle.

As for the other main characters, I think all of their arcs can be fiddled with a little bit. For example: losing the Berelain/Faile love triangle; losing (or significantly revising) the Mat/Tylin relationship; softening Nynaeve; giving Egwene a bit more agency; etc. But all of the major plot elements should remain unchanged.

So Perrin still saves the Two Rivers, handles Masema, etc.

Nynaeve still heals Logain, takes on Moghedien, does the cleansing.

Egwene still becomes Amyrlin and unites the tower.

Mat still takes on the gholam and the Finn. You get the idea.

I'm happy to get as specific as you want. But there's just so much material, that coming up with an exhaustive list is rough. The only thing that I'm dead set on right now is the idea that season one should be basically book one.

6 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:Good adaptations, like Lord of the Rings, knows that they can cut things like Tom Bombadill, because it's not at all important for showing the main themes and character development of the beloved original material.

I completely agree. LotR is a “good adaptation”, but it changed several major things - for example Faramir’s character in that movie bears only passing resemblance to Tolkien’s version. The same is obviously true of Arwen. Heck, they even completely changed Frodo and Sam’s journey into Mordor. 
 

I guess changes are in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I’d rather keep Egeanin and Domon. 

1 minute ago, Thrasymachus said:

I don't really agree with any of those combos.  Aside from tracking Fain, which Perrin could do, and does take over doing, Hurin eventually serves the role of shaking Darth Rand out of his paranoia, and part of what eventually leads him to his Dragonmount epiphany.  Min is never in a position to take that place.  You gotta have someone who trusts Rand implicitly and is unwaveringly loyal to him early on, who Rand then doesn't see again until his darkness, paranoia and insanity is at a breaking point.  Min is with Rand almost the entire time after he leaves the Waste and sets up in Cairhein.  She's too close to him and too present in his life to play the same role Hurin does.  And she doesn't really need any additional help setting up or justifying her relationship with Rand.  Quite aside from the Viewings which make it not really a choice anyway, she spends the most time with him out of any of the Three.

 

I agree with all of this from the standpoint of the story - as it is told by the books. But I don't think you'll be able to necessarily tell that exact same story. More like a 'mirror world' version of the story, if you will.

Hurin is a character ripe for cutting. While I agree with you that his role at the end made sense in the story it didn't have to be Hurin who did it. Only - like you say - someone who is implicitly and unwaveringly loyal to Rand. For purposes of the tv show, getting through to Darth Rand can (and let's be honest, will) be tasked to someone more central. It's not going to be good tv for Rand's salvation to fall to a character that no one has seen for three seasons. 

As for Min - you are right in that she essentially had no choice but to fall for Rand. But that is hard to convey on screen, as opposed to in her mind like Jordan does.  Since she is so central to the story, I think you want viewers to engage with her from early on so they can see and experience her banter with Rand in a way you can't really achieve on screen.

Min's first appearance in the books is very brief and would amount to a scene, maybe two, before disappearing for a good long time. She's not reunited with Rand until long after that. That reunion is important because Rand has such fond memories for her based on their past encounter. But that past encounter won't have much meaning for viewers. If you give her a whole season with Rand in place of Hurin though - the whole relationship will be much more impactful on the screen.

14 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

Dena's role is to justify Thom's killing the King of Cairhein.  Aludra's role is to be the repository of Illuminator knowledge, and the source of the dragons, with a bit of a romantic tease for Mat.  But for destiny, Mat would probably have rather chosen Aludra over Tuon.  And destiny vs free-will is a big theme of the series and show.  Dena has to die to play her role.  Aludra has to live.  There's no room, or reason, to combine Dena with Aludra or anybody else.

Dena doesn't have to die to play her role. Thom just has to believe she's dead. Why couldn't the king being blamed for the explosion at the illuminator's chapter house - presumably killing Dena/Aludra - serve the same function? Again, this gives the audience a chance to really develop an affinity for the character (by bringing her in early on). It leaves plenty of room for a love triangle with Tuon. But this one will have a little more impact because viewers would have a longer, more intimate relationship with the character.

26 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

Likewise, Dain's focus on capturing Perrin is motivated by his father Geofram's death.  Without that death, Dain lacks the motivation to pursue Perrin as relentlessly as he does, or stick it out in the Two Rivers as long as the Whitecloaks do.  And it's important for Dain to not be present for the events which leads to Geofram's initial capture of Perrin and the events that lead to Geofram's death, instead hearing about it second-hand through Byar.  That's what sets up the possibility of his ultimate character growth in becoming Perrin's ally, even more than his loyalty to Galad.

I grant this one would require changing a character arc. I think there was a lot of untapped potential in the Whitecloaks. This would definitely require a more substantial rewrite of their role. Although, I think Fain's influence could preserve Dain's arc if he begins as sympathetic toward Perrin, is corrupted by Fain, and is then redeemed.

Are there any combination characters you'd consider? I get the sense you're hoping for an adaptation that tends more toward the literal than towards major changes.

As much as we'd all love it if no characters were sacrificed, it's clearly impossible. So, just for fun, what are your ideas for characters who could be combined. Here are three ideas:

(1) Min + Hurin

Hurin is needed only for his ability to track Padan Fain. But Min's viewings are flexible enough where the writers could substitute her. Bonus: the relationship between Min and Rand can develop on screen rather than being based on a single quick interaction.

(2) Dena + Aludra

Aludra is a low-key critical character, who sort of bounces around on the margins of the story. Giving her a relationship with Thom (maybe making them a performing team) gets her into the story in a less random way and makes her potentially more memorable when she pops up later on.

(3) The Bornhalds

The whole Dain/Geofram thing is unnecessary. A single Bornhald makes more sense for the tv series.

What do y'all think?

I was watching "Yellowstone" last night. Kelsey Chow would be perfect for Faile.

On 3/8/2020 at 3:35 AM, imlad said:

A casting idea that has just occurred to me (while watching The Magicians) that I wish could happen, but probably can't (since she's involved in the above show, assuming she doesn't exit at the end of this current season) is Stella Maeve for Faile.

I liked her for Elayne. 

And what about Natalie Dormer for Selene/Lanfear?

18 hours ago, Thrasymachus said:

What is going on here?  I don't understand how this level of thread-necromancy has become so common.  Are people just doing Google searches now that the TV show is reaching more mainstream levels of consciousness and not realizing they're replying to threads that are half a decade or more (or much more) old?

I think that about sums it up. 

18 hours ago, Thrasymachus said:

Moiraine's sudden change of direction, and the reasons for it, are one of the few plot elements that actually do become more relevant in the rest of the series. 

I get what you're saying. But you can keep Moiraine's change of direction reasons as part of the story without making it the whole reason. My objections are more to how clunky it feels that the only reason to go to Fal Dara is because its on the way to somewhere that they don't know exactly how to get to. 

My change gives them a reason to specifically go to Fal Dara. Moiraine can remain confident that they will find the eye, be aware of its significance, etc. and just be confident that they will find it as they battle through the blight toward Fal Dara.

I'm also trying to get Min into the story and have an onscreen relationship with Rand that feels real. With a few tweaks, Min can replace Hurin which will allow her and Rand to bond and add some drama to the Selene/portal stone part...

On 7/3/2020 at 4:41 PM, Thrasymachus said:

Moiraine is explicit that no one knows why the Eye was created.  If it was to re-seal the Dark One's prison, why hide a seal in the bottom of it, where it wouldn't be revealed until after it was used up?  And she later questions whether it was intended for the use to which it was put, or for some other reason.

 

The EotW is a good introduction to the characters, but it's almost wholly disconnected from the larger plot.  The Dark One's army at Tarwin's Gap exists only to raise the stakes for Moiraine and Lan, and to be destroyed by Rand.  Ishamael didn't want Rand to channel it, he was freaking out when Rand was channelling it.  And he certainly didn't want to be the one to kill the Dark One.  He wanted utter annihilation.

I agree with the notion that you have to change the whole plot point regarding the Eye. For the tv series, the fact that Rand can channel should be a big enough reveal. Tarwin's Gap doesn't really have to happen.

I would plot it slightly differently for tv:

Rather than going to the Eye on the basis of dreams, rumors and Moiraine's intuition what if...

Moiraine second guesses her plan to take everyone to Tar Valon after Shadar Logoth (because of Logain maybe). She really wants more clarity and would like to take the boys to see a girl she knows in Fal Dara who sees visions. When she finds Loial in Camelyn, she remembers the Ways and talks him into using them.

Only the Waygate is located barely inside the blight and they have to fight their way out to get to Fal Dara. During that journey, they stumble on the Eye (because Ta'veren). There's a fight at the Eye. Rand channels consciously. They find the dragon banner, seal and horn.

Then they ride into Fal Dara. Ah, safe at last. We meet Min. We meet Agelmar. They capture Fain. The season ends with Siuan arriving. Everyone is terrified Rand will be gentled. And Fain escapes with the Horn.

Lots of people see season one extending well into tGH. I don't see it - casting decisions, episode titles, and leaked set photos notwithstanding. And more importantly, I think that if the show is going to be the best that it can be, it needs to stick to Book 1 for season 1.

I say "the best that it can be" because there is simply no way for a tv series - no matter how well done - to be a scene-for-scene duplication of the books. It's not possible and would also suck. But a truly great show will preserve Jordan's world building, main characters, and plot. It needs to be written to be an engaging, entertaining show for people who have not read the books. That, in turn, means that it has to be structured and paced for a television audience.

Amazon doesn't want just another show. They are looking for Emmys and "Game of Thrones" type buzz. The source material can give it to them if executed correctly. Here are 5 reasons why sticking mostly to book one is the best choice:

(1) BUYING TIME

Special effects, makeup, costumes, set design. These things take time. Each time you add a location, these issues come into play. Jordan's world is vast. The various ways the One Power is utilized is going to require thousands of man hours of special effects work. Not to mention the careful planning required to make sure that the various production elements are flexible enough to accommodate the addition of multiple cultures, new fantasy elements, and power creep. 

By sticking to book one, the producers limit the number of production elements. This will allow them to get these few elements just right and allowing the design team time to get the new elements right too. Think about it this way - would you rather rush ahead to the battle of Falme? Or would you rather have the special effects for that battle carefully developed and redeveloped over the course of a couple of years? Patience will pay huge dividends.

(2) ACCESSIBILITY

One of the problems with fantasy tv adaptations is that they aren't accessible to fans outside the genre. Game of Thrones succeeded by keeping the fantastic elements mostly to the sidelines. That's really not an option for the Wheel of Time. What is an option is introducing the fantasy elements slowly - gradually allowing viewers to get accustomed to the fantastic elements. Fortunately, in this regard the writers can simply follow Robert Jordan's lead.

New viewers will begin in a familiar place a quaint village where everyone seems pretty normal. They then get to learn about the "rules" of this new world alongside the Emond's Fielders as they flee from a supernatural attack. By sticking to Eye of the World, writers can allow viewers to grow in their knowledge of the world along with the main characters.

(3) MORE CHARACTER - LESS EXPOSITION

This is closely related to (2)...

Characters are the key to good television. A gripping plot is good - necessary even. But without characters that viewers can invest in, a show simply can't be great. Sticking to Book One is the best vehicle for doing this, because it allows the writer to focus on really developing the Emond's Field five.

As the group runs for their lives, viewers will get to learn who these people are and become connected with them. The characters know just as little about what's happening to them as the viewers do (think of "Walking Dead" or "Stranger Things"), so when the viewer encounters something foreign - like a Trolloc - the character is learning about it at the same time the viewer is. 

But viewers also want to understand how the characters relate to one another, how they are different from one another, and where they are in conflict. The farther the writers try to push the plot, the less time there is for slow moments where the characters can interact with one another and the more time that must be devoted to exposition - explaining why things are happening instead of experiencing them.   

(4) PLOT & PACING

Eye of the World paces perfectly over 8 episodes as a horror/thriller. The first several episodes are simply about staying alive. First, as a group and then (after Shadar Logoth) separately. Then, when the group reunites in Camelyn it becomes about keeping Mat alive. It's simple and straightforward - not much thinking required about what is happening.

That, in turn, allows for time to set up the mysteries, plots, and unanswered questions that will serve to keep people intrigued. Writers should want viewers asking questions: (Who is this Dragon guy? Is he good or bad? Is it Rand? or Mat? Or Perrin? What are Moiraine's motives? Is Nynaeve right to distrust her?) They should want viewers to be worried when they find out that Rand can channel. (He's going to go crazy! He's going to turn evil! He's going to be gentled!)

If people who are new to the series aren't buzzing about these types of questions, the writers will have missed a huge opportunity...

(5) NO NEED FOR SPEED

Many people look at the sheer volume of the written work and assume that writers must do two books at a time to avoid a 13 or 14 season series. But that's just not true at all.

First, the length of Jordan's prose is not a good indicator. Jordan is overly descriptive. What he takes 5 pages to describe exists instantly on screen. Jordan also spends a good amount of time inside characters heads, something that it will be up to the actors to depict. And there are numerous vignettes and side scenes that will undoubtedly be cut from a tv adaptation.

More importantly though, the later books are much more easily condensed. Plot lines can be tightened to where Mat's time in Ebou Dar which takes place over the course of three books can easily be handled in two or three episodes. It is perfectly feasible to not go much beyond EotW in Season One and yet still complete the series in 7 or 8 seasons.

Besides, what fan of the books wouldn't want Season 1 to end with Padan Fain escaping with the Horn?

What do y'all think?

I'm brand new here and wanted to say hi.

I've been reading the series since almost the beginning (EotW and tGH) were my only paperbacks, the rest were purchased in hardback on publication. I've listened to the excellent audiobooks a couple of times as well. 

I'm very optimistic about the tv series and since the Coronavirus hit, I've been spending some of my new found free time have been working my way through the series again trying to predict how the show might play out. I'm looking forward to posting some of my theories and chatting with y'all about it.

I did, didn't I?

I think it would fall toward the end of season 5 or beginning of season 6. 

I've thought about this quite a bit, actually. I think they'll break the series down (roughly) this way:

Season 1 = Book 1

The season ends with Fain escaping with the Horn and Siuan's unlikely support of Rand.

Season 2 = Book 2

The season ends with the epic battle between the Seanchan and the Heroes of the Horn and Rand's fight in the sky.

Season 3 = Books 3 & 4

Rand takes the Stone in the middle of the season and proclaims himself. The season ends with Rand returning from Rhuidean and Perrin leading the battle of the Two Rivers.

Season 4 = Books 5 & 6

The season begins with Rand's battle with Couladin and ends at Dumai's Wells.

Season 5 = Books 7-9

The season starts at Dumai's Wells* but is focused more on Mat, Nynaeve and Elayne and ends with the Seanchan attack on Ebou Dar. Cliffhanger ending where Faile gets captured and we don't know whether Mat survived.

* this is going to be a turning point where Rand becomes an antagonist as he loses his sanity following Dumai's Wells. In my vision, the show starts setting up Rand as a potential villain.

Season 6 = Books 10 & 11

Elayne takes the throne; Perrin rescues Faile; Mat marries Tuon. The season ends with the meeting between Rand and Tuon and with Egwene being captured.

Seasons 7 & 8 = Books 12-14

This could be broken over two seasons or done in one, depending on the popularity and profitability of the show. 

I think the show will try to stick to the major plot points and the major character arcs. But because Jordan's tends to write a ton of internal monologue, I suspect that there won't be too many scenes that are lifted directly from the book.

Hopefully the writers focus on creating scenes and dialogue that move the plot forward, but focus primarily on developing the characters and the relationships between them.